Shooting Weddings in 30p and Authoring Bluray

[Katie Fasel]

Specifically to any of you that use the Final Cut Pro and Encore Workflow...which workflow do you prefer?

Maybe this doesn't specifically belong in the wedding forum, but I posted here because that's what I do and I'm interested in hearing from others with projects that are a similar duration.

I've been through the lynda.com tutorials, and it seems easiest to just let Encore do the work, however, with a wedding video that is an hour long, shot in 1080/30p, the file size of exporting from Final Cut "using current settings" seems outrageous. Also, the H.264 transcoding takes a long time, even if I can work while it is transcoding.

I've also tested the MPEG 2 Elementary streams from compressor and those seem to work and look fine, but just curious to see what others use?

Also, if I understand it correctly, Bluray does not support 30p, so at what point is my project getting interlaced? Does Compressor and/or Encore do this automatically?

Feel free to move to an appropriate forum, but like I said, interested in the duration of other wedding videos.

Any help or input in the general Final Cut and Bluray workflow is greatly appreciated.

[Tim Bakland]

Hey Katie -

It should always stay progressive I believe. Maybe 60p on some players/tvs, but not interlaced I don't think.

My workflow: ProRes timeline, Export to QuickTime (yes big file but this file can eventually be tossed away as it's only a stepping stone for compressor: output for Blu-ray h264. Then Encore.

I do not let encore transcode. I don't like how they transcode for the DVD version. So I do two builds by replacing the video asset. Very simple. That way I've transcoded with my own settings.

So everything stays 30p the whole way. Again: not sure how Blu ray players differ in their ability to play 30p but my understanding is that the progressive stays.

[Nigel Barker]

The only progressive mode in the Blu-ray standard is 24p. If in the US you shot 30p or here in PAL-land 25p then there is no way to produce a Blu-ray in 25p/30p except by authoring in 50i/60i. A combination of the authoring package & the Blu-ray player should then do the right thing & even though the disc is flagged as 50i/60i when played back it will be 25p/30p on the TV.

[Jeff Harper]

Nigel, for the record, 720 60p is supported by Bluray.

Katie, not much help at this point, but I would think that in the future I would avoid shooting 30p if possible if your primary delivery is DVD or Bluray. Shooting in 1080 60i would be simpler and would look great. Progressive is nice when we can get it, but 60i looks just fine too.

[Tim Bakland]

That's interesting. I guess I stand corrected then. I didn't realize that the progressive didn't carry over in 30p. At any rate, whatever the case, when I follow the workflow I put above, the results on blu-ray have been gorgeous. And isn't 30p the way to go if you know you're going to be doing *both* blu-ray and DVD for given projects?

[Monday Isa]

Katie edit in 30P and when you're ready for rendering render as 60i for Bluray. As Nigel says it's 30P in a 60i container. Your video is never really interlaced. The fields are separated but they are rejoined upon playback in any bluray player. You keep the feel of 30P in the Bluray disc despite having to render 60i. I've done almost a hundred bluray's and this step works best for me and others I know. Hope that helps.

Monday

[Jeff Harper]

30p is not supported by Bluray or DVD, I don't believe. So your results are not stunning because you shoot in 30p but because your authoring program, etc are putting out great looking video shot in 1080. You have great looking footage to begin with, obviously!

The conversion or whatever is happening during your post production is simply working well for you and is playing out well on DVD and Bluray.

[Jeff Harper]

Just saw your post Isa, maybe I'm wrong in my previous post. I have never shot 30p, but it makes sense if it's in a 60i wrapper, or whatever, that would be nice and your method would make perfect sense, explaining why it turns out so well for folks like Tim and you.

I have shot only in modes that were not wrapped, or whatever it's called, so I have no experience. Now that I think about it I have shot in 24p in a wrapper but I converted footage prior to editing to remove the pulldown so it would match other unwrapped footage and keep things consistent.

[Monday Isa]

Hey Jeff I have shot in 30F/P since 2008 with my XHA1 to T2i to now my AF100. None of them shoot progressive in a container. My old HV30 did shoot 30P in a 60i container but I just combined the fields in the editing software. 30P is a good compromise for those not liking 24P or 60i and want something in between. Give it a try one day playing around with it and render out a Bluray on DVD as 60i to test in your bluray player to see if you like it. Take care.

Monday

[Jeff Harper]

Monday, doesn't it make sense to just shoot 60i since it's going to end up 60i anyway? Is there an advantage to shooting in 30p and converting? Other than being able to upload to the web in 30p?

Last year I shot in 720 60p which was awesome and is supported by Bluray so it came out great, of course, but I added a new cam without 720p so I switched over to 60i or 24p, depending on the needs of the project.

[Monday Isa]

The best thing I can tell you Jeff is to play with it. 30P looks very different than 60i and Katie shoots 30P because she sees the difference. There is no conversion going on at all as well. The only difference is when it comes time to render the bluray file you render as 60i instead of 30P. It is supper easy and no extra steps needed. Give it a try during free time.

[Jeff Harper]

Monday, when you render 30p to 60i as you describe it is being converted, and is my point. It will look superior in it's progressive form while on the computer, but when converted to 60i you are undoing the 30p, it is no longer progressive. It will still look fine on Bluray, but you're playing a 60i movie, not 30p, because it's been changed. Shooting in 30p will give an advantage for uploading to the internet as it will be "ready" in that aspect, but otherwise it just makes sense to me to shoot using the same frame rate as I'm delivering, but maybe I'm missing something.

I understand the appeal of progressive footage, shot dozens of wedding in 60p last year, looks great, and does not need to be interlaced for Bluray as it's supported.

At any rate I have only one camera that shoots in 30p, and since I run 3-4 cameras I need to stick with a frame rate that is common to all my cams.

To be clear I'm not criticizing the workflow, it just sounds illogical to shoot in 30p if you're converting to 60i anyway, but if it works for you then it's all good and doesn't matter.

[Adam Gold]

Jeff, I don't think 60i deinterlaced to 30p will look the same as material shot in 30p. Here's my understanding of how it works -- and I could be wrong, so I'd welcome any corrections from those who have more experience with this.

When you shoot 60i, you're taking 60 half-res pictures per second. The fields are not actually shot at the same time -- there is a 1/60th second time difference between them and that's why you see jagged interlacing lines. When you deinterlace this to 30p, some methods just throw away a field, while others find nifty ways to blend them, but the two fields can never be temporally identical.

Shooting in 30p -- even if it's wrapped in 60i -- means that both fields are shot at the same time. You have 30 full-res pictures per second. So even if they are then converted and split apart into fields, they are temporally identical and you shouldn't see interlacing lines even on an interlaced display. It should still look like 30p.

Now because you have fewer pictures per second it's not great for fast motion (sports) but some people like it, I guess. Gives you more of that stuttery cinematic look if that's what you're going for.

So I don't think they're the same.

[Jeff Harper]

Adam, thanks for your post. I was referring to shooting in 30p when the final product will be 60i, and how it seems unnecessary (unless that is all you have available, etc).

No one was talking about (I wasn't anyway) converting 60i to 30p. Katie had brought up how to deal with 30p, and I jumped in, I was kind of off topic, but I pointed out offered that there seems to be no advantage to shooting in 30p when you can't deliver in 30p to clients. I was merely pointing out that if you're going to interlace the footage in the end, you might as well shoot 60i anyway, that's all.

[Monday Isa]

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

...I was kind of off topic, but I pointed out offered that there seems to be no advantage to shooting in 30p when you can't deliver in 30p to clients. I was merely pointing out that if you're going to interlace the footage in the end, you might as well shoot 60i anyway, that's all.

Hi Jeff, There is a different feel all together with shooting 30P. Whether it's rendered to 60i or not it's 30P. The nex-vg10 shoots only 60i but it is 30P footage and many people confirmed it. All it does is splits the frame to 60i which when playing from any Bluray player is played back with the fields joined back together as 30P with no quality loss that I have seen. I get your point but if anyone wants to shoot 30P which is in every pro camcorder that shoots progressive they need to render out to 60i if it's going to bluray. If someone shoots 1280X720 30P how do they render that out to bluray if bluray only supports 720 24/60P? I hope the last question helps you understand it a bit better.