Shutter Speed/180˚ rule

[Travis Cossel]

I'm a 'special' child. d;-)

[Jeff Harper]

Scott, regarding doubling shutter speed, I should know better than to have been running at lower shutter speeds, as someone (maybe you, maybe someone else) already handed out this information, but my mindset was stuck at 1/60th because of camcorder days. Well, I learned yesterday that was a huge mistake.

I've been running at 1/60th for months, and yesterday ran it higher and instantly saw improvement. My footage looks MUCH better. I only raised it to 1/80th, so I can't imagine how much better it might look at 120. Man I feel dumb.

[Alen Koebel]

Originally Posted by Scott Shama

You're not making sense. The 180 degree shutter rule is 2 times the frame rate. for 60p it's 120 shutter not 60. Not sure how you think it's just the shutter that determines motion blur. It's the shutter in combination with the frame rate and the amount of available light.

No. The amount of time the shutter is open determines the amount of motion blur in each frame. Period. Now, I do recognize that how motion is rendered is also affected by the capture rate. With a higher capture rate you need less motion blur. However, that doesn't change the physical fact that I stated. Nor that you get the same amount of motion blur in all three cases I stated.

[David Schuurman]

I gotta say, for weddings...Heck for most things I shoot I gotta agree with Travis. Sure it gives a different look, but my clients don't notice or care, and my footage still looks good. I love flying shots at high shutter speeds!

I would never waste my time on a wedding fiddleing around with ND's. There's way too much important stuff for me to shoot.

[Alen Koebel]

I like what Travis said: "Shutter creates a look, and yes you should choose a shutter that gives the look you want." It's all about how it looks to you and to your customers. You should choose any combination of frame rate and shutter speed that gives you the look you're after. And you should also feel free to change those settings depending on exactly what you're recording, assuming you're not too busy to fiddle with settings. (Changing frame rate will complicate things in post, however.) You shouldn't feel beholden to a "rule" if it limits your creativity, especially one that was invented for a specific case (24p capture).

PS. The above assumes a clear understanding of how frame rate and shutter speed affect the look, i.e. that one is making an informed decision.

[Michael Simons]

I like filming the reception dancing at 125 shutter bc it gives a cool night club effect feel when their is a DJ with dance floor lights. Outdoors, I'll constantly shoot up to 4000 on a bright sunny day.

[Scott Shama]

Alen, So, I realize now I think we're talking about 2 different things... If you shoot 60p and place in a 24p timeline with no speed adjustment then you will want 60 shutter. But if you're shooting 60p as an overcrank method that will then be conformed to 24 or 30p you have to (should) observe the 180 degree rule and use 120 shutter. When the 60p is "slowed" down for use in the 24 or 30p timeline the shutter will then "look" correct and match any footage shot at 24 or 30p originally with a 50 or 60 shutter speed.

David, I'm sorry but if you think ND filters are a waste of time then I guess we differ in what we'll do for the films we create for our clients. They are so quick to put on and take off. Just curious... when is the bar that you reach for in your work just set at what your clients notice? If that were the case you could probably just shoot with an handycam depending on the client. Our standard is always what we notice not what we think a client might notice.

[Corey Graham]

The great thing about this forum is seeing all the different practices being used around the world. Different videographers will use different equipment and means to achieve results that are pleasing to themselves and their clients. I don't see much value in criticizing/bashing another's standards -- especially if the work they are putting out is satisfactory to them and their clients. The look of video is highly subjective, and everyone will have an opinion.

That being said, I always shoot at 1/60 shutter. I'll use ND filters when it's convenient and I don't have better things to do at the moment. I love the look I get, regardless.

[David Schuurman]

Originally Posted by Scott Shama

David, I'm sorry but if you think ND filters are a waste of time then I guess we differ in what we'll do for the films we create for our clients. They are so quick to put on and take off. Just curious... when is the bar that you reach for in your work just set at what your clients notice? If that were the case you could probably just shoot with an handycam depending on the client. Our standard is always what we notice not what we think a client might notice.

Scott, when I shoot a wedding, the most important thing for me is content, the second most important thing for me is overall quality, the third most important is my comfortability, mobility, and simplicity which enhances my enjoyment of the wedding (and my job), the 4th most important thing is quality that the client wont notice or care about. When I see fast shutter speeds it doesnt make me think of war movies, it makes me think of action, and heightened senses, which just so happens to go hand in hand with the flying shots I do during the day, and for more static shots with less movement you dont notice (referencing another poster in this thread) so in a sense me using a higher shutter actually IS done for a creative reason almost.

Thats my opinion based on how I shoot weddings. You can do what you want but I dont really appreciate your haughty tone and what you insinuate about me in that paragraph. Thanks.

[Alen Koebel]

Interesting to me that "handycam" is being used in such a negative sense. I realize it's now a generic term for "consumer camcorder with automatic settings," not specifically those from Sony, but have you looked closely at consumer camcorders lately? There are some quite decent models out there now ranging in price from $400 to $1000 USD. Resolution, noise levels, color accuracy, sensitivity, controls (many have manual modes, or at the very least priority modes) have all improved enormously over the last couple of years. Download some examples of native output from Vimeo uploads that provide them (mostly from those members with Vimeo Plus accounts) and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

While consumer camcorders don't provide all the on-camera controls a pro needs for quick reaction while shooting (one of the many reasons the pro cameras cost what they do) there is little reason to denigrate their output. Sure, the footage that Aunt Sue gets from her "handycam" won't be near as good as yours, but the reason has less to do with the fact she left it on automatic and more to do with everything else you've learned as a videographer that she doesn't know.

[Matthew Craggs]

With all due respect to anyone in this thread, it really bugs me when people talk about not correcting a mistake because they think the client won't notice. Does being a professional not mean recognizing and addressing problems that a non-professional would not notice? If we're not going to worry about things like proper shutter speeds, or anything else that the couple may not pick up on, then why are we being chosen to cover these events instead of a relative with a camcorder?

I don't care what the couple notices or doesn't notice, I'm going to give it my all and give the client the best product that I can deliver. "They'll never notice that anyway..." isn't in my vocabulary on a wedding day.

When I was in school one of my teachers said something that stuck with me. The topic of the lesson was exporting and he was going through the software options. When we came to one pass vs two pass encoding, he said, "I don't care if it takes an extra 2 days for a 2% increase in quality, I'm picking two pass."

(Disclaimer: I know that a fast shutter speed is a creative choice, I'm just using that example because it's being discussed in this thread. You could replace it with any number of things. I'm talking about a general attitude, not technical specifics.)

[Corey Graham]

Hi Matthew,

There's a big difference between mistakes and creative choices. No one said anything about ignoring mistakes because the client won't notice; the conversation has been more geared toward whether or not clients will appreciate or even notice the effect of different frame rates. Again, it's very subjective.

You're right about aiming for the best quality possible, but there are of course limits you must impose for the sake of keeping yourself out of the red. I don't rent $100,000 cameras with cranes, bring a full sound and lighting crew, and spend months in a multi-million-dollar editing bay for a wedding because it doesn't make financial sense -- not because I don't want to do the best job I possibly can.

[Alen Koebel]

Originally Posted by Matthew Craggs

With all due respect to anyone in this thread, it really bugs me when people talk about not correcting a mistake because they think the client won't notice. Does being a professional not mean recognizing and addressing problems that a non-professional would not notice? If we're not going to worry about things like proper shutter speeds, or anything else that the couple may not pick up on, then why are we being chosen to cover these events instead of a relative with a camcorder?

I note the "with all due respect" but you are presenting an either-or situation that leaves no room for the "relative with a camcorder" that _does_ happen to notice things the couple may not pick up on (not that I'm taking this personally <g>). In my case, I'm spending an inordinate amount of time in editing fixing the rookie mistakes I made during my second wedding shoot (haven't edited the first yet), things I know the couple either won't notice or not care about if they do notice, just because I can't stand to leave them in there. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I don't like to see mistakes, even small ones, in anything I author (google my name).

[David Schuurman]

if I was shooting film, or if shutter speed gave a look that I didnt like to my footage then I wouldn't do it. But I like the way it looks at high shutter speeds, and it doesn't really matter to me if it's bad form or whatever. if there was enough light I'd shoot high all the time. Thats just me.