Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...

Ron Evans · September 27th, 2012, 07:22 AM

Yes the CX700 has zebras and peaking.

Ron Evans

Jeff Harper · September 27th, 2012, 12:46 PM

James, your aversion to Canon is not logical. Keep in mind your issue with your XH-A1 was due to your choice of camera, not the Canon brand . The XH-A1 was a poor choice for low-light work even back when the camera was new. Here in Cincinnati my friends and I never understood those few around us that chose that camera for wedding work,, it performed in low light conditions dismally compared to our FX1s and Z1s.

The Canon XA10 on the other hand is VERY good in lowlight. I run it along side my DSLR style cameras, and I prefer it's images over those of my DSLRs most the time. I love the size, the image quality, the lowlight ability. and yes I've even grown to like the exposure wheel, works great for me. Audio quality is absolutely stellar for a camera it's size.

I've taken my XA10 around to friends at three video companies and they are astonished at what they see. These guys are all veterans in the business who know a thing or two, and they were blown away with the IQ and lowlight ability of the XA10.

So it is your preogative to not choose the XA-10 or XF100 or XF300 of course. But do not ignore the current Canons because your old camera was poor in low light. Sony and Panasonic also have produced cameras that were poor in low light also.

I am a wedding shooter and I am a low light fanatic, I'm very picky, and I love my XA-10 for wedding work.

Noa Put · September 27th, 2012, 12:59 PM

I have done weddings with my xh-a1 and a z1 and I can tell those first gen sony's where just as bad in low light, every one of those very first hdv camera's did not do well in low light.So I don't see why a xh-a1 would have been a bad choice, it was in fact an excellent camera when it came out, not up to today's standards but it was back then compared to it's competitors.

Jeff Harper · September 27th, 2012, 01:34 PM

Noa, theZ1/ FX1s, etc, were not to my liking in low light coming from the VX2100 and PD170s as I did, but the XH-A1 was, to me, very poor, no comparison, but that is just my opinion.

The last couple of years I have edited numerous wedding videos shot by veterans using both cams, and the XH-A1s were just abysmal, to me. It is/was a very good camera, in decent light, but I have had this disagreement before with others. I have not owned the XH-A1, but editing footage from that model camera always just shocked me at the level of gain needed to cope, compared to the Z1/FX1. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It doesn't matter, thank god for the newer cameras is all I can say.

Erick Perdomo · September 28th, 2012, 09:44 AM

Just for the record...I use a XHA1s for many weddings and events (like the video I shot at a Club-link below) and with a LED light on camera I got good results. The only footage I've seen that was better was a EX1 but I couldn't afford it. Are people saying that a cheaper Sony can do better? I'd like to see proof!
I never used the XHA1s in automatic settings. I have seen the footage I get when its set to automatic in low light. Total crap.mushy and grainy. I always used manual and i adjust contrast and colours in post-that's the way it should be.Of course I used gain at +9db and even shutter at 30fps but this footage (see link) is usable.
I have edited EX1 footage and it was better. What else is out there in a camcorder?
Babaluu's Club
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9RO3_dkpTM

Nowadays, I use a Canon T3i with a F 1.8 lens for clubs (but always with a LED dimmable light) when I have to and even a new Canon XF300 (which is a little better than the XHA1s but sharper than an EX1)...
I still haven't found the perfect camera for under $10k ...
let me know when you do pls :-)
E

Noa Put · September 28th, 2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Are people saying that a cheaper Sony can do better? I'd like to see proof!

To which Sony are you referring to and compared to what camera?

Ron Evans · September 28th, 2012, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

To which Sony are you referring to and compared to what camera?

You also have to specify what characteristic you will be looking at. I still have my FX1 but when compared to the SR11( the oldest AVCHD camera I now have, which I still use) the SR11 has a sharper picture, better colour, lower video noise. If I compare my NX5U with the latest CX700. In full auto the CX700 will snap into sharp focus quickly, especially if people are around and face detection is on. In comparison the NX5U is slow at auto focus if it gets correct at all. Comparing video noise there is no comparison the CX700 is much less I think less noise in the CX700 at 24db than the NX5U at 12db and at these levels there is good colour in the CX700 too. In full manual the NX5U can be controlled in many ways and still has the advantage as the main camera for me if the stage lighting is such that gain can be less than 12db ( even better at 6db). The NX5U has better sound with XLR's and LPCM audio etc etc. If it gets really dark though I actually fall back to the CX700 or the XR500 because they have a clean signal and practically see in the dark something the NX5U cannot do without grain. The back illuminated sensors really do make a difference I think.

Ron Evans

Chris Harding · September 29th, 2012, 12:34 AM

Hi Ron

The backlit sensors is an interesting one. Panasonic's new AC-90 actually has smaller chips (1/4.7" against the older 1/4" of the HMC40) and reports so far have indicated not only as good or better IQ than it's big brother with 1/3" chips but video noise at 24db (unusable on the 1/4" chip cameras) is quite clean and comparable to 12db gain even on the big sensors.

It's obviously a tech improvement that will make a lot of low light users at weddings smile!!! I was a little dismayed when they announced a physically smaller chip but the test results from guys like Barry Green and Bob Diaz show that cams with backlit chips are the way to go!!!

I'm assuming that the CX 700 also has backlit sensors???

Chris

Ron Evans · September 29th, 2012, 01:43 AM

Yes the CX700 and the XR500 have backilluminated sensors the SR11 does not being much the same vintage as the NX5U . The AG-AC90 looks like an interesting camera that has lots of the functions I need for my wife to use. Wonder if they are Sony sensors!! Will look at it more when it comes out.

Ron Evans

James Landsburger · September 30th, 2012, 11:44 AM

This has been a very helpful thread. I appreciate all the responses. Ron: Your breakdown of the CX700 vs your other cameras was interesting.

The discussions of the A1/FX1/Z1 coming from the VX2100 and PD170 are interesting and something I remember very well. I owned a VX2000 for years and it was amazing for what I needed. The time came to move to HD, and I can remember sitting in the camera store with the FX1 and A1. BOTH didn't do nearly the job the VX2000 did, and everyone knew it. I remember zooming into all the far corners, recording footage and watching it later at home. I also remember combing through all the youtube videos (like I'm doing again now). The salesman convinced me the A1 was the better buy, and against my gut I went with it. The truth is I probably wouldn't have loved either, but the A1 has been incredibly disappointing for many years now.

That said, I really don't hold a bias in my comments, and am just looking for the right choice...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

James, your aversion to Canon is not logical. Keep in mind your issue with your XH-A1 was due to your choice of camera, not the Canon brand . The XH-A1 was a poor choice for low-light work even back when the camera was new. Here in Cincinnati my friends and I never understood those few around us that chose that camera for wedding work,, it performed in low light conditions dismally compared to our FX1s and Z1s.

The Canon XA10 on the other hand is VERY good in lowlight. I run it along side my DSLR style cameras, and I prefer it's images over those of my DSLRs most the time. I love the size, the image quality, the lowlight ability. and yes I've even grown to like the exposure wheel, works great for me. Audio quality is absolutely stellar for a camera it's size.

I've taken my XA10...

...but even after my A1 story you've convinced me to look into the XA10. I like the size and what seems like the possibility of better DOF. I haven't been able to go to the store and hold both that and the 760, but I've been trying to read the reviews and the damn youtube footage.

I know all the variables that can make youtube footage a bad review source, but here's some thoughts. You can tell me if you've found the same or I'm off base.

The XA10 can look very sharp and crisp, but often the colors look bland and drab to me:

(the images here are very sharp)

(to be fair, here's one I found "in cinema mode w vivid color option" and it does pop)

The XA10 looks pretty good in low light, although I've seen some footage that I'm not so sure about:

(a band in a club - not bad, not great?)

(some good stuff here, although I think I'm seeing grain in places)

(some nice low light stuff here. Some shots better than others. Looks very good then the field/bunny at 3:00 ain't great)

(not good imho)

As for the CX760...

Footage is sharp and I like it, although I'm not sure it's as sharp as the A10:

(look at band at 4:48)

(good variety of footage here)

The low light video I previously reviewed looks good, but I do see issues too:

I think it's safe to say that for image stabilization, the Sony is the clear winner, so no research on that.

As you can probably tell I'm tearing my hair out over this! :-)

I don't know that the 760 is the "vx2000 with stabilization" as I hope. I don't know that my budget will get me what I need. I don't know if the XA10 is the perfect compromise. I don't know what I don't know!!!

Anyway, thanks for all the help.

Ron Evans · September 30th, 2012, 11:49 AM

If you are not in a hurry you may want to wait and see what the Panasonic AG-AC90 is like. It looks like an interesting camera at a good price point.

Ron Evans

James Landsburger · September 30th, 2012, 11:54 AM

Thanks Ron - that's the worst part about this. I need it next week for an event the following. And the situation doesn't allow me to rent now and buy later.

Noa Put · September 30th, 2012, 01:04 PM

James, if you want I can upload some short footage straight from the camera (my cx730 - has the same performance as the 760) for you to view? So at least you"ll have some real world footage to look at, I have some footage on my camera from a wedding now where I can read the camera data at time of recording (like iso, shutter) so I can give you an idea about performance at certain iso's.

If someone else here could do the same for xa10 footage it will make your decission a bit easier. :)

Ron Evans · September 30th, 2012, 01:59 PM

If you need it next week I think the choice has to be a XA10 or the Panasonic AG-HMC40. Both have more control over the audio than the Sony and if you are on a tripod the advantage of better image stabilizer on the Sony is not an issue. For interviews audio is more important. All have face detection etc. I didn't bring up the HMC40 before as I think the AC90 will be much better but if its next week !!! I think the HMC40 may have a lot of deals around now too and closer to the price of the Sony's.

Ron Evans

Noa Put · September 30th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Low light was a concern so that would rule out the hmc40, I"d take the xa10 if you are on a budget, from what I have seen it performs also really well in low light and like you say, has good audio features.

September 27th, 2012, 07:22 AM	#16
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... Yes the CX700 has zebras and peaking. Ron Evans

September 27th, 2012, 12:46 PM	#17
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... James, your aversion to Canon is not logical. Keep in mind your issue with your XH-A1 was due to your choice of camera, not the Canon brand . The XH-A1 was a poor choice for low-light work even back when the camera was new. Here in Cincinnati my friends and I never understood those few around us that chose that camera for wedding work,, it performed in low light conditions dismally compared to our FX1s and Z1s. The Canon XA10 on the other hand is VERY good in lowlight. I run it along side my DSLR style cameras, and I prefer it's images over those of my DSLRs most the time. I love the size, the image quality, the lowlight ability. and yes I've even grown to like the exposure wheel, works great for me. Audio quality is absolutely stellar for a camera it's size. I've taken my XA10 around to friends at three video companies and they are astonished at what they see. These guys are all veterans in the business who know a thing or two, and they were blown away with the IQ and lowlight ability of the XA10. So it is your preogative to not choose the XA-10 or XF100 or XF300 of course. But do not ignore the current Canons because your old camera was poor in low light. Sony and Panasonic also have produced cameras that were poor in low light also. I am a wedding shooter and I am a low light fanatic, I'm very picky, and I love my XA-10 for wedding work.

September 27th, 2012, 12:59 PM	#18
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... I have done weddings with my xh-a1 and a z1 and I can tell those first gen sony's where just as bad in low light, every one of those very first hdv camera's did not do well in low light.So I don't see why a xh-a1 would have been a bad choice, it was in fact an excellent camera when it came out, not up to today's standards but it was back then compared to it's competitors.

September 27th, 2012, 01:34 PM	#19
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... Noa, theZ1/ FX1s, etc, were not to my liking in low light coming from the VX2100 and PD170s as I did, but the XH-A1 was, to me, very poor, no comparison, but that is just my opinion. The last couple of years I have edited numerous wedding videos shot by veterans using both cams, and the XH-A1s were just abysmal, to me. It is/was a very good camera, in decent light, but I have had this disagreement before with others. I have not owned the XH-A1, but editing footage from that model camera always just shocked me at the level of gain needed to cope, compared to the Z1/FX1. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It doesn't matter, thank god for the newer cameras is all I can say.

September 28th, 2012, 09:44 AM	#20
Erick Perdomo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 139	XHA1s is not the worst in low light Just for the record...I use a XHA1s for many weddings and events (like the video I shot at a Club-link below) and with a LED light on camera I got good results. The only footage I've seen that was better was a EX1 but I couldn't afford it. Are people saying that a cheaper Sony can do better? I'd like to see proof! I never used the XHA1s in automatic settings. I have seen the footage I get when its set to automatic in low light. Total crap.mushy and grainy. I always used manual and i adjust contrast and colours in post-that's the way it should be.Of course I used gain at +9db and even shutter at 30fps but this footage (see link) is usable. I have edited EX1 footage and it was better. What else is out there in a camcorder? Babaluu's Club https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9RO3_dkpTM Nowadays, I use a Canon T3i with a F 1.8 lens for clubs (but always with a LED dimmable light) when I have to and even a new Canon XF300 (which is a little better than the XHA1s but sharper than an EX1)... I still haven't found the perfect camera for under $10k ... let me know when you do pls :-) E __________________ http://www.fandangovideo.com Canon C100 mark 2, Canon XF300 & XF100, Canon 90D, Sony a6400,Ronin S etc etc

September 29th, 2012, 12:34 AM	#23
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... Hi Ron The backlit sensors is an interesting one. Panasonic's new AC-90 actually has smaller chips (1/4.7" against the older 1/4" of the HMC40) and reports so far have indicated not only as good or better IQ than it's big brother with 1/3" chips but video noise at 24db (unusable on the 1/4" chip cameras) is quite clean and comparable to 12db gain even on the big sensors. It's obviously a tech improvement that will make a lot of low light users at weddings smile!!! I was a little dismayed when they announced a physically smaller chip but the test results from guys like Barry Green and Bob Diaz show that cams with backlit chips are the way to go!!! I'm assuming that the CX 700 also has backlit sensors??? Chris

September 29th, 2012, 01:43 AM	#24
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... Yes the CX700 and the XR500 have backilluminated sensors the SR11 does not being much the same vintage as the NX5U . The AG-AC90 looks like an interesting camera that has lots of the functions I need for my wife to use. Wonder if they are Sony sensors!! Will look at it more when it comes out. Ron Evans

September 30th, 2012, 11:49 AM	#26
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... If you are not in a hurry you may want to wait and see what the Panasonic AG-AC90 is like. It looks like an interesting camera at a good price point. Ron Evans

September 30th, 2012, 11:54 AM	#27
James Landsburger Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Torrance, CA Posts: 58	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... Thanks Ron - that's the worst part about this. I need it next week for an event the following. And the situation doesn't allow me to rent now and buy later.

September 30th, 2012, 01:04 PM	#28
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... James, if you want I can upload some short footage straight from the camera (my cx730 - has the same performance as the 760) for you to view? So at least you"ll have some real world footage to look at, I have some footage on my camera from a wedding now where I can read the camera data at time of recording (like iso, shutter) so I can give you an idea about performance at certain iso's. If someone else here could do the same for xa10 footage it will make your decission a bit easier. :)

September 30th, 2012, 01:59 PM	#29
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... If you need it next week I think the choice has to be a XA10 or the Panasonic AG-HMC40. Both have more control over the audio than the Sony and if you are on a tripod the advantage of better image stabilizer on the Sony is not an issue. For interviews audio is more important. All have face detection etc. I didn't bring up the HMC40 before as I think the AC90 will be much better but if its next week !!! I think the HMC40 may have a lot of deals around now too and closer to the price of the Sony's. Ron Evans

September 30th, 2012, 02:09 PM	#30
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on... Low light was a concern so that would rule out the hmc40, I"d take the xa10 if you are on a budget, from what I have seen it performs also really well in low light and like you say, has good audio features.