Hey guys. Looking to spend $2000 on wedding/event video camera(s)

[Christopher Ellington]

Hey guys. This is about making a freelance investment, so please forgive the length, but it's my first time finding a forum to ask this question. I have been growing in wedding photography and videography for a few years now. It hasn't been my primary source of income and not sure if it will be, however it's a part of my freelance. I'd say I've averaged about 2 weddings a year on word of mouth and no advertising.

I have a wedding coming up in October for a couple (word of mouth, they reached out to me) and they've decided to go with me for photo and video. My best friend and I have been amateurishly tag teaming video and video/photography for many years for music events, a music video, church events and a few weddings.

We started with Canon HV20s doing dual camera stuff. He's been taking a break from the market and still has his. I sold mine a long while ago for a DSLR. I bought and shot with the Nikon D7000 for a while, had to sell it and then ended up with a Canon 7D. I've done wedding videos with the both of those.

However I am now interested in keeping my DSLR to focus on photography and only using the video when needed for specific things, shallow DOF, etc) and having a dedicated camcorder or two for the video (longer continuous record times, video features, less worry about sensor issues, handling of motion, etc). My last wedding video, I did alone. My Canon 7D was my main video camera. At the last minute, I threw $100 on a cheap, used Sony Handycam as a backup, secondary. It proved useful at the ceremony because the SECOND the bride started walking down the pathway (outside), my DSLR didn't function and came up with an error when I hit record. Luckily I had the $100 handy cam running at that time for an overall show or I would have missed it. After controlling the handy cam on the tripod for the walk, I stepped asside to unscrew my DSLR from the rig, remove the battery, put it back in, and then it functioned. I looked up the error code and hear that sometimes it can happen when you have a third party lens on the DSLR. I had a Rokinon 85mm. So I want to avoid stuff like that and have a dedicated camcorder.

What I seek advice on is what you guys might recommend. Note that I've done a lot of research and have some that seem to me like leading candidates. But after all of the reading, spec sheets, youtube/vimeo videos and Amazon reviews, I feel like what's missing are direct/current opinions from you guys (vs reviews of a year or so ago, etc) based on what I need before I make that "get it in your hands" trip to B&H where they'll probably just try to sell me anything or ignore me unless I'm spending that day.

I am looking to spend in the $2000 range, give or take. I am open to new, but have been considering used in order to get a good prosumer/low level professional camcorder that maybe came out a couple/few years ago within my price range. Manual controls, multiple card slots, low light, and all. Part of me is interested in investing in one very good $2000 camera. Another part is seeing if I can get two cameras for around that price.

1) Is there a used prosumer/professional camera that you would recommend in that $2000 price range?
2) If I became set on having two cameras for multi cam purposes, should I focus on getting two of the same? Or might I be ok getting a $1400 camera and a $600 camera for instance?
3) My biggest concern is getting a camera so old that it won't be a sharp as I am expecting
4) I'd prefer not to deal with miniDVs again and hoping that SD/CF/Sony card systems all work fast enough for HD
5) The 4K for 2K camcorders coming out soon seem nice, but wondering if that's overkill or a great future investment. I could see myself using it mainly 1920x1080, but 4K for specifics.
6) As a photographer, I do like manual controls/buttons
7) I know I have to consider the other "accessories" for backups (extra batteries, storage cards, etc). However I plan to get those along the way over the next couple of months. For example, purchase an extra battery and SD/CF card every other time I get paid. I am not necessarily concerns with having to purchase backups with the initial order.

Here is a list of the camcorders I've done some research on and have my eye right now:

Ones that have been standing out as I read reviews, watch videos, etc
Sony FDR-AX100 (leading) (4K camera for $1999 coming out this month)
Canon HF G30 (leading)
Canon XA10 (leading)
Canon XF100 (leading)
Sony HVR-V1U 3 (considering)
Sony NEXVG 10, 20, or 30 (leading) (I've actually handled in store)
Panasonic AG-AC90 (leading)
Sony HXR-NX70U (leading)

Other
Canon HF G20 (I've actually handled in store)
Sony HXR-NX30
Panasonic HC-X920
Canon HF11
Panasonic AG-HMC40
Canon XH A1
Sony HVR-A1U*
Sony DCR-VX2100
Sony HDR-FX1
Sony HDR-FX7



*Note, I am making this investment for more than weddings. I am a graphic and multimedia artist working in promotion. I do plan on using them for other things (demo videos, hopefully commercials for local businesses, music videos for local music artists, recording music events, sales meeting videos, etc). So when shooting, multi-cam is still somewhat important to me. Also being as professional as possible when on "set" or live. I don't mind learning curves as I like to be able to get settings through custom operation without feeling like I can't achieve a look that me or the client wants.

[John Nantz]

Christopher - first off, welcome aboard!

Second off, .... I'm on the same kind of hunt you are. Camcorder upgrade and "upscale" used market. It's good to see that you probably won't be bidding against me though (being in the UK)!

Yesterday was really wasted because I spent the entire morning reviewing the Black Magic Cinema camera, [ http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/blackmag...ny-fs100.html] ] reading a really lengthy post on DVinfo and searching the internet. This morning the post I was reading before yours was someone else looking for a camera for weddings and pro wrestling. Maybe what the board needs is a new section "The Great 'What's my next camera?' " section.

My camera list looks very similar to yours but a few critical items I want (there is a tradeoff for everything) are:
1. Good blacks, good highlights
2. Low light (good enough for stage, church performances, music performances)
3. Good in motion
My main interest is in sailing, hence 1 and 3.

One interest I have, like you, is shooting with B-Cam. What I've found out is, it is very helpful to have at least the same similar kind of camera for a coherent "look". Camcorders have a certain look in their video, such as the way the color is represented. Generally speaking that means keeping within the same brand, but even then, the color can be different between some models.

The other reason for a second camcorder, for a professional, is to make sure there is a backup. As an aside, from what I gather, for wedding video work, three camcorders are more ideal, and preferably all the same model. Talk about cash layout!

Besides color, the other good reason for going with two cameras of the same brand is the ability to share accessories, like batteries. Maybe the menu systems are the same and similar button layouts. I also like buttons instead of dealing with menus.

For myself, the plan is to get one good camcorder and for the B-cam, get one that is a lot less in cost.

I'll be following your thread and see what people come up with. You know, researching a camera upgrade is a lot of work!

[Dave Blackhurst]

Well, to start, scratch off the older tape based ones on your list - A1U, FX1, FX7, V1U (and I think the XHA1?). Nothing "wrong" with them, but they are HDV, tape, and getting a bit "dated" - your desire for a card based format takes them off the list. Technology is moving fast enough that a couple years makes for a lot of performance difference.

You mention dual card slots, not many cams with that particular feature...

NX30 (or one of the CX/PJ Handycam siblings like the CX760, PJ710, PJ760, PJ790) with the magic eyeball (BOSS stabilizer) is nice if you need handheld stability - a plus if that's a consideration, not an issue if it's going to be locked down on a tripod!

While I'm a Sony shooter, and have the AX100 on the wish list to fill out the RX100M2/RX10 set, I think you may want to shoot some test footage with your existing Canon (which I'm presuming will be available for "double duty"), and the cameras that make your "short list". See how well they intermix - in my experience, each brand has a different "look", but it's been a while since I have tested. I have looked at other shooters current footage, and some models definitely have a "brand look", others are more "neutral". I suspect you'll find that a couple Canon camcorders will be your better bet, and you can probably pick up a pair used that are a good match - I'm not up on model #'s and current prices, but I'm sure you'll get advice on those shortly. I know Canon typically has a "pro" and a "consumer" version at the higher end of their line that share "guts", so you could have a "matched" set image wise, even if the model #"s aren't the same (sort of like how a Sony NX30 and PJ760 share "innards").



To take an entirely different approach... I mentioned the Sony DSC RX100M2 and RX10 - you could pick up the pair for around your $2K, they are "still" cameras, and have a 29 minute clip limit (you're used to that with DLSR's), but are full manual, share menu systems (for the most part), and would at least match each other. The RX100M2 doesn't have much zoom, but is small and discrete - making it good for some things, the RX10 is a bit more all round camera. I'm looking to add the AX100 to shoot in 4K, crop/pan in post, and I've got "multicam" from one unit. using the RX's for alternative camera positions/angles. The three models should match well as they use the same or at least a similar sensor.

[Jeff Harper]

+ Dave's recommendation.

[Jeff Pulera]

Hi Christopher,

In the same position here. Have done weddings and such for over 20 years, was full time, now back to part time and the HDV cameras are showing their age (Sony FX7 and Canon HV20). The two cameras I've been considering are the Panasonic AC90 and Canon G30, both on your list. I would stay away from any of the used HDV cameras and go with AVCHD cameras, all of which use inexpensive SDHC cards. I've rented AVCHD cameras and really prefer SD cards to tape capture and dropouts.

I was very excited about the AC90 since the form factor is similar to what I've been used to with Sony VX-2000 and FX7 cameras, and I really like the 3 manual rings on the lens. However, I have experience with the older HMC40 and the low light is just terrible. I understand that the newer AC90 uses a backlit sensor and maybe has cleaner gain capabilities, but still skeptical. If I want bad low light, I'll keep the FX7, thank you.

I did recently get my hands on the Canon XA20 briefly at a trade show booth and from what I could tell, the low light looked pretty darn nice, like I used to have with the VX-2000 before I went HD. Maybe the beautiful quality of the flip-out screen was misleading me, but it sure looked good. Wish I'd had an SD card with me to shoot some sample clips to bring home and really check out! The G30 is the consumer version of the XA20, lacks top handle and XLR inputs, otherwise the same guts inside. So that's where my interest is at the moment. Of course, NAB is just around the corner, so...

But back to the AC90, it seems that what they do at high gain settings is to "smooth" the video to reduce noise, which also makes the video look "plasticy", same effect you get with over-application of a video denoiser plugin. Almost like a pastel look, colors and details averaged together. I've seen side-by-side sample stills from low-light reception using the AC90 and XA20 and the latter looked much better to me.

One more thing, a co-worker had a little tiny Canon that fit inside the hand and he had me edit some footage of his daughter's dimly lit choir concerts and I was amazed at the clean, detailed image, so Canon must have something going on there! Far superior to my HDV, or the HMC40 I'd used.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera

[Steven Davis]

I'm about to sell one or two of my Sony V1u's since I've bought two Canon XF300s. I'll probably post them next week.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Jeff

The first thing that put me off the AC-90 was the fact that ONLY the internal mic has auto control.. for some weird reason the XLR's only have manual control and no auto gain which is fine in controlled shoots but would be a nightmare at a wedding reception with huge variations in ambient sound levels.

Yes, the smoothing function at high gain is very much overdone. Most noticeable is hair which at high gain looks like it has been spray painted on ..the smoothing kills all the detail and makes it look very smudgy!!

I went for Sony EA-50's as I love shoulder mount cameras but they are out of the $2000 range limit and the Panny AC-7 is quite a nice camera if you want to pay just over $1K but then you are stuck with a big box. I can use my EA-50's as handheld or SM as the pad retracts plus I have the huge advantage of interchangeable lenses and a big APSC sensor. All my Nikon mount lenses can be used on my video cameras now which is awesome.

Chris

[Peter Riding]

The AC90 seems to get maligned for a poor performance in low light. I have been using one for the best part of a year and that is not my experience. The negative comments just seem to get repeated from goodness knows what original source and we don't even know the shooting conditions or the competence or otherwise of the person making the original statements. As far as I can recall it was someone shooting with a brand new cam with which they were unfamiliar at a trade show playing at being a reporter, on auto everythingBut if it gets repeated enough it becomes a fact :- (

Sample clips are not a whole lot of use as the particular real world shooting conditions can have a dramatic influence on any cams performance. And clips shot in lab conditions are not real world.

What I can say is that I for example shot a christening a few days ago in a dark church. I was also shooting stills and I had the 5DII's for that on 4000iso. Even that wasn't high enough and I had to resort to using flash. Meanwhile the AC90 did a fine job on auto with backlight compensation on. Incidentally a Gopro 2 also performed acceptably - though I was very careful with its positioning.

The auto functionality for audio that Chris mentions may or may not matter depending on your workflow. I almost always shoot dual audio so the onboard audio is for syncing only. You can of course have one channel on xlr and the other on auto anyway.

The cam has a good range of manual functionality and customisation, and its form factor enables it to be low visibility and handheld as well as sitting happily on a monopod, while looking the pro part. Its not going to out perform a dSLR in very low light - use the right tool for the job - but its a whole lot more practical to shoot with than a tricked out dSLR or an ENG style monstrosity in most conditions.

Pete

[Aindreas Lynch]

I use the Panasonic AG-AC90 and the HC-X920 as a B-Cam to film weddings and I find them to be great. The low light performance is pretty good on both, not brilliant but perfectly acceptable for what I am doing. I'm not too worried about the sound on them as I use remote recorders to record sound and the form factor is ideal for me. If I had to complain about anything its that the WB on the panasonics is absolutely terrible. Why I can't dial in a Kelvin number I have no idea and auto WB with any kind of back or side light is terrible.

Just to give you a little overview also - I'm a photographer in the main and only film weddings as a sideline at the moment. I use 2 x 5DMkIII's as stills cameras so I'm well aware of what clean noise looks like. The panny's aren't' a patch on the 5D's but they are perfectly acceptable and noise at high gain is minimal. You might be wondering why I don't use the 5D's to film also, well I did to begin with but usability for videoing is insanely difficult compared to the panny camcorders. The product does look better admittedly from the dslrs but the workflow and time to edit is much much easier from the pannys and time is money!!!

[Chris Harding]

Hi Pete

I wasn't knocking performance in low light at all. Despite the tiny sensors it does a remarkable job with gain right up to 24db ..I just noticed on some footage (probably shot at 30db!! ) Subjects hair does appear smeary and loses detail.

I was a Panny user for 23 years so I loved the range. Sadly at receptions I use the shotgun on the XLR channels for a lot of audio and just don't have time to play with manual audio at a fast moving reception !

Coming from HMC82's I really wanted a shoulder mount camera too!! I really have no idea why Panny never just incorporated the audio board from the HMC cameras ..they were brilliant!! If the 90's had auto levels on the XLR's I would have bought them in a flash!!

Chris

[Paul Inglis]

I don’t shoot weddings but I do shoot run gun stuff in and out doors. I’m finding my XA20 is handling things very well. I’m sure if you hang on a bit these cams will be discounted in the near future.

You say you wouldn’t mind a couple of cams in your budget. If I needed two cams for $2000 I would definitely get a pair of s/h XA10’s. It shares nearly all the functionality of the popular XF100 in a smaller body.

[Mike Beckett]

Sony NX70: be careful. They are robust, well-built, waterproof, lots of features for a small camera. Great in low light too.

But the lens has quality issues, they're really only practical for using at or near full wide because of this. Dreadful chromatic aberrations when you get towards full zoom (and full zoom isn't great, it's 10x on a 26mm lens). Also the zoom rocker has issues too, if that is important to you.

[Dave Partington]

My primary concern would be how well the cameras operates in low light. Weddings are typically low-light at some point in the day.

Next, I'd be looking for how easy the manual controls are. Unless you're looking to run in full auto mode all the time (good luck) then having manual controls that are easy to access and allow changes to be made quickly is critical. The problem with the older XA10 (which I love for tiny places) is that the manual controls are fiddly at best, even when assigned to the rear buttons/wheel. Canon improved on this with the XA20. If you're looking at models where controls are buried in menus then I'd forget it and move on to the next one on the list.

Then, I'd be looking for cameras that match easily in post which means buying two of the same or nearly identical models. No matter how much/little time you spend with the cameras on the day, you'll spend just as much, and usually more time in post and if they don't match you'll be pulling your hair out. The more time you spend in post, the lower your hourly rate ends up being.

If you buy one good camera and one 'less good' camera to use as a B-Cam then what happens when you need to switch to the other angle? The whole purpose of having it is to be able to switch, so if that second camera is of lower quality, much noisier in low light, the colours don't match etc it's going to stand out like a sore thumb, and that's never good, either for the B+G or your stress levels in post. You really do need two or more cameras that match when ever possible.

Since audio is such a big part of the day, having additional audio options on cameras is a big deal to me (like XLR), so if you're going for a model without XLR then make sure it's got a good 1/8" (3.5mm) input with decent preamps (not noisy ones) otherwise your audio could be useless. I almost never use audio captured by the on-camera mics.

Having dual cards is also a big deal to some people. All my video cameras now have dual card slots and I'm using them in parallel most of the time since I once lost a clip due to a bad memory card, which fortunately was a throw away clip, but if it had been the bride entering I'd have been screwed. While memory cards are generally very reliable, having a backup is very comforting on a stressful day.

Also important to me is the ability to set a specific kelvin temperature for white balance. This allows you to set two or more cameras with the same setting easily. The one thing I used to hate about my Panasonic cameras was you had a choice of 3200K, 5600K or 'custom' using a grey card, but no two cameras ever seemed to get exactly the same settings from the grey card (e.g. when it needs maybe 4800K) so WB was always different and need fixing in post. Having all cameras the same by dialling in the same exact kelvin temp almost always makes things easier in post.

$2,000 seems like a lot of money, but really it's not that much when you're looking at two or more cameras of decent quality, or even one "really good" camera. Looking at the used market may be a good idea. Stay away from any older cameras like HDV etc, not only is tape a PITA now but the older cameras just aren't up to the low light capabilities of the recent models and you'd end up needing lighting.

[Jeff Harper]

I agree with Paul that the XA10s and XA20s are decent cameras. I shoot using two XA10s and had the XA20 but sold it. The AC90 is very comparable to the XA10 according to some.

Unfortunately these 1/3" sensors are only capable of so much and I'm tired of the limitations in low light. I just don't find the low light abilities of the Canon XA-10 acceptable any longer. My XA10s just feel a bit tired and outdated, and so does their footage, at least in low light.

That's why I am intriqued by the new Sony cameras. The AX100 and RX10 do not have the handle and shotgun mount feature of the XA10, but the 1" sensors are going to be hard to beat, at least for the moment.

It's easy to see that the Sony's are going to be setting a high bar for image quality. I find it hard to imagine purchasing a cam with 1/3" sensors with these Sony's available (as long as you do not require XLR audio connectors).

What really could drive someone crazy at this point would be trying to imagine what Canon or Panasonic might offer in the relatively near future. It would seem they both should have some pretty cool stuff in the works.

In the meantime, I wonder if the XA100 isn't the cam to beat at it's price point. With Dave's post we can see that low light consideration is of prime importance, and we all know this is absolutely true. It makes sense that the relatively huge 1" sensor on the new Sonys should render very clean images even in the challenging environments we find ourselves in during weddings.

The only concern I would have is how footage shot at 1080 comes out. I've read accounts of another 4K camera that did not do so well with regular HD footage. The Sony does shoot at 1920x1080 and that is how I would prefer to shoot, because I would not want to put 4k footage on my timeline for downsizing, even though it would be tons of fun to play with! But still, going back to the 1" sensor, it "should" be really, really great.

Dave's suggestions are spot on and could be considered as a perfect guide on what to consider when purchasing a camera.

I agree with John N, that an entire section devoted to "what cam should I purchase" would probably not be a bad idea!

[Christopher Ellington]

Thank you guys. I appreciate the experience and expertise. I know that holding it in the hands will influence the decision.

One take away is how capable the XA10/XA20's seem to be. I'll need to give them serious consideration.

1) I am now seeing a lot of praise for the Panasonic GH3. Continuous recording has been on of my concerns about doing dual cam with DSLRs. However they supposedly have "unlimited" recording time limits. It seems they are built camcorders first in a DSLR form factor.

2) The Panasonic GH3 and the Sony NEX VG series have been appealing because I fear missing the shallow depth of field that I am used to with my DSLRs (mainly the Nikon D7000 and Canon 7D).

3) Concerning dual cam, another option is for me to go all in on the best camcorder I can get for the $2000 price range like the AX100 as a main camera. Then at the times of the events/jobs/shoots, etc, I rent a compatible camcorder (at least by brand and quality) for a secondary or backup. With an understanding that I will have to do a bit of extra work to match the footage unless I am able to rent the same camcorder.