Should I charge? at DVinfo.net

Peter Rush · October 31st, 2012, 10:21 AM

OK so recently filmed a wedding where the speeches were lit by tea lights - I kid you not! Knowing how dark it would be I asked the mother of the bride (who was the organizer) if I could have just a little extra light (mine or theirs) to lift the gloom to allow for better video and was told (nicely) no, as we like the ambiance!

Now the footage is, as expected, very dark but can be lightened nicely in Adobe Premiere, and along with Neat Video plugin it's pretty acceptable and I wouldn't have been happy handing the final product over with such really dark footage in it anyway.

Now here's the rub - instead of taking about an hour to export, it's taken 8 because Neat Video is good but really slow! It's tied my edit machine up for a day and they're going to be really happy with the result - I can almost guarantee they wouldn't have liked to watch an hour's worth (yes they went on and on - in the gloom!) of dark speeches - I feel like charging them extra!!!

I won't of course but interested to hear what you think.

Pete

John Knight · October 31st, 2012, 01:21 PM

Yeah - done that before. Was spewing as well. But it's all part of the business... some weddings are a breeze, some are a nightmare... it all balances out in the end. Wouldn't look good if you added PITA tax to brides invoice. :)

Katie Fasel · October 31st, 2012, 02:29 PM

That's a drag, for sure, but in then end, as John said...wouldn't look very good to add the PITA tax, no matter how much we want to.

I would be very interested in seeing some before and after screen grabs from your speeches.

I have one we're working on that wasn't candle-lit, but VERY dark. The venue for dinner was a historic mansion, that didn't have modern lighting at all...very dim chandeliers high up atop the ceiling, and the only possibility to add light was from our on camera lights, which we opted not to use as to not stick out like a sore thumb. Would love to see what Neat Video can do, I have looked into it but never jumped on board and purchased it.

Dave Partington · October 31st, 2012, 02:52 PM

Some weddings just need some extra time, and where possible we do that kind of render over night instead of wasting a full day. You know it's going to take time, so just let it run over night and get on with other stuff during the day.

It's also why we have an additional two fast computers..... just for export rendering ;)

While you really want to charge, and in an ideal world could charge, it's not realistic to go back after the event and ask for more money.

Had you explained that not having lights will make the video either a) Useless or b) will cost $x.xx more because of additional post processing, then maybe you would have an argument, but as it is, I think not.

John Knight · October 31st, 2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katie Fasel

Would love to see what Neat Video can do, I have looked into it but never jumped on board and purchased it.

Neat Video is one of the only filters that has ever knocked my head back in amazement. It's saved me so many times. Shame it is such a intensive beast and slows rendering to a crawl. I remember coming home once from a dim reception and looking in horror at some of the footage... I downloaded a trial of Neat Video and POW... like magic all the brownish speckle just disappeared. Absolute must purchase.

Dave Partington · October 31st, 2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Knight

Neat Video is one of the only filters that has ever knocked my head back in amazement. It's saved me so many times. Shame it is such a intensive beast and slows rendering to a crawl. I remember coming home once from a dim reception and looking in horror at some of the footage... I downloaded a trial of Neat Video and POW... like magic all the brownish speckle just disappeared. Absolute must purchase.

Absolutely agree. Neat Video is a must have tool in any wedding / event videographer's arsenal.

Chris Harding · October 31st, 2012, 06:01 PM

Sadly you cannot charge extra ..and yes the render times increase dramatically with Neat Video.

I had a reception where the groom refused any lighting so I showed him the LCD and what his speeches would look like (they were terrible BTW) but he was 100% happy with the dim, dull and noisy image and I didn't take any noise out either!! (Spite maybe??? to teach him a lesson??)

When the client gets the video, if it was me, I wouldn't even use Neat Video...let them see how dark everything is (presuming you have prewarned them) and let them suffer on their decision..HOWEVER you can offer to "enhance" the video at an extra cost if they feel that they made a mistake...that way you might get paid for all the extra render time.

It has only happened to me once so far ..it was also a tea light reception so I know how you feel

Chris

Travis Wilber · October 31st, 2012, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

When the client gets the video, if it was me, I wouldn't even use Neat Video...let them see how dark everything is (presuming you have prewarned them) and let them suffer on their decision..

I'd be careful doing that. I've had alot of referrals come from "I just watched so and so's wedding video". Some even come in as corporate gigs. It's tough going the extra mile when you aren't getting paid for it but it can pay off in the future with more gigs. You do have to draw a line somewhere though. I think rendering time is worth it though.

As everyone said its part of the process. When you dig a hole and start hitting rocks you just gotta curse a bit and hope the next one will go smoother. And try to line your renders up for night or when you are out. I recently spent $600 on an older imac just so that I could have another computer for rending/transcoding. It's definitely paid off and I'm able to get alot more work done. It's nice when something takes even 15 minutes to render to turn to the other computer and keep working on something else.

Long Truong · October 31st, 2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Wilber

I'd be careful doing that. I've had alot of referrals come from "I just watched so and so's wedding video". Some even come in as corporate gigs. It's tough going the extra mile when you aren't getting paid for it but it can pay off in the future with more gigs. You do have to draw a line somewhere though. I think rendering time is worth it though.

As everyone said its part of the process. When you dig a hole and start hitting rocks you just gotta curse a bit and hope the next one will go smoother. And try to line your renders up for night or when you are out. I recently spent $600 on an older imac just so that I could have another computer for rending/transcoding. It's definitely paid off and I'm able to get alot more work done. It's nice when something takes even 15 minutes to render to turn to the other computer and keep working on something else.

Some very good advices, thanks for sharing Travis!

Nigel Barker · November 1st, 2012, 03:25 AM

It may take eight hours to render out but it's not like it's eight hours of extra work. You can't charge extra just because you haven't invested in sufficient equipment so that you have a spare machine to render on while you carry on editing.

I concur with all the plaudits for Neat Video it can perform miracles but it is so sloooooow. Red Giant Denoiser II (part of Magic Bullet Suite) is a much faster alternative for more moderate noise reduction

Dave Partington · November 1st, 2012, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

I concur with all the plaudits for Neat Video it can perform miracles but it is so sloooooow. Red Giant Denoiser II (part of Magic Bullet Suite) is a much faster alternative for more moderate noise reduction

I've not read of many people preferring MB Denoiser once they've tried Neat Video. How would you compare the two ?

Nigel Barker · November 1st, 2012, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Partington

I've not read of many people preferring MB Denoiser once they've tried Neat Video. How would you compare the two ?

It has seemed faster when I have used it although I haven't done an A/B comparison it's just that every time I have used Neat Video it seems to take hours whereas Magic Bullet Denoiser takes minutes. It is of course free if you own the Magic Bullet Suite. Here is a good review ProVideo Coalition.com: Themed Channel | Editing & Post by Jeff Foster: Product Review: Magic Bullet Denoiser II

Jim Arco · November 1st, 2012, 06:35 AM

One way to think of it: You used Neat to compensate for the "poor-quality camera" you used. At least that's the way the B&G might think of it.

You can't charge extra for this in the wedding market because the capability to make "great images in any light" is part of the expectation when someone hires a pro video person. Besides, you're somewhat competing with a bazillion camera phones, many of which can get acceptable images in low light. (Well, they look OK on the very small screens of those very same camera phones.)

Let's count our blessings that we've got software like Neat Video and let the render percolate overnight, if needed.

JA

Noel Lising · November 1st, 2012, 07:50 AM

Had the same issue with a wedding 2 years ago, I did not clean it up rather, I made sure I shot one speech with my Tota Lights on for a good 30 seconds before pulling the plug. I included that in the final edit for spite (I told you so, see the difference if you would have listned)

My 2 cents.

Peter Rush · November 2nd, 2012, 01:55 AM

I'm filming today and tomorrow but I'll try and post before and after shots in a few days - Neat Video is really good but painfully slow

I wasn't really suggesting I charge them - just wanting to hear your thoughts on client induced issues such as this. Tempting though it is to give them the dark footage I warned them about - I too get a lot of work from referrals and recommendations - plus I like to do a good job so my professional pride would not have allowed it

Pete

October 31st, 2012, 10:21 AM	#1
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Should I charge? OK so recently filmed a wedding where the speeches were lit by tea lights - I kid you not! Knowing how dark it would be I asked the mother of the bride (who was the organizer) if I could have just a little extra light (mine or theirs) to lift the gloom to allow for better video and was told (nicely) no, as we like the ambiance! Now the footage is, as expected, very dark but can be lightened nicely in Adobe Premiere, and along with Neat Video plugin it's pretty acceptable and I wouldn't have been happy handing the final product over with such really dark footage in it anyway. Now here's the rub - instead of taking about an hour to export, it's taken 8 because Neat Video is good but really slow! It's tied my edit machine up for a day and they're going to be really happy with the result - I can almost guarantee they wouldn't have liked to watch an hour's worth (yes they went on and on - in the gloom!) of dark speeches - I feel like charging them extra!!! I won't of course but interested to hear what you think. Pete

October 31st, 2012, 01:21 PM	#2
John Knight Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 588	Re: Should I charge? Yeah - done that before. Was spewing as well. But it's all part of the business... some weddings are a breeze, some are a nightmare... it all balances out in the end. Wouldn't look good if you added PITA tax to brides invoice. :)

October 31st, 2012, 02:29 PM	#3
Katie Fasel Major Player Join Date: May 2011 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 236	Re: Should I charge? That's a drag, for sure, but in then end, as John said...wouldn't look very good to add the PITA tax, no matter how much we want to. I would be very interested in seeing some before and after screen grabs from your speeches. I have one we're working on that wasn't candle-lit, but VERY dark. The venue for dinner was a historic mansion, that didn't have modern lighting at all...very dim chandeliers high up atop the ceiling, and the only possibility to add light was from our on camera lights, which we opted not to use as to not stick out like a sore thumb. Would love to see what Neat Video can do, I have looked into it but never jumped on board and purchased it.

October 31st, 2012, 02:52 PM	#4
Dave Partington Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: York, England Posts: 1,323	Re: Should I charge? Some weddings just need some extra time, and where possible we do that kind of render over night instead of wasting a full day. You know it's going to take time, so just let it run over night and get on with other stuff during the day. It's also why we have an additional two fast computers..... just for export rendering ;) While you really want to charge, and in an ideal world could charge, it's not realistic to go back after the event and ask for more money. Had you explained that not having lights will make the video either a) Useless or b) will cost $x.xx more because of additional post processing, then maybe you would have an argument, but as it is, I think not. __________________ Qualified UAV Pilot with CAA PFAW Aerial Photo / Aerial Video \| Corporate Video Production

October 31st, 2012, 06:01 PM	#7
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Should I charge? Sadly you cannot charge extra ..and yes the render times increase dramatically with Neat Video. I had a reception where the groom refused any lighting so I showed him the LCD and what his speeches would look like (they were terrible BTW) but he was 100% happy with the dim, dull and noisy image and I didn't take any noise out either!! (Spite maybe??? to teach him a lesson??) When the client gets the video, if it was me, I wouldn't even use Neat Video...let them see how dark everything is (presuming you have prewarned them) and let them suffer on their decision..HOWEVER you can offer to "enhance" the video at an extra cost if they feel that they made a mistake...that way you might get paid for all the extra render time. It has only happened to me once so far ..it was also a tea light reception so I know how you feel Chris

November 1st, 2012, 03:25 AM	#10
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: Should I charge? It may take eight hours to render out but it's not like it's eight hours of extra work. You can't charge extra just because you haven't invested in sufficient equipment so that you have a spare machine to render on while you carry on editing. I concur with all the plaudits for Neat Video it can perform miracles but it is so sloooooow. Red Giant Denoiser II (part of Magic Bullet Suite) is a much faster alternative for more moderate noise reduction

November 1st, 2012, 06:35 AM	#13
Jim Arco New Boot Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: st Louis, mo Posts: 12	Re: Should I charge? One way to think of it: You used Neat to compensate for the "poor-quality camera" you used. At least that's the way the B&G might think of it. You can't charge extra for this in the wedding market because the capability to make "great images in any light" is part of the expectation when someone hires a pro video person. Besides, you're somewhat competing with a bazillion camera phones, many of which can get acceptable images in low light. (Well, they look OK on the very small screens of those very same camera phones.) Let's count our blessings that we've got software like Neat Video and let the render percolate overnight, if needed. JA

November 1st, 2012, 07:50 AM	#14
Noel Lising Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 789	Re: Should I charge? Had the same issue with a wedding 2 years ago, I did not clean it up rather, I made sure I shot one speech with my Tota Lights on for a good 30 seconds before pulling the plug. I included that in the final edit for spite (I told you so, see the difference if you would have listned) My 2 cents. __________________ Noel Lising

November 2nd, 2012, 01:55 AM	#15
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: Should I charge? I'm filming today and tomorrow but I'll try and post before and after shots in a few days - Neat Video is really good but painfully slow I wasn't really suggesting I charge them - just wanting to hear your thoughts on client induced issues such as this. Tempting though it is to give them the dark footage I warned them about - I too get a lot of work from referrals and recommendations - plus I like to do a good job so my professional pride would not have allowed it Pete