Shooting weddings with small handicams

[Dave Partington]

Some nice moves in that video Noa, but for just about all churches I know of I'd be kicked out for filming that close to the couple during the rings and wows! It's amazing how things differ from country to country.

[Noa Put]

That's actually the standard position at weddings here, did you see the photog during the rings, he was crawling just in front of the couple to get his shot :)
I do wish we did in the way I see in a lot of US videos where the couple just faces each other during the ceremony and the videoguy can position 2 camera's left and right and maybe one in the back and cover it all, here you would risk not getting any faces during the vows or even missing the rings exchange as the couple often is facing the priest and showing their backs to the guests in church. Usually I am standing on the left or right side of the altar and only go to the center when they do the vows and share rings and the same for the photog who is usually standing beside me.

[Dave Partington]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

That's actually the standard position at weddings here, did you see the photog during the rings, he was crawling just in front of the couple to get his shot :)

Yes I did. That's a major no-no here ;)

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I do wish we did in the way I see in a lot of US videos where the couple just faces each other during the ceremony and the videoguy can position 2 camera's left and right and maybe one in the back and cover it all, here you would risk not getting any faces during the vows or even missing the rings exchange as the couple often is facing the priest and showing their backs to the guests in church.

Fortunately, they do generally do turn to face each other here. When ever I go to rehearsals and hear the vicar telling the couple that they should turn "just a little" towards each other I jump in and tell them to turn all the way to face each other so that the rear camera can see them.

In terms of how they do it in the US, we wouldn't generally have enough room to stand either side and get their faces. The churches are just too small, as are most civil venues. So it's usually a case of get them from the back, or an unattended camera from the front/side in the choir stalls, and maybe if we're lucky I can get a side position to see 'one' of their faces. Occasionally they don't turn all the way and we are relying on the unattended front camera (we're almost never allowed to stand there).

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Usually I am standing on the left or right side of the altar and only go to the center when they do the vows and share rings and the same for the photog who is usually standing beside me.

Hmmm..... 'moving during the ceremony' - another big no-no here in churches. We'd get away with moving 'a little' in a civil venue, but no where near as close as you appeared to be ;)

[Rob Cantwell]

thanks for the advice, yeah the CX410V has the smaller sensor, so it looks like it'll be the CX730 which isn't that readily available here in Ireland - in fact the majority of cams i see for sale are the really lower end - competing with the smart phones eh?
Anyway i think i'll end up getting a CX730 off ebay probably from Germany, There was a cam called Sony HDR PJ-650VE and a bigger one Sony HDR PJ-780VE but the disappearing CX 730 is the one I think.

[Dave Blackhurst]

I'm not as familiar with EU/PAL model nomenclature, but anything 7xx should be the larger Exmor sensor, IF you can find one. I don't remember if the 5xx series released in 2012 retained the larger sensor, but it is a significantly "less featured" model...

I noticed particularly with the Cybershot lines for 2013 (but also the Handycams), they are aimed at "cheap" consumer price points, with a few "upscale" features to try to attract the customer on the way to buy a shiny new smart phone... very little that would be "interesting" to a serious shooter looking for a crash cam or cheap b/c angle cam. Disappointing is a word that covers it...

As far as US "stock", the CX760 (think that's your 730 equivalent?) is hard to find, but the PJ760V version with the built in projector still seems to be in the retail channels, as are a very few PJ710 (less viewfinder, otherwise identical, OK if you don't need VF, and a bit cheaper). VERY few "resale/used" cameras showing up anymore, probably due to few first sales at retail... I did run into a couple 710's fairly reasonable, but prices have been rising.

I noticed Sony ran some specials to "clear the pipe" for the new 2013 models, with minimal discounts ($100 or so) on the CX/PJ models, but the prices are full retail for the most part now. The PJ790V looks like "it" for the high end handycam, and it likely will be retail, perhaps making the NX30 look attractive? Or pick up a "last years model"...

@Noa - yep, we probably will be holding on to our "small cameras" for a bit, as I do believe they are at the end of both their development and market niche... the cell phone has altered the landscape and the "dinosaurs" just don't have a place anymore! Not sure what all of the implications are, as much of the technological "push" was financed and enabled by quantity "consumer sales". The realistic prospect is that other than perhaps if we see 2k/4k cameras coming into the pipe, the "consumer" Handycam and Cybershots may soon be a fond memory...

Maybe it's time to do like DARPA and build multi arrayed cell phone sensor cams? Could be cool to have a 13Gpixel unit that you just set up and then zoom in to whatever part of the frame you want in "post"!?

[Noa Put]

I didn't know about the The PJ790V, even more expensive and just a update to the 760 and seems like double the price of what I can get a 730 for now which imagewise performs identically. Only "improvements" it has is the added microphone and a lower quality 720 mp4 recording option which is definitely aimed at people that edit on lower end laptop's. Also the projector has been improved but that is also a real consumerfunction.

I wonder if consumers are likely to pay that much for this camera, Sony has improved their handycam line up considerably over the years, I have a xr520 which once was top of their line as well and it has the same low light performance then the 730 but the 730 is much cleaner at high gains, it also retains color better when it gets dark. I also once had a cx115 and this one was clearly not as light sensitive and had harsh color and contrast, I got rid of it because it didn't match up that well with my other camera's.

If you plan to do any paid assignments with small handicams, your best of with picking the ones with the best specs as they can compete with larger semi-professional camera's imagewise but I wouldn't touch the midrange ones.

[Rob Cantwell]

after doing a bit further research i've identified a US based PAL version of the Sony HDR-PJ760E this has a 96 Gig internal memory capacity the PJ refers to Projector, it doesn't include a GPS but at €955 incl taxes it looks like a pretty ok deal compared to €820 for the CX 730 from e bay.
The 5xx and 6xx series have the smaller sensor which of course my more expensive HXR-MC2000 had too.
The 'magic eye' and the slightly bigger sensor will be a good asset for a B cam, might still get the smaller CX410V as an emergency/holiday cam.

:-)

[Dave Blackhurst]

@ Noa -
I don't think Sony is selling a lot of the higher end "consumer" cameras, one of the reasons the line is being culled. You have to keep in mind that the 520 when new was around $13-1400 (probably more in euro?). The top of the line has always retailed significantly above the $1K mark, but usually you'd find them "gently used" at decent prices... not so much anymore. Sony improves a little with each generation of cameras, but it's getting harder and harder to "improve" in ways that justify upgrading, The difference between the "top of the line" 520 and the 7xx cameras is minor (and you've hit the two points that I noticed). The magic eyeball is pretty impressive if you have to do any handheld work, if you're on a tripod, you can probably do just fine with "last years" cams, with very similar performance.

@Rob -
Before you buy a "cheap holiday cam", you may want to consider how you'll use it - some of the Point & shoot cameras do pretty good video (usually at the price of less zoom range), and are quite adequate for video, plus decent stills. I've got a few (now "aging", as they were 2010/2011 model) TX100's, great little "pocket" cam, and actually intermixes with bigger cams nicely. The RX100 is another little beast of a camera worth consideration, with a LOT of manual control, even in video, I'm not quite sure about intermixing yet, have to fiddle with the settings some more! The now discontinued but still available HX series are well reviewed as well, currently on discount/closeout!

[Nick Reuter]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I have posted below video before but just to show you what a Sony cx730 is capable of, only the steadicam shots are done with a dslr, all the rest (slider, tripod and handheld shots) with 2 sony cx730. (only in the church there was a 3rd sony xr520 on the balcony)
password: noa5
Private Video on Vimeo

Noa, did the password for this video change?

[Noa Put]

Yes it has changed, I pm'd you the changed one. I don't have approval from the couple to show the video but just here on this forum and only for those that would like to see what a cx730 can do at a wedding I don't see it as a problem, I only change the password again after a while. So for those that wish to see it just pm me and I"ll provide a temp password.

[Noa Put]

Didn't know where exactly to put this but since this older thread was about small handicams anyway I thought it might be good to revive this thread.

I just had to show this, I was at a wedding 2 days ago where an air-balloon was lifting up, I had my sony cx730 with me and shot it handheld while the balloon was airborn, held it with 2 hands a bit above waist-height. Just look at how ridiculously good the image stabilization is on that camera. If you don't believe it was handheld, just watch until the end of the film. Also see how smooth zoom you can perform.

I use this camera all the time during interviews to catch guest reaction where I can move around in stealth mode and being able to get near tripod like footage.

Vimeo

[Clive McLaughlin]

I'm one of the guys in the market for a new handicam (to go with a new dslr and lens too!), and I've been looking closely at the Sony CX730 which I've sourced for £865.

I was also looking around and stumbled upon this panasonic. I can find very little info on it anywhere and on this site I expect its a grey import. I just don't get how something of this form factor can be this price?

Is it it really just an average consumer level camera stuck inside a professional style body?

ProCameraShop | Panasonic HDC-MDH1 Pro Camcorder - SD High Definition - Panasonic - Camcorders

It certainly looks the part. (Not that size matters).

[James Manford]

Originally Posted by Clive McLaughlin

I'm one of the guys in the market for a new handicam (to go with a new dslr and lens too!), and I've been looking closely at the Sony CX730 which I've sourced for £865.

I was also looking around and stumbled upon this panasonic. I can find very little info on it anywhere and on this site I expect its a grey import. I just don't get how something of this form factor can be this price?

Is it it really just an average consumer level camera stuck inside a professional style body?

ProCameraShop | Panasonic HDC-MDH1 Pro Camcorder - SD High Definition - Panasonic - Camcorders

It certainly looks the part. (Not that size matters).

I have owned this camera ... and you're right. Consumer level in a pro body. Good for the budget conscious people that need something that looks serious for what ever reason.

Here's my review on it.

Feel/look - Certainly looks heavy and looks the part. In reality it feels very cheap and plasticky (is that a word? lol) but again, looks the business.

Video quality - if your filming in adequate lighting, then it's fine! you can push the colours and make them pop in post production. However if your filming in low light scenarios i.e. Weddings ... forget about it ! awful awful awful for low light. And it has a really bad problem with white balance on auto ... it keeps changing on it's own! Also do not even think about moving the camera around ... it has SEVERE jello problems. It's only useable on a tripod, or if you remain still and let the subjects move around in the scene.

Verdict - certainly worth the money for looks and as a C cam ... may be have it on a tripod just to show you have a good pro looking camera in your arsenal but actually run around and get the work done with your DSLRs or other smaller professional handicams.

If you keep an eye out on ebay, they can be had for around £400 in next to new condition. Which technically speaking is peanuts considering I spend that much on a single lens.

[Clive McLaughlin]

Thanks for the info James! Low light is a must so I'll stay well clear! Strange thing though that google seems unable to give me any low light specific comparisons for handicams.

Its like its not even a thing to want good low light quality. Normally the web is overflowing with top ten lists and the like. I can find no definitive expert analysis on this requirement by anyone I would trust.

Noa, do you believe that your CX730s are the best low light handicaps available in that price range? What are the closest competitors?

[Noa Put]

low light test, the nex-ea50 and the 550d where with a 14mm f2.8 lens

Vimeo