Some Final Questions Before Shooting #2 and #3! Colour Balancing/Grading + more

[Craig McKenna]

Hi everyone,

As you're all aware, I'm getting into wedding videography, but I'm still very much a learner. I have two weddings within the next week and I'm shooting with a Panasonic X800, GH3 and GH4 (with an Olympus EM 5 as a back up).

I have two tripods, a monopod and a slider. 3 lavalier mics and 5 pocket recorders; along with a range of lenses from wide to portrait (24mm to 150mm equivalent FF).

My questions:

1). How do you think I can improve upon my first wedding film?

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Password: 170414

Focus point, colour and more creative shots are my main three areas for improvement (I think?)

2) Do you always shoot 'flat' and colour balance / grade afterwards? If so, what software do you use? I have Final Cut Pro X and I've done a small amount of colour balancing / grading in my first film, but not in the short film - for the long form edit. I shot with the settings baked in camera and didn't think to shoot flat.

3) I am shooting in a converted barn on Thursday. There is a podium for the speakers to the left of the aisle, so I will be shooting off to the right. There will be two speakers during the ceremony, who will move to the opposite end of the barn (away from me), so I'll be shooting across the b&g and officiant then - problematic. Therefore, I'm thinking of setting up one tripod at the back, facing the speakers (place the Panasonic X800 here and let it roll), whilst using a monopod for the aisle shot of the entrants, and leaving the GH3 locked off on a tripod and focused on the bride and groom at the front, where I'll tilt at times when I deem necessary - rings etc. I'll be getting reaction shots with the monopod after that. Does this sound like my best option? The only downside is that the groom's side will be missed. I'm tempted to set up the EM5 on the ground, as a wide, to the left of the aisle and leaving it there. The ceremony is less than thirty minutes, so provided I start it off close to the start, I should be fine.

4) Any lavalier tips for mic'ing the groom? I've purchased Sony M10s and Sanken COS 11Ds. I'm thinking inside pocket, first aid taping up to the collar with a loop inside the collar and using the Rycote Stickies and Undercovers to secure the mic. Setting my levels to around 6 (which is just above half way on the M10) to ensure the bride gets picked up. Placing a small pocket recorder to the side of the aisle - maybe even two of those. And then a pocket recorder where the speakers will be - rather than mic'ing them up beforehand.

Thanks for any helpful tips - you were all amazing for my first wedding and the reason for its small success was largely down to everyone here and the helpful videos I purchased at Creative Live. So thank you and thank you for your continued support.

Still shooting weddings for free, but hopefully these will be my last two and then I'm going to re-edit the three weddings with licensed music and create my own website.

Craig

[Robert Benda]

I can't watch the video right now, but can mention a few things about your questions:

2) I haven't used Final Cut, though I assume it can do what you want for color grading. This should help you:
https://fstoppers.com/post-productio...c-imagery-9545

3) Sounds like a nice plan. If I shoot 2 camera, one is in back, pre-focused on the groom's spot for the hand-off. I crouch at the front with the monopod, to get everyone's faces coming in. At some point, if there is an opening, turn and get the 'hero shot' of the groom (looking up at him, using a wide lens). That always seems nice. Then, once the bride is 2/3 of the way up, I usually retreat to the side and get the side shot of the hand off, and stay out of the way.

For reaction/crowd shots, maybe during readings or such, move to the other side for a few minutes? Not sure.

That leaves vows/rings as the big thing to get. I really, really like tight shots of their faces to capture as much emotion as possible. Whatever you need to do for that, that's what I'd go for.

4) You might be making the mic'ing up too hard. coat pocket is usually good unless your recorder is bulky, then go pants pocket. I put the mic on the inside of his coat lapel so it just barely sticks out from inside. Its equally discreet but gets his voice well, too. I'm using a 'Matchstick microphone' which is nice and tiny, held in place with fabric tape.

Volume is a whole other thing and each recorder/mic is different, never mind the people speaking. I have mine on Auto.

When I first hit record, when mic'ing him up, I have the headphones on to confirm, and I have him say his name and the date, which is nice later, if files ever get jumbled up.

A pocket recorder wherever the readings are happening, any singers, and I prefer to use a wireless mic on the pastor/celebrant, and send that to my aisle camera, which is my master audio, so to speak, the one I sync everything to later.

If I can't (or they won't), I'll sometimes get the feed out of the church mixer (carry your own cables!) or use a speaker in the back of the church, or have, in a big catholic church, placed a pocket recorder on the side of the pew where no one is sitting. The acoustics are usually good in the center/center.

[Kyle Root]

Concur with above.

For color, I use this DSC Labs chart I got from BH

DSC Labs FrontBox OneShot Dailies Reference Chart FBOS B&H Photo

Really makes matching cameras a more repeatable and easy process.

For audio, I use 2 Sennheiser G3s. I also will use a tascam dr05 and a $20 lapel mic as a backup if I can.

Otherwise I use the 05 and DR40 to get relevant music (string quartet or piano etc)

On cam mics for everything else.

[Peter Riding]

Converted barn so civil ceremony. The EM5 30 min / 2gb max file size could be relatively easy to deal with because there will be parts of the ceremony where you can move across to it and deliberately stop then restart recording. But make sure you really do restart it - all too easy in the heat of the moment to not press it enough or press it twice by mistake; we've all done that and learned the hard way. You may be able to attend to it whilst a speaker is making their way to the back of the barn and all eyes are on them. Or just as the signing of the register is about to start etc.

I would definitely place recorders close to the speakers locations. If they look bad tape a lav to the lectern if there is one and drop the recorder down out of sight. You may stress to the speakers that they must do their bit from the allocated position and not be tempted to wander around - as some do due to nerves. Sometimes they will go on completely the wrong side, or be directed to the wrong place by the celebrant so maybe check with the registrar as well.

If you try to hide lavs you increase the risk of a poor recording exponentially. In film and TV that may not matter as the audio will be constantly monitored and can be corrected mid-shoot. No such luxury with weddings. You also risk spooking the inexperienced talent if you are fusing around taping up etc rather than just clipping a lav to a lapel. The lav does not look particularly out of place except in setpiece posed stills.

As regards shooting flat I wonder how many people still do that for their wedding work rather than just for their own personal projects of no commercial value or destination. It was sort of the received wisdom when the 5DII started to take off, as when GoPro introduced their pro....something recording option. I thought about this very subject when watching Channel 4's spellbinding Utopia. The grading is highly stylised and pronounced ..... and excellent, in perfect unison with the bizarre storyline. But for someone's wedding video - do they really want anything other than a watchable emotional video of acceptable technical quality. If you are dealing with extremes of dynamic range or white balance sources etc that may be a reason to give yourself the extra wiggle room in post just as with still sit would be good advice to shoot RAW.

Pete

[Robert Benda]

Originally Posted by Peter Riding

As regards shooting flat I wonder how many people still do that for their wedding work rather than just for their own personal projects of no commercial value or destination..... If you are dealing with extremes of dynamic range or white balance sources etc that may be a reason to give yourself the extra wiggle room in post just as with still sit would be good advice to shoot RAW.

I found this is the reason to shoot flat. Don't let the camera/codec do the work, and save yourself a bit more info to be brought out later. If you do it in camera, its harder to change.

If I don't end up having any problems, color grading is simple. I apply 2 effects to the entire timeline group (curves and saturation) for sure. I'll group each location or lighting issue on a timeline to do it all at once, instead of each clip. So, church is on one timeline, with curves and saturation applied the same to it all. Outdoor clips are another group, on a different timeline, but they get their own group effect applied.

I hope that makes sense. I've found it makes a difference often enough that I won't trust to 'in camera' anymore. Never know when you'll run into that spotlight of sunlight coming in, washing out a spot, for instance, that we were talking about in another thread.

[Craig McKenna]

Thank you to everyone for your replies - really helpful and useful information!

Unfortunately, the bride and groom want no mics to be shown, so I guess it's a case of inside coat pocket and running it as close to the end of the jacket as possible? I have Rycote undercovers to stop rustle from the jacket etc. and I'm just going to practise mic'ing in different parts of the body... will see what the results are.

I have a matchstick microphone too, Robert. Thanks a lot for your tips!!!

Thanks Peter, those tips are amazing! I'm going to use that tip to hide the recorder and place a lav on the mic itself, which is positioned on the lectern. I completely concur with your comments about the hiding of the lav, but I guess with shooting these weddings for free, I have to accept the bride and groom's wishes with regards to the hiding of the mics and just hope I can pull it off in post.

I've decided to shoot with both GH's on a customised standard setting with the usual settings that people recommend for a mostly flat image. It's a shame I can't shoot both with the GH4, as then I could use the Cinelike D option, but never mind.

My only considerations that I have left are for the speeches - surely mic'ing three people is not to be advised? Therefore, I think I'm going to go with table top recorders again, they worked well last time at least. As well as using the speakers as much as possible.

I'll be back tomorrow night to let you know how everything went!!! Fingers' crossed. :)

Thanks again everyone!

[Robert Benda]

Got to watch the video, and its very nice work, especially for a beginner. Here are the few tips or questions I've got. As you can see, nothing terrible, just small things since its nice work you're doing:
In my experience, brides often prefer few pre-makeup shots, for obvious reasons :).
More important, she looks over exposed. Not so much you couldn't easily add in some color to her (and everyone's) faces.
You can see a real exposure/brightness difference at 1:44 between the 2 camera angles.
Are you shooting in Auto modes? When they exit the ceremony, they look a little dim, I assumed because of the bright background.
I find the constant slow-motion a bit much.
If this a simple teaser, its fine, otherwise, I'd want more live audio, like the vows/rings, and any of the speeches.

And for the good stuff:
I actually like the use of black and white at the end.
Really like the close ups up faces and hands used throughout.

What will you be delivering to your clients? Personally, we make 15 minutes highlight trailers - enough to include all the big moments in full, like vows/rings, and speech highlights, and short enough they'll watch it more than once. We also do the documentary style full length video, too.

2 pieces of fabric tape to hold it in place, and I've never had that matchstick head microphone rustle. Only the very tip of it sticks out at all. The brides love it, its so discreet.

For speeches, if you have that many pocket recorders, than mic'ing each person *might* be your best option. When I've done table top mics, I tend to pick up too much glass clinking, and other noise. Otherwise, pulling from the sound system directly is best. I did see one videographer who taped their mic to the handheld, and let the transmitter dangle. We all had to simple deal with it.

[Peter Riding]

Unfortunately, the bride and groom want no mics to be shown

Too late for this wedding but for future reference: many clients have a wholly justifiable fear that having video will involve loads of intrusive equipment ruining the ambience. And the way that many videographers work ...... well they're not wrong! In consultations I say that I may ask the groom to put on a small mic rather like the little ones they see TV newsreaders wearing. I don't dwell on it. Sometimes I play a few seconds of sample tracks from different sources to illustrate what a big difference it can make; this is especially good if you include a cameras onboard mic track as it show how poor an "uncle bob" version would be in comparison. Then on the day just pull out the lav like its a fate accompli. Don't think about laving the bride, not gonna happen, except in very particular circumstances such as a gay marriage where one or more of the girls wears a suit or similar rather than a big white dress. In the consultation I also mention that I hide miniature recorders. Again this is reassuring. And you do of course hide them - in flowers etc and for the wedding breakfast speeches move a few table decorations / wine bottles a bit to hide them from view.

Micing 3 people is fine if you have the time and they have the inclination. This can be especially desirable if they are speaking into a venue mic that is in turn delivering to nasty room speakers. Otherwise I prefer table-top if you can get the recorders close. Beware of round tables as the speakers are likely to swivel around to address the various guests, and of speakers who may not deliver from where you are expecting them to stand. Table-top does give you some redundancy though e.g. if a groom and father of the bride are close to each other, and they can capture unexpected speakers like an impromptu from the bride. Table top can be good for including ambient crowd audio and guests shouting funny stuff; I had one near Bristol and most guests had travelled from London, someone shouted "are we getting petrol money" :- )

Pete

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Robert Benda

Got to watch the video, and its very nice work, especially for a beginner. Here are the few tips or questions I've got. As you can see, nothing terrible, just small things since its nice work you're doing:
In my experience, brides often prefer few pre-makeup shots, for obvious reasons :).
More important, she looks over exposed. Not so much you couldn't easily add in some color to her (and everyone's) faces.
You can see a real exposure/brightness difference at 1:44 between the 2 camera angles.
Are you shooting in Auto modes? When they exit the ceremony, they look a little dim, I assumed because of the bright background.
I find the constant slow-motion a bit much.
If this a simple teaser, its fine, otherwise, I'd want more live audio, like the vows/rings, and any of the speeches.

And for the good stuff:
I actually like the use of black and white at the end.
Really like the close ups up faces and hands used throughout.

What will you be delivering to your clients? Personally, we make 15 minutes highlight trailers - enough to include all the big moments in full, like vows/rings, and speech highlights, and short enough they'll watch it more than once. We also do the documentary style full length video, too.

2 pieces of fabric tape to hold it in place, and I've never had that matchstick head microphone rustle. Only the very tip of it sticks out at all. The brides love it, its so discreet.

For speeches, if you have that many pocket recorders, than mic'ing each person *might* be your best option. When I've done table top mics, I tend to pick up too much glass clinking, and other noise. Otherwise, pulling from the sound system directly is best. I did see one videographer who taped their mic to the handheld, and let the transmitter dangle. We all had to simple deal with it.

Thanks a lot Robert for watching the video! This was for a friend and the bride wanted no audio in the film at all :/ But she did want the ceremony and speeches as extras, but she wanted no mics anywhere for the ceremony lol So I had to deliver on board mics for the ceremony and spent close to forever trying to perfect the sound for them. As it was for a friend, I didn't mind spending a long time on their film. I have a career in teaching, so this was only meant to be a side project, but I loved it so much that I am thinking of pursuing it full time.

Thanks for the tip on pre-make up shots! :)

Thanks! I actually did no colour correction or changing of exposures for the four minute film... now I'm realising that I should have paid closer attention... I was trusting the in-camera meter too much... I am still learning exposure, but I shoot in full manual with white balance set to auto.

Yes, the camcorder, which was my second cam, was set to auto. It was also changing its exposure throughout because of a window at the back of the shot - it was terrible!!! But now I'm shooting with the camcorder as my fourth camera and hoping to make use of two GH cameras (3&4) and an EM5 for the front of the ceremony tomorrow. I'm unsure how to recover such terrible exposure differences and also how to recover the image quality? I think it's close to impossible, so I'm thinking of buying another camera for next year, as weddings 2 and 3 are my last of the year!

I would really like to shoot in 30p at my next wedding, but the bride and groom have seen my first film and have asked for slow motion. I don't think I can change this for the wedding tomorrow. For my weddings next year, I'll only shoot slow motion when necessary.

As I'm still an amateur, I've only promised to deliver a four minute video, speeches and the ceremony. It's something I'm doing in my spare time for free, to clients who would otherwise have no video at all. However, as the couple have requested audio tomorrow, I am hoping to do re-edit in the future, using more audio.

I'd love to eventually move on to fifteen minute films, and may do so with the couple's footage in the future! I am shooting alone though, so I don't know how much great footage I will capture! Hoping to get a lot more tomorrow though, as I was also a groomsmen on the day that I filmed my first wedding!

Thanks a lot for all of your tips. I guess my final question would be whether or not I can let 60p roll in normal speed, or whether it looks really weird? I kinda want to shoot *some* slow mo, and the rest at normal speed... I feel like I can do this more at my next wedding, but it's difficult when they've watched my only film and said, 'we want that.' :-)

Thanks for your supportive comments though!!! And for all of your help so far! :-)

Originally Posted by Peter Riding

Unfortunately, the bride and groom want no mics to be shown

Too late for this wedding but for future reference: many clients have a wholly justifiable fear that having video will involve loads of intrusive equipment ruining the ambience. And the way that many videographers work ...... well they're not wrong! In consultations I say that I may ask the groom to put on a small mic rather like the little ones they see TV newsreaders wearing. I don't dwell on it. Sometimes I play a few seconds of sample tracks from different sources to illustrate what a big difference it can make; this is especially good if you include a cameras onboard mic track as it show how poor an "uncle bob" version would be in comparison. Then on the day just pull out the lav like its a fate accompli. Don't think about laving the bride, not gonna happen, except in very particular circumstances such as a gay marriage where one or more of the girls wears a suit or similar rather than a big white dress. In the consultation I also mention that I hide miniature recorders. Again this is reassuring. And you do of course hide them - in flowers etc and for the wedding breakfast speeches move a few table decorations / wine bottles a bit to hide them from view.

Micing 3 people is fine if you have the time and they have the inclination. This can be especially desirable if they are speaking into a venue mic that is in turn delivering to nasty room speakers. Otherwise I prefer table-top if you can get the recorders close. Beware of round tables as the speakers are likely to swivel around to address the various guests, and of speakers who may not deliver from where you are expecting them to stand. Table-top does give you some redundancy though e.g. if a groom and father of the bride are close to each other, and they can capture unexpected speakers like an impromptu from the bride. Table top can be good for including ambient crowd audio and guests shouting funny stuff; I had one near Bristol and most guests had travelled from London, someone shouted "are we getting petrol money" :- )

Pete

Hahaha! Thanks Pete! I am realising that I'm bending a little too much to clients, because in essence, they're doing me a favour, allowing me to gain experience.

Great tips on playing example audio too!!!

Haha @ are we getting petrol money! :-) I will definitely hide the table top mics and they're going to be my back up audio source.

Unfortunately, even with all of my investments, I still fear 'mic'ing the board' and so haven't invested in a Zoom H6 or any other recorder with the potential to mic into the board. I fear doing so because I still have little idea as to ports and things.

Thanks for all of your tips Pete. Some amazing ones like the round table etc. I guess I will ask the speakers to see if they'd be interested in being mic'd up.

Here's to hoping! :0)

[Robert Benda]

Keep it up, Craig. You'll keep learning. Just keep some notes on what to include in your contract (like the mics), and you'll do great.

I like the slow motion, just not through out the entire thing, so no worries.

If you like the idea of longer films, I know there are some great examples from members of this board. As for "nice" examples, here are ours: Wedding Videography | RNB Weddings by Robert & Nomani Benda

It's really just your best 5 minutes of pre-ceremony, processional, anything interesting from the ceremony (if anything), vows/rings, kiss, pronouncement, recessional. Over there, I guess the signing of the registrar, too (we don't have that in the states). Then any bits from the reception, if you're there.

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Robert Benda

Keep it up, Craig. You'll keep learning. Just keep some notes on what to include in your contract (like the mics), and you'll do great.

I like the slow motion, just not through out the entire thing, so no worries.

If you like the idea of longer films, I know there are some great examples from members of this board. As for "nice" examples, here are ours: Wedding Videography | RNB Weddings by Robert & Nomani Benda

It's really just your best 5 minutes of pre-ceremony, processional, anything interesting from the ceremony (if anything), vows/rings, kiss, pronouncement, recessional. Over there, I guess the signing of the registrar, too (we don't have that in the states). Then any bits from the reception, if you're there.

Thanks Robert... I am thinking about whether or not I can shoot some footage at 30p and see if they would notice about the difference... I do agree that it was 'death by slow-mo'... if tomorrow's is the same, then at least I can switch this up on Tuesday - Tuesday is a Chinese wedding, which should be chock-full of exciting moments... will see though!

Sounds great to include mics in the contract... I've been looking online to find example contracts, and know that if you pay on one website, they're willing to give you copies of a number of different ones... I'll just focus on the weddings first, and then sort out my contracts before I open a website!

Thanks! I'm going to check out your films now!

Sounds easy enough, but I'm going to see how much footage I can capture tomorrow.. I'm going to get more b-roll and outside shots, as there are two venues (mother's house and a range of different converted barns) tomorrow. Will be nice if I can capture the arrival of the vehicles too, as the first wedding I shot didn't have cars. Otherwise, I guess like you say, I'll keep learning.

Do you think it's overkill to be in the possession of a tripod facing the bride and groom and a monopod for reactions? I don't want to overwhelm guests with cameras... one at the back, one on the floor shooting the groom's side and one on a tripod facing the bride... with a monopod for reaction shots... I seem pretty boxed in as it's a really tight venue with no aisle other than the main one in the middle.

*EDIT*

Watched your film Robert and I loved:

The music (really great choices... seemed seamless... I never really noticed the changes, just knew that I was changing scene and moving into another nice moment).
The shallow depth of field shots (particularly the rings).
The story - brilliantly told, i.e. perfect (almost) great ending to cap with that too!!!
The audio - I really dislike non-instrumental tracks with voice overs, yet you managed to walk the line perfectly and show how that skill is meant to be used. So often you watch wedding films and the audio is fighting (music vs speakers) and it destroys the film. Here, it was captured perfectly.

Thanks for sharing your film with me, I love watching longer edits that can maintain the viewer's interest!

[Robert Benda]

Thank you for that. Yes, lyrics and voice over are tough. There are two songs I have in my library that I will use underneath vows because, well, they're so... delicate, I think is the word, that they suit the moment so well, and can almost dissolve into the background (If I turn them down enough).

For cameras, I would love to have 4. We do use 3. One in the back, usually in the aisle (not fond of balconies). And one off to each side, up front, to try and get the closeups during vows/rings, and during the rest, guest shots, and/or closeups of the celebrant, readers, etc.

You only need a couple of cut away shots to make things really interesting. 5-10 second clips (I think of them as our equivalent of a photograph), same as shooting a detail. Get 5 of them, and you can do some nice things. So if you have 3 cameras, and know your other 2 are getting the ceremony, you take camera 3 and try to get more of those great closeups, like you already do.

Here is a (sloppy) video I put together to show another videographer some of what we *try* to do with our 3 camera setup. Sorry - I mixed 24 and 30 fps footage, so there is some noticeable issues later on. I was working with what I had on my computer, without digging into the archives too much.

Untitled on Vimeo