12 min record?

Michael Simons · February 14th, 2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Howells

Michael, there are many things in life I've not tried but which I'm prepared to bet a pound to a penny wouldn't suit me.

hey Philip. My point is that people are offering Amanda advice on the 12 minute limit when they don't have experience shooting with a DSLR. To say it can't be done for an hour long church ceremony is incorrect information.

Amanda Duncan · February 14th, 2011, 06:36 PM

Chris, thank you. I get tickled by everyone here. This is certainly not rocket science and some take it as seriously as so. I haven't made my mind up yet one way or the other. I liked the hmc80 to begin with. Then the 150. Those are the vid cams I'm looking at the most. The dslr is just really exciting and interesting. I'm not sure yet. But keep me posted on your likes and dislikes with the 80.

Wayne Faulkner · February 14th, 2011, 07:14 PM

Amanda didn't initially mention she was going to be using 12 minute dslr for a wedding, and I haven't been here long so forgive me for not knowing her background, but I've been waiting for her to reveal in a later post what she would be using it for.

I've read her later post on this thread and have the impression it must be for covering weddings.

Out of all the responses I've been waiting for someone with experience of covering live sport with a dslr, other than the commercialised games in the US with advertising breaks every 7.5 minutes.

I can't see any use for dslr as a primary camera for recording rugby for instance, with two 40 minute halves, but I'm willing to consider reasoned argument from someone with more experience.

Writing as someone who would rather look at the practicalities of recording any live event, changing or swapping out memory cards every 12 minutes would appear to generate a lot of unnecessary rushing about and clock watching on a multi camera event, with the increased possibility of missing an important moment either because you're concentrating on your equipment rather than what is in front of you, or because you're not recording during such changes.

Even as an amateur I swap batteries and miniDV at half time, even though I have 85 minute HDV tapes, because you only get the one chance of recording a live event.

Johannes Soetandi · February 14th, 2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Faulkner

..changing or swapping out memory cards every 12 minutes ...

Just to avoid any confusion, the 12 minutes limit does not mean a memory card can only record 12 minute and then you have to swap to another one.. 12 minutes limit is a continuous recording limit (on Canon), so you can stop/record again anytime within or after the 12 minutes. A 16GB card would take about 45 minutes in total...

To cover a full wedding ceremony/reception without cut.. you need multiple cam obviously and a system that works

Personally, I would definitely choose a video camera that can run 1 hour long without cut than a camera that limits me to 12 mins continuous shot.. but with the benefit in cost, image quality and possibility the DSLR offers, I was willing to take the risk.. and it worked for me so far (and others in the forums).. but it's definitely not for everyone

As much as Amanda receives all the advises in here.. the only ultimate factor that can help her in choosing is to actually try both and find out which suits her style and purpose. Mix and match if you need and don't get restricted

My 2 cents..

Chris Harding · February 14th, 2011, 08:46 PM

Hi Amanda

You have to remember that most of us are guys and we tend to love the technology and talking (and arguing) about what is better. The bottom line is all pro cameras (as well as pro DSLR's) will do the job adequately. It's just that we love to show favour to one manufacturer and camera type!! (same with cars too!!!) Lets face it, bad cameras just wouldn't stay in the market place!!

My HMC80's were upgrades (I still have the 70's actually) so my likes/dislikes are very much pointed towards what the new camera has and hasn't got. Take a look at my posts in the Panasonic AVVCAM forum here to check out likes and dislikes. Then again if you want something a little bigger than a DSLR the HMC40 actually has the same chipset as the 80 but unfortunately no XLR audio and for me (as Philip has said) that's a big disadvantage!!

Chris

Wayne Faulkner · February 16th, 2011, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes Soetandi

Just to avoid any confusion, the 12 minutes limit does not mean a memory card can only record 12 minute and then you have to swap to another one.. 12 minutes limit is a continuous recording limit (on Canon), so you can stop/record again anytime within or after the 12 minutes. A 16GB card would take about 45 minutes in total...

Thanks for the heads up, seems the restriction on recording time is either because the camera is in danger of overheating, or more likely that the manufacturer doesn't want you buying this equipment at the expense of the range of dedicated video cameras that they market alongside it.

Either way, the issue of clock watching, in order to put all the cameras back into record mode, would still create a lot of operator movement between fixed cameras.

I don't suppose anyone has considered the possibility of hacking the firmware to remove the 12 minute restriction? Probably too small a client group.

Spiros Zaharakis · February 16th, 2011, 10:57 AM

Actualy the 12min rec limit is there thanks to the 4GB limit on the FAT32 file system (and if I remember well the MOV container does not allow automatic creation of a new file after you reach the 4GB limit or something like this).

There is the Magic Lantern firmware/hack for the 550D/T2i that resumes recording automaticaly with 1 sec gap but that's about it.

Wayne Faulkner · February 16th, 2011, 09:09 PM

I am so glad I use a Mac!

Seems odd that the firmware doesn't support automatic file creation, even my relatively inexpensive M-Audio Microtrack 2 saves audio beyond the 2GB .WAV file size limit by automatically creating a new file without a break in recording.

Mark Von Lanken · February 16th, 2011, 10:56 PM

The 12 minute record limit is not due to the 4gb file size but it was Canon's choice in order to save on taxes and duty fees. The HMC150 has a 4gb file size limit as well, but when it reaches the 4gb file, it makes another file seamlessly.

I am so glad I am not on a Mac because with Edius I edit files from the DSLR natively, without transcoding...just saying ;-)

Spiros Zaharakis · February 17th, 2011, 01:42 AM

Mark, if this was the case then they would have make it record 29.59 minutes as this is the limit for the tax fees. From what I've read it is the 4GB limit plus the .MOV container that does not allow auto file creation or something like that (don't quote me on that)

The Pannasonic GH2 and the new Sonys that record on AVCHD can create a new file and the GH2 in the European version only records up to 29.59min (the Sonys do that anyway)

Does the HMC150 also record in .MOV just like the Canons or is it AVCHD which allows for auto file creation? Just saying.

BTW I can't see how using or not using a Mac is relevant to the 12min record (that's for Wayne)

Brian Drysdale · February 17th, 2011, 08:58 AM

I believe the 29.59 minutes may be standard def rather than HD.

Dave Blackhurst · February 17th, 2011, 12:39 PM

With Sony "still cameras" that also record AVCHD, they have a limit of just under 30 minutes as cited. HOWEVER, the SLT/SLR's have heating issues, particularly with the Steady Shot on, reducing that time, sometimes significantly.

One has to take a little time to research the recording time limits with whatever "still" camera one buys. They have varying limitations, for whatever the reason. I think ultimately it's because these are STILL cameras, with a secondary video recording capability, and the manufacturers don't want to use up all the memory for a secondary feature!?

Nigel Barker · February 17th, 2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

I believe the 29.59 minutes may be standard def rather than HD.

No. A camera liable to 4.9% EU camcorder duty if it is capable of recording video clips of more than 30 minutes duration at a resolution at or exceeding 800x600 pixels at 23 frames per second or more. Recording SD video can be of any duration without having any bearing on customs duty.

Brian Drysdale · February 17th, 2011, 04:19 PM

The "at 23 frames per second or more" would be the catch for standard definition..

Don Parrish · February 17th, 2011, 05:51 PM

I have a couple of questions if you folks do not mind.

Is there a re-cycle time once you reach the 12 minute limit to start shooting video again ?

Some speak of heat problems, was this a camera issue or a memory issue?

Would Amanda have any problems shooting video and then instantly switching to a still shot ?

My biggest fear in the 12 minute limit would be Murphy's law, I can just picture myself having to go from one portion of the event straight to another and having to stop. But then again the whole wedding thing gives me the willy's, not my cup of tea.

February 16th, 2011, 10:56 PM	#39
Mark Von Lanken Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 910	The 12 minute record limit is not due to the 4gb file size but it was Canon's choice in order to save on taxes and duty fees. The HMC150 has a 4gb file size limit as well, but when it reaches the 4gb file, it makes another file seamlessly. I am so glad I am not on a Mac because with Edius I edit files from the DSLR natively, without transcoding...just saying ;-) __________________ Mark Von Lanken www.VonWeddingFilms.com

February 14th, 2011, 06:36 PM	#32
Amanda Duncan Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Mt. Vernon, Illinois Posts: 27	Chris, thank you. I get tickled by everyone here. This is certainly not rocket science and some take it as seriously as so. I haven't made my mind up yet one way or the other. I liked the hmc80 to begin with. Then the 150. Those are the vid cams I'm looking at the most. The dslr is just really exciting and interesting. I'm not sure yet. But keep me posted on your likes and dislikes with the 80.

February 14th, 2011, 07:14 PM	#33
Wayne Faulkner Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Shrewsbury England Posts: 69	Amanda didn't initially mention she was going to be using 12 minute dslr for a wedding, and I haven't been here long so forgive me for not knowing her background, but I've been waiting for her to reveal in a later post what she would be using it for. I've read her later post on this thread and have the impression it must be for covering weddings. Out of all the responses I've been waiting for someone with experience of covering live sport with a dslr, other than the commercialised games in the US with advertising breaks every 7.5 minutes. I can't see any use for dslr as a primary camera for recording rugby for instance, with two 40 minute halves, but I'm willing to consider reasoned argument from someone with more experience. Writing as someone who would rather look at the practicalities of recording any live event, changing or swapping out memory cards every 12 minutes would appear to generate a lot of unnecessary rushing about and clock watching on a multi camera event, with the increased possibility of missing an important moment either because you're concentrating on your equipment rather than what is in front of you, or because you're not recording during such changes. Even as an amateur I swap batteries and miniDV at half time, even though I have 85 minute HDV tapes, because you only get the one chance of recording a live event.

February 14th, 2011, 08:46 PM	#35
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Amanda You have to remember that most of us are guys and we tend to love the technology and talking (and arguing) about what is better. The bottom line is all pro cameras (as well as pro DSLR's) will do the job adequately. It's just that we love to show favour to one manufacturer and camera type!! (same with cars too!!!) Lets face it, bad cameras just wouldn't stay in the market place!! My HMC80's were upgrades (I still have the 70's actually) so my likes/dislikes are very much pointed towards what the new camera has and hasn't got. Take a look at my posts in the Panasonic AVVCAM forum here to check out likes and dislikes. Then again if you want something a little bigger than a DSLR the HMC40 actually has the same chipset as the 80 but unfortunately no XLR audio and for me (as Philip has said) that's a big disadvantage!! Chris

February 16th, 2011, 10:57 AM	#37
Spiros Zaharakis Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 171	Actualy the 12min rec limit is there thanks to the 4GB limit on the FAT32 file system (and if I remember well the MOV container does not allow automatic creation of a new file after you reach the 4GB limit or something like this). There is the Magic Lantern firmware/hack for the 550D/T2i that resumes recording automaticaly with 1 sec gap but that's about it.

February 16th, 2011, 09:09 PM	#38
Wayne Faulkner Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Shrewsbury England Posts: 69	I am so glad I use a Mac! Seems odd that the firmware doesn't support automatic file creation, even my relatively inexpensive M-Audio Microtrack 2 saves audio beyond the 2GB .WAV file size limit by automatically creating a new file without a break in recording.

February 17th, 2011, 01:42 AM	#40
Spiros Zaharakis Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 171	Mark, if this was the case then they would have make it record 29.59 minutes as this is the limit for the tax fees. From what I've read it is the 4GB limit plus the .MOV container that does not allow auto file creation or something like that (don't quote me on that) The Pannasonic GH2 and the new Sonys that record on AVCHD can create a new file and the GH2 in the European version only records up to 29.59min (the Sonys do that anyway) Does the HMC150 also record in .MOV just like the Canons or is it AVCHD which allows for auto file creation? Just saying. BTW I can't see how using or not using a Mac is relevant to the 12min record (that's for Wayne)

February 17th, 2011, 08:58 AM	#41
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	I believe the 29.59 minutes may be standard def rather than HD.

February 17th, 2011, 12:39 PM	#42
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	With Sony "still cameras" that also record AVCHD, they have a limit of just under 30 minutes as cited. HOWEVER, the SLT/SLR's have heating issues, particularly with the Steady Shot on, reducing that time, sometimes significantly. One has to take a little time to research the recording time limits with whatever "still" camera one buys. They have varying limitations, for whatever the reason. I think ultimately it's because these are STILL cameras, with a secondary video recording capability, and the manufacturers don't want to use up all the memory for a secondary feature!?

February 17th, 2011, 04:19 PM	#44
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	The "at 23 frames per second or more" would be the catch for standard definition..

February 17th, 2011, 05:51 PM	#45
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	I have a couple of questions if you folks do not mind. Is there a re-cycle time once you reach the 12 minute limit to start shooting video again ? Some speak of heat problems, was this a camera issue or a memory issue? Would Amanda have any problems shooting video and then instantly switching to a still shot ? My biggest fear in the 12 minute limit would be Murphy's law, I can just picture myself having to go from one portion of the event straight to another and having to stop. But then again the whole wedding thing gives me the willy's, not my cup of tea.