Shutter Speed/180˚ rule

Jeff Harper · September 8th, 2011, 09:54 PM

When I shoot outdoors at very high shutter speed, rather than using a ND filter, things don't look right. I don't know what is wrong, can't even describe it, but it looks less crisp, more video like, kind of crappy in a general way. Like I said, can't describe it.

If I can keep my shutter speed closer to 120, or even under 200 or so, I feel better about it, but I have no proof of any kind it is better.

Scott Shama · September 9th, 2011, 08:59 PM

I'm sorry but I don't care who Shane is, he's wrong. If you shoot 4000 shutter with 24p or 30p your footage will look like you're storming the beach of Normandy in a Tom Hanks film or very close to it. If you don't notice how choppy that high a shutter setting makes your footage you probably need to develop a more discerning eye. The only way to get away with that kind of shutter setting is if there is almost no movement in the frame.

Travis Cossel · September 9th, 2011, 09:57 PM

Quote:

I'm sorry but I don't care who Shane is, he's wrong.

If you want to disagree with a renowned Hollywood DoP then be my guest. d;-p

Scott Shama · September 10th, 2011, 12:02 AM

I have much love for you Travis but considering you hadn't ever heard of the 180 degree shutter rule I wouldn't follow anyone blindly if I were you. d;-P

My own eyes tell me that jacking up the shutter on a DSLR has a serious effect on the motion quality of the video I shoot... Hollywood people pimp diets and political point of views too, that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly follow them just cause they are "renowned" and from hollywood. How 'bout providing a link to this guy saying that. Somehow I think that something was lost in translation from what he really said to what you attributed to him.

And to be clear, I did say that if there is very little movement you can probably get away with extremely high shutter settings. If you shoot people walking or running or any kind of action at 4000 shutter though it will look insanely choppy and IMO crappy.

Just re-read what you post. Shane saying that you don't have to be at 180 degrees is very different from you saying shutter is basically irrelevant and saying that it's ok to shoot at 4000 shutter. Going to 200 with 24p and 30p material is about the limit I've ever heard anyone being comfortable using and when my own eyes tell me is the limit without going into Saving Private Ryan territory. 4000 is like using ludicrous speed. d;-P

EDIT: ok I just found a video where mister Shane Hurlbut himself says to shoot at 50 shutter for (I think) 30p because it's 200 degree shutter.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...d=805735167001

Here is a guy breaking down what shutter is.
http://blog.tylerginter.com/?p=385

Robert Turchick · September 10th, 2011, 08:38 AM

As with most rules, they can be broken and the manufacturers have given us the ability to do so regarding shutter speed.
Same thing as a car manufacturer allowing it's vehicle to do 150mph. Can you break the speed limit? Of course and my insurance reminds me of all my tickets by charging me a ton of money.
Can you shoot at whatever shutter speed you want? Of course! And when your video gets looked at by people with critical eyes, it's not gonna look right and you'd better be able to explain why. And that you meant to make your video stutter as an effect.
I had to drill this into a guys head that shot some broll for me with a 5D. I double checked his shutter speeds to make sure he was set right and woila! The cameras matched and the video looked great! The ONLY time I have not followed the rules is when I shoot propeller or rotor driven aircraft (which I do a lot) understanding shutter speeds is critical. If you just blindly set it, you could do all sorts of weird things to the propellers or rotors.

Travis, do whatever makes you happy! Several of my shoots have aired nationally. Proof I did my job right is how good it looks on TV. Shows with less experienced DSLR shooters stick out like a sore thumb.

Jeff Harper · September 10th, 2011, 09:45 AM

So, for those who want to constrain our shutter speeds is it safe to say that when shooting 60p that 50 to 120 is a decent, safe range? How high can one go and expect reasonably good results? 200? Anyone?

Travis Cossel · September 10th, 2011, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Shama

I have much love for you Travis but considering you hadn't ever heard of the 180 degree shutter rule I wouldn't follow anyone blindly if I were you. d;-P

I already said I HAD heard of it but just hadn't heard of it referred to by that name. As I said earlier, I used to practice it. I've shot plenty with DSLR's now and experimented a lot and you DO NOT HAVE to shoot at 1/50th.

Can I see the difference between 30 and 4000? Yeah. But as you referred to earlier, 'Saving Private Ryan' had a high-shutter look. Boy was that movie a flop. d;-p

Scott Shama · September 10th, 2011, 09:46 PM

Feel free to post a link to one of your videos that has a major fight scene where a shutter of 4000 looks cool. BTW, mimicking the saving private ryan look only puts your shutter between 300 and 500 so 4000 is still ridiculous. I've seen enough of your work to know you aren't shooting high shutter for effect, you're doing because you choose not to use ND filters like Shane Hulbut recommends. You should maybe listen to him a little more closely. I mean he is a big time DoP from hollywood and all. d;P

For the record I have no problem with you shooting however you want. I could care less. But I do have a problem with you telling someone, who came on the board asking for advice, that shutter speeds don't matter with DSLRs. I mean c'mon you have to see that that's just bad right? mean you might as well tell him that focusing is optional too.

Scott Shama · September 10th, 2011, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

So, for those who want to constrain our shutter speeds is it safe to say that when shooting 60p that 50 to 120 is a decent, safe range? How high can one go and expect reasonably good results? 200? Anyone?

60 shutter with 60p will look smeary with movement. 120 should be your minimum with 60p unless you have to go lower for some reason out of your control like not enough light.

John Knight · September 10th, 2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Shama

mean you might as well tell him that focusing is optional too.

Judging by all the DSLR wedding trailers I've seen on this forum... focusing IS indeed optional. :-p

Scott Shama · September 10th, 2011, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Knight

Judging by all the DSLR wedding trailers I've seen on this forum... focusing IS indeed optional. :-p

That's funny! Mean... but still funny. :)

Alen Koebel · September 10th, 2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Shama

60 shutter with 60p will look smeary with movement.

Not in my experience. You get just as much motion blur in every frame as you would shooting 1/60th with 30p (which follows the 180 degree rule) or 1/60th with 24p or....well, you get the idea. It is the amount of motion blur that determines how smeary the movement will look. Think about it.

The 180 degree shutter rule was developed as a guideline for 24p capture. It need not, indeed should not, be applied for other capture rates. Use whatever gives you the _appropriate_ amount of motion blur.

Travis Cossel · September 10th, 2011, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Shama

For the record I have no problem with you shooting however you want. I could care less. But I do have a problem with you telling someone, who came on the board asking for advice, that shutter speeds don't matter with DSLRs. I mean c'mon you have to see that that's just bad right? mean you might as well tell him that focusing is optional too.

If there is one thing I'm good at it's being misunderstood online. I never intended to say that shutter speeds don't matter AT ALL. I simply was trying to say that the old rule of always having to double your shutter speed isn't necessary.

Shutter creates a look, and yes you should choose a shutter that gives the look you want. But there's no way that people shooting with DSLR's should feel they ALWAYS have to shoot at 1/50th if they're shooting 24p.

Scott Shama · September 10th, 2011, 11:59 PM

You're not making sense. The 180 degree shutter rule is 2 times the frame rate. for 60p it's 120 shutter not 60. Not sure how you think it's just the shutter that determines motion blur. It's the shutter in combination with the frame rate and the amount of available light.

Scott Shama · September 11th, 2011, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

If there is one thing I'm good at it's being misunderstood online. I never intended to say that shutter speeds don't matter AT ALL. I simply was trying to say that the old rule of always having to double your shutter speed isn't necessary.

Shutter creates a look, and yes you should choose a shutter that gives the look you want. But there's no way that people shooting with DSLR's should feel they ALWAYS have to shoot at 1/50th if they're shooting 24p.

If you would have said that in the first place instead, you could have saved me a lot of typing. :)

September 8th, 2011, 09:54 PM	#16
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Shutter Speed/180˚ rule When I shoot outdoors at very high shutter speed, rather than using a ND filter, things don't look right. I don't know what is wrong, can't even describe it, but it looks less crisp, more video like, kind of crappy in a general way. Like I said, can't describe it. If I can keep my shutter speed closer to 120, or even under 200 or so, I feel better about it, but I have no proof of any kind it is better. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 9th, 2011, 08:59 PM	#17
Scott Shama Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 399	Re: Shutter Speed/180˚ rule I'm sorry but I don't care who Shane is, he's wrong. If you shoot 4000 shutter with 24p or 30p your footage will look like you're storming the beach of Normandy in a Tom Hanks film or very close to it. If you don't notice how choppy that high a shutter setting makes your footage you probably need to develop a more discerning eye. The only way to get away with that kind of shutter setting is if there is almost no movement in the frame.

September 10th, 2011, 12:02 AM	#19
Scott Shama Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 399	Re: Shutter Speed/180˚ rule I have much love for you Travis but considering you hadn't ever heard of the 180 degree shutter rule I wouldn't follow anyone blindly if I were you. d;-P My own eyes tell me that jacking up the shutter on a DSLR has a serious effect on the motion quality of the video I shoot... Hollywood people pimp diets and political point of views too, that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly follow them just cause they are "renowned" and from hollywood. How 'bout providing a link to this guy saying that. Somehow I think that something was lost in translation from what he really said to what you attributed to him. And to be clear, I did say that if there is very little movement you can probably get away with extremely high shutter settings. If you shoot people walking or running or any kind of action at 4000 shutter though it will look insanely choppy and IMO crappy. Just re-read what you post. Shane saying that you don't have to be at 180 degrees is very different from you saying shutter is basically irrelevant and saying that it's ok to shoot at 4000 shutter. Going to 200 with 24p and 30p material is about the limit I've ever heard anyone being comfortable using and when my own eyes tell me is the limit without going into Saving Private Ryan territory. 4000 is like using ludicrous speed. d;-P EDIT: ok I just found a video where mister Shane Hurlbut himself says to shoot at 50 shutter for (I think) 30p because it's 200 degree shutter. http://link.brightcove.com/services/...d=805735167001 Here is a guy breaking down what shutter is. http://blog.tylerginter.com/?p=385 Last edited by Scott Shama; September 10th, 2011 at 03:01 AM.

September 10th, 2011, 08:38 AM	#20
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: Shutter Speed/180˚ rule As with most rules, they can be broken and the manufacturers have given us the ability to do so regarding shutter speed. Same thing as a car manufacturer allowing it's vehicle to do 150mph. Can you break the speed limit? Of course and my insurance reminds me of all my tickets by charging me a ton of money. Can you shoot at whatever shutter speed you want? Of course! And when your video gets looked at by people with critical eyes, it's not gonna look right and you'd better be able to explain why. And that you meant to make your video stutter as an effect. I had to drill this into a guys head that shot some broll for me with a 5D. I double checked his shutter speeds to make sure he was set right and woila! The cameras matched and the video looked great! The ONLY time I have not followed the rules is when I shoot propeller or rotor driven aircraft (which I do a lot) understanding shutter speeds is critical. If you just blindly set it, you could do all sorts of weird things to the propellers or rotors. Travis, do whatever makes you happy! Several of my shoots have aired nationally. Proof I did my job right is how good it looks on TV. Shows with less experienced DSLR shooters stick out like a sore thumb. __________________ The older I get, the better I was!

September 10th, 2011, 09:45 AM	#21
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Shutter Speed/180˚ rule So, for those who want to constrain our shutter speeds is it safe to say that when shooting 60p that 50 to 120 is a decent, safe range? How high can one go and expect reasonably good results? 200? Anyone? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

September 10th, 2011, 09:46 PM	#23
Scott Shama Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 399	Re: Shutter Speed/180˚ rule Feel free to post a link to one of your videos that has a major fight scene where a shutter of 4000 looks cool. BTW, mimicking the saving private ryan look only puts your shutter between 300 and 500 so 4000 is still ridiculous. I've seen enough of your work to know you aren't shooting high shutter for effect, you're doing because you choose not to use ND filters like Shane Hulbut recommends. You should maybe listen to him a little more closely. I mean he is a big time DoP from hollywood and all. d;P For the record I have no problem with you shooting however you want. I could care less. But I do have a problem with you telling someone, who came on the board asking for advice, that shutter speeds don't matter with DSLRs. I mean c'mon you have to see that that's just bad right? mean you might as well tell him that focusing is optional too.

September 10th, 2011, 11:59 PM	#29
Scott Shama Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 399	Re: Shutter Speed/180˚ rule You're not making sense. The 180 degree shutter rule is 2 times the frame rate. for 60p it's 120 shutter not 60. Not sure how you think it's just the shutter that determines motion blur. It's the shutter in combination with the frame rate and the amount of available light. Last edited by Scott Shama; September 11th, 2011 at 01:07 AM.