Why so many new wedding videographers?

Jonathan Houser · August 16th, 2005, 01:58 AM

I think that the main reason for the increase in videographers in the past 6 or so years is just the accessibility of the equipment. In the Seattle area there are about 10 new companies a year. Who knows how long they will stick around, but I think that is the reason more people are trying it at least. Regardless of the equipment, it's a lot of work. As a result only a small percentage will stick around. More than last year though. I'm fine with it. It pushes me to produce better more relevant films.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

A better question here would be how soon will high-end pros have to upgrade to some sort of HD equipment because their customers demand it?

I don't know if I totally agree with that. Of all the brides I've worked with over the past 5 years, very very few have even asked about my equipment. They ask if it's "Digital" (which they assume is the best) and we move on to the creative aspect of the video. I think that if your work is compelling enough SD or HD it won't really matter. I shoot a ton of Super8, I don't hear any brides complaining about my 30-year-old camera. Now, commercial jobs are a different story all together.

Jonathan
www.lumierebridal.com

Peter Jefferson · August 16th, 2005, 05:14 AM

i ownt be worrying about HD until my clients can go out and buy a HD dvd player, and go to the local video shop and hire a movie in HD.. until then, im not worrying about it one iota...

Why?? I mean theyre not paying for me to use an Avid adrenaline system, and theyre not paying me for master tapes of HDV (god knows which hdv format will prevail... ) theyre not paying for me to direct their shoot, theyre not paying for me to bust my ass like my corp jobs do...
No, people get what they pay for and what they pay for is good quality and strong reliable service.

HD is not the be all and end all.. what good is HD if your sound is garbage? What good is HD if your shots look like a 7yr old with dads handycam? What good is HD if you only watch it on your computer in DivX or WMV and you cant send a copy to your family and friends overseas?
Seriously so many poeple worry too much about "hd this and HD that.. " but what are the true advantages of HD??
-Higher sampling rate for colour (i can tweak this in post NOW without needing a HD camera)
-higher resolution at the acquisition level (cool i can reframe shots in sd, or i can zoom in and still retail full res sd... )
-Exceptional SD delivery that compares well to full res progressive scan.
(just but im a picky bastard.. )
-Potential delivery to HD DVD but by the time that happens, your camera wil be obsolete and or superceeded by the next model (nuff said, but i can also scale my full res Progressive SD footage and still give me a nice smooth image without looking like home video...scaled SD to HD 720p to my eye looks much more filmic than 1080i, which is sharp but still feels like home video )

so in all, theres nothing i cant do now with an SD camera than what i could do with a HDV/HD camera.. oh apart from reframing... but thats about it.. if i were you, i wouldnt worry so much abotu HD.. id worry about content..

Anthony Mooney · August 16th, 2005, 09:18 AM

My belief about "wannabes" videographers is that marketing created a trend -videography - They just want to buy all these "cool" gear and have no idea how much tax it will come out of their profits.

Offcource, they are people that really like the field and are not victims of marketing or trends.

As technology and marketing will get stronger - many people will lose lots of money and time - in the years to come - many people will end up poor, and few will end up very very rich.

Mike Teutsch · August 16th, 2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Mooney

My belief about "wannabes" videographers is that marketing created a trend -videography - They just want to buy all these "cool" gear and have no idea how much tax it will come out of their profits.

Offcource, they are people that really like the field and are not victims of marketing or trends.

As technology and marketing will get stronger - many people will lose lots of money and time - in the years to come - many people will end up poor, and few will end up very very rich.

All of this is very normal in any industry. I do think that it might be a little unfair to call them all "wannabes" videographers. Many years ago Steven Spielberg was a "wannabes" movie maker. He turned out Ok, and I think he went around filming anything he could as a kid.

Like any other industry, they invest their money and try. If they make it fine, if they don't that's fine too! It's up to them, and there are as many different reasons for them trying, as there are people attempting.

One of these "wannabes" videographers, may just be the next Spielberg.

Mike

Jennifer Moak · August 16th, 2005, 04:25 PM

[QUOTE=I was just wondering if this seeming (to me) influx of posts of complete newbies is normal, or a sign of the last year or two. And if it's a new phenomenon, why?[/QUOTE]

So often I hear, "Oh it must be so much fun to do what you do." And of course, it is... because I love it, which is the only reason I can stick with it. I don't think they realize how much stress is involved until they've been thru it a few times. Also, they don't realize how low-man on the todem pole videog are and they aren't happy when they find out.

Also, I so often see and hear new couples, who just went thru their own weddings, thinking they can do it better.... only b/c they were too cheap to hire someone professional with high standards. It's only later that they find out it's not just a matter of point and shoot the shiny new camera.

Lastly, I don't think they realize how personally and how seriously couples take their wedding video and photos and they are surprised to find out the good enough doesn't always fly. They think it's frivilous and easy - a quick weekend job that pays well for a day's work. SURPRISE - it's not all in a day's work. If that's what they are looking for, become a DJ.

So lucky for us who are dedicated -this 'phenomonon' will only serve to make us stronger.

Anthony Mooney · August 16th, 2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

All of this is very normal in any industry. I do think that it might be a little unfair to call them all "wannabes" videographers. Many years ago Steven Spielberg was a "wannabes" movie maker. He turned out Ok, and I think he went around filming anything he could as a kid.

Like any other industry, they invest their money and try. If they make it fine, if they don't that's fine too! It's up to them, and there are as many different reasons for them trying, as there are people attempting.

One of these "wannabes" videographers, may just be the next Spielberg.

Mike

I all ready made the separation betwwen wanbnabes and serious.
Also, It is true that a Spielberg might come out,
But remember you are in the USA, for every Spielberg there are about 100.000 that will end up wroking in Shop rite.

Mike Teutsch · August 16th, 2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Mooney

I all ready made the separation betwwen wanbnabes and serious.
Also, It is true that a Spielberg might come out,
But remember you are in the USA, for every Spielberg there are about 100.000 that will end up wroking in Shop rite.

Shop rite needs people too, but it is not our job to discourage anyone, maybe a little honest advice and help now and then though.

As far as,... "Offcource, they are people that really like the field and are not victims of marketing or trends," as you stated.

I don't think, from what I've read here, that many if any go into the field just because they think taping wedding would be cool. I maybe wrong, but I think most try doing weddings in order to pay for a very expensive hobby they wish to become a career in video production or movies.

Just my thoughts, thanks for yours Anthony.

Good luck to all of them. There is a great axiom that they should heed, and that is, "The Harder They Work, The Luckier They Will Get!"

Mike

Anthony Mooney · August 16th, 2005, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Shop rite needs people too, but it is not our job to discourage anyone, maybe a little honest advice and help now and then though.

As far as,... "Offcource, they are people that really like the field and are not victims of marketing or trends," as you stated.

I don't think, from what I've read here, that many if any go into the field just because they think taping wedding would be cool. I maybe wrong, but I think most try doing weddings in order to pay for a very expensive hobby they wish to become a career in video production or movies.

Just my thoughts, thanks for yours Anthony.

Good luck to all of them. There is a great axiom that they should heed, and that is, "The Harder They Work, The Luckier They Will Get!"

Mike

I believe that you are wrong (regarding marketing/cool=reason for wannabes). 10 years ago, when videography was Beta/SVS A/B roll, people (young guys) were not crazy about it. Why do yoiu think the # of videographers increases the last 5 years? If you think about it you will see the "trend" and the marketing behind it.

I can tell you how big is the market (especialy for new guys) because I advertize on the web (where new guys do too).
I can also tell you how much the guys at the and of list do, because i am first on the list.

These days you can shoot a wedding/ edit and deliver if you have 5K. You can also built a web-site for $10 a month. It is easy - that is why kids do it.
It also "exciting" that is why kids do it.

10 years ago - there were no $10 web-sites not 5k shooting/editing.

The point here (if I got you confused) is the original question "why so many videographers"? The answer is : because is easy, is cool (marketing helped a lot).

I don't have a probelm with wannabes (i was one too), instead it makes my business looks good because I am a professional. But the fact is : videography is cool!!!

Now if you are new your self, ask you self how many times you thought what your taxes will be before you buy your camcorder. If you didn't thought about taxes then you didn't start by having "business" in the brain. Instead you started it for one or both of these two reasons 1. you like it and 2. is cool.

And if you chose "cool' then you support my thoughts.

by the way; thats a nice debate!

Mike Teutsch · August 16th, 2005, 06:55 PM

Anthony,

It is a nice debate. You may be and probably are right, but...

The original idea or question was why so many are going into "wedding videos," and I still don't think that is why they are doing it. You are an experianced wedding videographer from what I read in your posts, but I would be scared to death to do one. I'd rather do a Big corporations video for half the money than someones wedding. I can redo the corp video. No guts!

I still think most would rather be doing corp video, commercials and inde films. The weddings are to pay the bills, for most. Of course that leaves it open to you, and that's good.

I also think that the reason there are more getting in, is the ease of the equipment and the low prices. I had different cameras years ago and just never used them. Non-digital, no easy editing system, about all us idiots could do was take a few pictures of the kids or drag races. Watch them a few times and let them collect dust on the shelf. It is so much different now. And, for the money, the equipment is about half the cost of stuff years ago. Dollar for dollar, what we have now is less expensive. You just buy more of it!

Anyway, thanks for the debate, and best of luck to you and your business, stay Cool.

Mike

Peter Jefferson · August 16th, 2005, 07:09 PM

"Lastly, I don't think they realize how personally and how seriously couples take their wedding video and photos and they are surprised to find out the good enough doesn't always fly. They think it's frivilous and easy - a quick weekend job that pays well for a day's work. SURPRISE - it's not all in a day's work. If that's what they are looking for, become a DJ."

Good call..
Again however, thlis al comes down to the marketting and educational side of things. Corporate clients understand how much work is involved, however wedding clients do not. They have a "consumer" mindset with misconceptions, however i INSIST on educating them before they even book me.
Also with regard to delivery, most photographers deliver in a matter of 2 to 6 weeks after the wedding. With video during peak season there is NO WAY a one man band can achieve this delivery schedule unless theyre hacking away and not really giving a shit. So this in itself puts people off a bit when theyre told they have to wait at least 12 weeks.. but hey, if you want a quality product thats tight, thats what you get.
Marketting has alot to blame for misconceived attitudes, as does the sell sell sell mentality of alot of bridal webites. Not many go through the intricacies of how much work is actually involved, and i think this is where the industry falls over.. alot of poeple jsut think its about adding music and a couple of titles.. they dont SEE or CONSIDER the art behind it. What I shoot is my paint, my NLE is my canvas, my soundtrack is my eisle which keeps my art grounded and stable, and most importantly my imagination is my brush....
All i can say is that if ur a newbie or not.. dont undersell yourself. Youve made a big investment in equipment and energy.. how much is it really worth to you?

less than 20% of couples consider video as oppsed to over 85% considering photos. Selll your wares as a photographer would and you might be surprised as to how thoguhts on video would evolve

Stephen Jackson · August 16th, 2005, 07:24 PM

Yiou have to remember it's not just new wedding videographers it's new film makers period. The cheaper prices, betetr quality equipment is allowing anyone with an idea, script etc. to act like a filmmaker.

The trick is how do true professionals who have spent time perfecting their craft stay ahead of the hacks.

I was taught that to last long in business you need to create and improve your Differential Advantage and target a successful niche.

What does my business do that my competitors can't do without spending a substantial amount of time and money or what target niches can I create where I'm the SME for that niche.

Another good thing about having so many newbies in the industry is that if you have successfully market yourself as an industry leader in your area, you'll probably being getting a lot more new business cleaning up newbie mistakes.

I've gotten calls over the years from videographers who sold more than they could handle and needed asst. That's how I landed my largest client, cleaning up a newbie shortsighted blunder

Anthony Mooney · August 16th, 2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Anthony,

It is a nice debate. You may be and probably are right, but...

The original idea or question was why so many are going into "wedding videos," and I still don't think that is why they are doing it. You are an experianced wedding videographer from what I read in your posts, but I would be scared to death to do one. I'd rather do a Big corporations video for half the money than someones wedding. I can redo the corp video. No guts!

I still think most would rather be doing corp video, commercials and inde films. The weddings are to pay the bills, for most. Of course that leaves it open to you, and that's good.

I also think that the reason there are more getting in, is the ease of the equipment and the low prices. I had different cameras years ago and just never used them. Non-digital, no easy editing system, about all us idiots could do was take a few pictures of the kids or drag races. Watch them a few times and let them collect dust on the shelf. It is so much different now. And, for the money, the equipment is about half the cost of stuff years ago. Dollar for dollar, what we have now is less expensive. You just buy more of it!

Anyway, thanks for the debate, and best of luck to you and your business, stay Cool.

Mike

I am thanking you - stay cool too:)

Anthony

Glen Elliott · August 16th, 2005, 09:21 PM

Bob, there is no reason to feel threatened. I agree with Chris- the more the merrier. All I worry about is that I'm producing the best work I possibly can. If you produce high quaility work, and conduct good customer service these "newbie" poping up serve you no harm what so ever.

In fact- one can look at it from the other perspective and see good in it. Rather than standing out in a crowd of two...maybe this influx of new videographers will further make you shine.

Regarding the point Joel brought up about not hiding your demo behind passwords- I feel a bit torn. On one side I understand and agree with his point. On the other I DO feel it's important that the correct audience is viewing your clips. A videographer friend of mine did some research into the traffic on his site. He found out that over 80% of the traffic downloading/viewing his clips were from wedding videography message boards. However on the same token I don't hold back handing out demos at weddings or sending one to a potential client. Heck, I seem to share a piece or two from almost every wedding I produce. God knows if there are demo's floating out there with someone elses bug on them. Ultimately it really doesn't matter I suppose.

Bob Costa · August 16th, 2005, 10:29 PM

Hi Glen!!

I don't feel threatened, I don;t even care. I am just amazed that the tail seems to wag the dog now. I would fully expect to see posts on the boards like:

I have an idea for a film, what do I do next?

I have been shooting for a year, and now someone wants me to do a wedding. Help!!

I just got laid off. How can I turn my hobby into a business?

But there seems to be an influx of:

I don't know anything about video, I don't even own a camera, but I want to do wedding videos. What do I need to buy?

It just seems completely backward, especially for something so technically challenging and diverse. I guess it is because there are just enough videographers out there now that people figure it is the next big thing (which it is). Maybe I am overreacting to their question, they ask it innocently, and they really want a complete answer instead of the usual "Buy a PD-170". But I guess people buy a farm instead of learning to milk cows first.

A.J. Briones · August 17th, 2005, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Costa

But there seems to be an influx of:

I don't know anything about video, I don't even own a camera, but I want to do wedding videos. What do I need to buy?

you gotta admit, this is the best place to ask.

but just because they don't own a 3-ccd camera doesn't mean they "don't even own a camera", or never logged any time using one. if you ask me, those people are doing the right thing, asking questions and doing research and making sure they are getting what is right for them before they spend their hard earned money.

and newbies? weren't we all? didn't we all have "stupid" questions to ask at one point? aren't you glad that there's this cool place where people interested in getting into dv filmmaking can get the right answers instead of asking the "gadget guru" at best buy?

i applaud people who dive into their passions. no experience? no problem! get some books. google yourself a film school education. go buy a camera. get out there and shoot to your heart's content. go make those mistakes, then go learn from them. and before this turns into a "these guys are undercutting our business and quality" thread, note that these guys don't have reels, so they will be learning with free friend-of-friend or cheap weddings to begin with. they don't affect my bottom line.

August 16th, 2005, 09:18 AM	#18
Anthony Mooney Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Long Branch NJ Posts: 69	victims of marketing? My belief about "wannabes" videographers is that marketing created a trend -videography - They just want to buy all these "cool" gear and have no idea how much tax it will come out of their profits. Offcource, they are people that really like the field and are not victims of marketing or trends. As technology and marketing will get stronger - many people will lose lots of money and time - in the years to come - many people will end up poor, and few will end up very very rich.

August 16th, 2005, 04:25 PM	#20
Jennifer Moak New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 24	Fast burnout, another trend [QUOTE=I was just wondering if this seeming (to me) influx of posts of complete newbies is normal, or a sign of the last year or two. And if it's a new phenomenon, why?[/QUOTE] So often I hear, "Oh it must be so much fun to do what you do." And of course, it is... because I love it, which is the only reason I can stick with it. I don't think they realize how much stress is involved until they've been thru it a few times. Also, they don't realize how low-man on the todem pole videog are and they aren't happy when they find out. Also, I so often see and hear new couples, who just went thru their own weddings, thinking they can do it better.... only b/c they were too cheap to hire someone professional with high standards. It's only later that they find out it's not just a matter of point and shoot the shiny new camera. Lastly, I don't think they realize how personally and how seriously couples take their wedding video and photos and they are surprised to find out the good enough doesn't always fly. They think it's frivilous and easy - a quick weekend job that pays well for a day's work. SURPRISE - it's not all in a day's work. If that's what they are looking for, become a DJ. So lucky for us who are dedicated -this 'phenomonon' will only serve to make us stronger. __________________ Thanks, Jenn M

August 16th, 2005, 06:55 PM	#24
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	Anthony, It is a nice debate. You may be and probably are right, but... The original idea or question was why so many are going into "wedding videos," and I still don't think that is why they are doing it. You are an experianced wedding videographer from what I read in your posts, but I would be scared to death to do one. I'd rather do a Big corporations video for half the money than someones wedding. I can redo the corp video. No guts! I still think most would rather be doing corp video, commercials and inde films. The weddings are to pay the bills, for most. Of course that leaves it open to you, and that's good. I also think that the reason there are more getting in, is the ease of the equipment and the low prices. I had different cameras years ago and just never used them. Non-digital, no easy editing system, about all us idiots could do was take a few pictures of the kids or drag races. Watch them a few times and let them collect dust on the shelf. It is so much different now. And, for the money, the equipment is about half the cost of stuff years ago. Dollar for dollar, what we have now is less expensive. You just buy more of it! Anyway, thanks for the debate, and best of luck to you and your business, stay Cool. Mike __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH.

August 16th, 2005, 07:24 PM	#26
Stephen Jackson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: New York NY Posts: 77	Yiou have to remember it's not just new wedding videographers it's new film makers period. The cheaper prices, betetr quality equipment is allowing anyone with an idea, script etc. to act like a filmmaker. The trick is how do true professionals who have spent time perfecting their craft stay ahead of the hacks. I was taught that to last long in business you need to create and improve your Differential Advantage and target a successful niche. What does my business do that my competitors can't do without spending a substantial amount of time and money or what target niches can I create where I'm the SME for that niche. Another good thing about having so many newbies in the industry is that if you have successfully market yourself as an industry leader in your area, you'll probably being getting a lot more new business cleaning up newbie mistakes. I've gotten calls over the years from videographers who sold more than they could handle and needed asst. That's how I landed my largest client, cleaning up a newbie shortsighted blunder __________________ Stephen Jackson RoaDDoggZ productions www.roaddoggz.com

August 16th, 2005, 10:29 PM	#29
Bob Costa Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Venice, FL Posts: 850	Hi Glen!! I don't feel threatened, I don;t even care. I am just amazed that the tail seems to wag the dog now. I would fully expect to see posts on the boards like: I have an idea for a film, what do I do next? I have been shooting for a year, and now someone wants me to do a wedding. Help!! I just got laid off. How can I turn my hobby into a business? But there seems to be an influx of: I don't know anything about video, I don't even own a camera, but I want to do wedding videos. What do I need to buy? It just seems completely backward, especially for something so technically challenging and diverse. I guess it is because there are just enough videographers out there now that people figure it is the next big thing (which it is). Maybe I am overreacting to their question, they ask it innocently, and they really want a complete answer instead of the usual "Buy a PD-170". But I guess people buy a farm instead of learning to milk cows first. __________________ You are either growing or dying.

August 16th, 2005, 05:14 AM	#17
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	i ownt be worrying about HD until my clients can go out and buy a HD dvd player, and go to the local video shop and hire a movie in HD.. until then, im not worrying about it one iota... Why?? I mean theyre not paying for me to use an Avid adrenaline system, and theyre not paying me for master tapes of HDV (god knows which hdv format will prevail... ) theyre not paying for me to direct their shoot, theyre not paying for me to bust my ass like my corp jobs do... No, people get what they pay for and what they pay for is good quality and strong reliable service. HD is not the be all and end all.. what good is HD if your sound is garbage? What good is HD if your shots look like a 7yr old with dads handycam? What good is HD if you only watch it on your computer in DivX or WMV and you cant send a copy to your family and friends overseas? Seriously so many poeple worry too much about "hd this and HD that.. " but what are the true advantages of HD?? -Higher sampling rate for colour (i can tweak this in post NOW without needing a HD camera) -higher resolution at the acquisition level (cool i can reframe shots in sd, or i can zoom in and still retail full res sd... ) -Exceptional SD delivery that compares well to full res progressive scan. (just but im a picky bastard.. ) -Potential delivery to HD DVD but by the time that happens, your camera wil be obsolete and or superceeded by the next model (nuff said, but i can also scale my full res Progressive SD footage and still give me a nice smooth image without looking like home video...scaled SD to HD 720p to my eye looks much more filmic than 1080i, which is sharp but still feels like home video ) so in all, theres nothing i cant do now with an SD camera than what i could do with a HDV/HD camera.. oh apart from reframing... but thats about it.. if i were you, i wouldnt worry so much abotu HD.. id worry about content..

August 16th, 2005, 07:09 PM	#25
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"Lastly, I don't think they realize how personally and how seriously couples take their wedding video and photos and they are surprised to find out the good enough doesn't always fly. They think it's frivilous and easy - a quick weekend job that pays well for a day's work. SURPRISE - it's not all in a day's work. If that's what they are looking for, become a DJ." Good call.. Again however, thlis al comes down to the marketting and educational side of things. Corporate clients understand how much work is involved, however wedding clients do not. They have a "consumer" mindset with misconceptions, however i INSIST on educating them before they even book me. Also with regard to delivery, most photographers deliver in a matter of 2 to 6 weeks after the wedding. With video during peak season there is NO WAY a one man band can achieve this delivery schedule unless theyre hacking away and not really giving a shit. So this in itself puts people off a bit when theyre told they have to wait at least 12 weeks.. but hey, if you want a quality product thats tight, thats what you get. Marketting has alot to blame for misconceived attitudes, as does the sell sell sell mentality of alot of bridal webites. Not many go through the intricacies of how much work is actually involved, and i think this is where the industry falls over.. alot of poeple jsut think its about adding music and a couple of titles.. they dont SEE or CONSIDER the art behind it. What I shoot is my paint, my NLE is my canvas, my soundtrack is my eisle which keeps my art grounded and stable, and most importantly my imagination is my brush.... All i can say is that if ur a newbie or not.. dont undersell yourself. Youve made a big investment in equipment and energy.. how much is it really worth to you? less than 20% of couples consider video as oppsed to over 85% considering photos. Selll your wares as a photographer would and you might be surprised as to how thoguhts on video would evolve

August 16th, 2005, 09:21 PM	#28
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Bob, there is no reason to feel threatened. I agree with Chris- the more the merrier. All I worry about is that I'm producing the best work I possibly can. If you produce high quaility work, and conduct good customer service these "newbie" poping up serve you no harm what so ever. In fact- one can look at it from the other perspective and see good in it. Rather than standing out in a crowd of two...maybe this influx of new videographers will further make you shine. Regarding the point Joel brought up about not hiding your demo behind passwords- I feel a bit torn. On one side I understand and agree with his point. On the other I DO feel it's important that the correct audience is viewing your clips. A videographer friend of mine did some research into the traffic on his site. He found out that over 80% of the traffic downloading/viewing his clips were from wedding videography message boards. However on the same token I don't hold back handing out demos at weddings or sending one to a potential client. Heck, I seem to share a piece or two from almost every wedding I produce. God knows if there are demo's floating out there with someone elses bug on them. Ultimately it really doesn't matter I suppose.