Clients Very Disappointed...

Jim Snow · November 24th, 2010, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Bloom

keep in mind many ask simply because they are told to in the bridal magazines they read.

That is so true. Sometimes you can actually tell they are reading the 'questions' verbatim from the article they read.

John Knight · November 24th, 2010, 01:00 PM

I met with a couple about 2 years ago. The bride was lovely. The groom was 100% ass__le! Argumentative, sour-faced, rude, bad tempered advertising agency exec. Trouble written all over him. I showed them a few demos then hurried them out the door.

2 days later I got an email from her wanting to book me.

I replied:

"Hi Anna, Good to meet you both as well. You've chosen beautiful locations, a great time of the year, and are planning well in advance so you are settings yourselves up nicely for an awesome day. In creating the videos that you viewed here on Monday, one of the most important ingredients is fantastic rapport, and knowing everyone will be comfortable working together in a high pressure situation. I didn't feel on the same wavelength at all with Jeff and was out of my comfort zone with what he was asking me to provide. Being both creative types we probably butted heads a little. Unfortunately I feel that no matter what is eventually decided, this point would remain a source of unnecessary tension for both of us which would jeopardise your total enjoyment on the day, and my passion to give 100% in the filming and editing process. I would recommend going to see 2 other videographers who have an excellent standard of work and may be less concerned with providing master tapes and other requests for Jeff.

Sorry about this outcome but I feel you both deserve absolute agreement with photographer, videographer, celebrant etc in every aspect of your requirements and expectations to make your wedding day as special as it can, and will be."

They ended up wasting several hours booking and negiotiating terms with the "competition", and the wedding was eventually cancelled 10 days from the wedding day as the couple split up. He is currently dragging the "competition" through the court system for the return of $200 deposit.

I think your career is defined strongly on the clients you have the wisdom to NOT take on.

Jim Snow · November 24th, 2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Knight

the couple split up. He is currently dragging the "competition" through the court system for the return of $200 deposit.

Although she may not realize it yet, she is very fortunate. Her life would have been hell with someone like that.

Dimitris Mantalias · November 24th, 2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Knight

I think your career is defined strongly on the clients you have the wisdom to NOT take on.

This is one of the wisest things ever written in this great forum.

Andrew Waite · November 24th, 2010, 10:14 PM

Amen John... Amen.

Raji Ahmed · December 29th, 2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

No matter what else happens, stand firm on this one.

I know after reading a lot of these posts, that most people do. I had asked for a very basic deal. I just wanted to guy to shoot all day, about a 10 hour day, with breaks in between for meals and downtime. And all I really wanted was the raw footage because I wanted to see all that was captured that i couldn't be a part of since the entire wedding day is so full of things happening.

Mine was an Indian wedding. We as brides and even grooms want to relive each and every moment. And 10 hours of work didn't mean 10 hours of shooting. All in all, there were about 3 hours of shooting and the videographer was nice enough to give me 3 DVDs, one for the wedding, one for guests/greetings/randomg stuff and the third for the reception. He added a nice menu to each DVD, but I was happy with that. But again, that was the first time I hired a videographer for such an event, so I didn't expect the moon, but I expected lasting memories to be captured. As many as possible. :-)

And after seeing what my videographer did as a basic package, I decided to do this myself.

Buba Kastorski · December 29th, 2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raji Ahmed

And after seeing what my videographer did as a basic package, I decided to do this myself.

OK, nothing wrong with that,
and how is it going?

Philip Howells · December 30th, 2010, 08:31 PM

Nothing wrong Buba - except that a CCTV tape isn't a video programme.

If a fundamentally unedited record of the the event is what Raji's clients want - that's their pick, and no-one would gainsay him for fulfilling a market need.

However, it would be wrong to confuse that end product with a professional video programme.

Chris Harding · December 30th, 2010, 10:48 PM

Hi Philip

Hope you have a great 2011 BTW!!!

It seems that a lot of ethnic weddings require a CCTV style program. I'm still fighting with my Muslim bride who booked a "Western Wedding Package" and still complained bitterly that I missed parts of the reception (if I was sitting down, she was on my back). I shot onto 5 SDHC cards for her (usually only use two) but it seems if you miss just 5 minutes of the dancing, the wedding is ruined !!! Despite getting double what she asked for..I have not been paid (I did a similar one last year and wasn't paid the final amount for that either)

I would say the only way to do these is with about 3 cam operators working in shifts and providing a real-time record of the day. No editing, no creativity!!!!

Not my cuppa tea at all so in 2011, I will be refusing (very politely!!!) all ethnic events and leave them to those who are prepared to shoot 12 hours non-stop!!

I don't think most videographers realise how different the expectations are from ethnic couples and despite living in a Western Country they still need to preserve their traditions. If you do take on an ethnic shoot, however Westernised the couple may seem, be prepared to shoot everything and all night!!

Chris

Philip Howells · December 31st, 2010, 12:53 AM

Chris, and of course the same good wishes to you - except that even as I write in my dressing gown whilst the kettle boils for my first cup of tea for the day, you'll be getting ready to celebrate another tick on the slate of time. Actually, like many who've lived in different time zones, I find New Year quite a depressing time - it's so artificial, a passing moment in the revolution of our globe. Unlike other festivals, which merely start at the moment, NY is the moment. Anyway, as our pals on the West Coast still haven't worn off last night's hangover and my son in HKG is roughly halfway between you and me, I wish everybody great success, happiness and peace in 2011.

But to the subject. At the only ethnic wedding with which I've had a problem, it wasn't the Indian bride or her English husband but the bride's parents. Both were doctors, very personable people who'd lived in the UK for a long time. It was they whom we'd upset - and "we" means the us, production company, and her daughter who'd been very clear from the outset that she wanted a "Western" wedding video. It was the daughter who'd decided (in writing) when we were to finish - and thus miss the Indian dancing; it was the daughter who'd decided she didn't want hours of the "meet and greet" cocktail session - which was the part the parents wanted to extend to "show the family in India how big the wedding was".

To her credit, the daughter stood her ground over her decisions and the situation ended satisfactorily and we were able to agree a modest additional fee for the third edit - the parents had difficulty in understanding that approvals are definite.

In contrast last summer we recorded a delightful Nigerian/English wedding which was a simple delight.

Perhaps as important for us as creatives, the traditional dress at both weddings added a riot of colour and visual excitement not even the most extrovert of European weddings achieve.

Finally, I wonder if the net of our forum, (sorry Chris's forum), falls wide enough to catch the views and experiences of local video programme makers working abroad who are commissioned to produce "Western" weddings on their home turf. From what I've learned here it might be interesting.

Ken Darling · December 31st, 2010, 02:52 AM

Asking for the raw footage... When we booked a photographer for our wedding, it was made clear that would would be entitled to x-number of photos, NOT every single one she took. We were allowed to look at them all, but they were bound in a folder that could not be un-bound, so pictures couldn't be slyly copied.

I think it has to be made clear that raw footage is NOT part of the deal. And if they want to 'review' the footage, make sure they are only given a very low resolution copy with moving copyright overlays, so that it's not worth their while trying to bootleg it.

Our wedding was videoed by friends on consumer Video 8 camcorders. Hours of blandness! How much better all that footage was when I edited it down to under an hour. Less really is more... if only customers understood that!

Chris Harding · December 31st, 2010, 03:14 AM

Hi Ken

Most of my clients do realise that and appreciate the fact that they have a wedding video around 100 mins that is watchable. I cannot imagine sitting thru 10 hours of video!!!! However as one poster here has already said, cultures like Israeli expect you to film the entire wedding (and he has two cranes to do the job!!) I cannot bring myself to do what Philip calls CCTV footage..it means a production crew which costs money and it must be a really mundane job.

Philip?? I have done some really delightful couples with different backgrounds (I did an Aussie guy with a Malawian bride and they were a joy to work with!!!!) I think the CCTV style of coverage only seems to apply to mainly middle eastern countries !! Even Indian weddings here are very Western as they have the ceremony back in India and it lasts 3 days!!! We do the Reception only!!

The only thing that really upset me about my last Middle Eastern one was she was totally un-truthful about the format and events and booked a standard package to get a better price. If I had known the actual format she would have paid at least 4 times what she did!!! She held off with a running sheet until the actual day when it was handed to me.

We all live and learn and as already said it's critical to be able to say NO!! Better to sit and watch telly that evening than spend hours on something you are not being paid your worth for!!

Chris

Michael Simons · December 31st, 2010, 09:52 AM

Why not just have in your contract that you work a 10 hour day and the video will be approximately 1-2 hours long and it will cost X amount of dollars?

Chris Harding · December 31st, 2010, 06:43 PM

Hi Michael

All that IS specified in the contract but what do you do in real life situations when the bride demands that you film everything. Do you try to explain that 6 hours of raw footage doesn't fit on a DVD??? Do you refuse to film any extra as you already have more footage than you need for one DVD??? Do you simply pack up your gear and leave the reception when the bride starts demanding????

It's all fair enough when she reads the contract in the comfort of her home but in the heat of event a stressed bride is another story completely. As this now has occurred on with one particular ethnic group 3 times (with the same result) the simplest and easiest solution is still to say NO at the initial enquiry

Chris

Scott Hayes · January 2nd, 2011, 07:22 AM

I have a couple right now (arabic) both of them wonderful people. she is a true sweetheart. but he wanted to come and edit with me, I said no. I delivered a tight finished product. they want a bunch of creative changes. Told them there would be charges, and we could get to it after the new year. Multicultural events, I quote them much higher and really don't care to take them on anymore.

November 24th, 2010, 10:14 PM	#35
Andrew Waite Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bakersfield, CA Posts: 307	Amen John... Amen. __________________ http://www.higherdefinitionmedia.com RED One #6135 "Spartacus"

November 24th, 2010, 01:00 PM	#32
John Knight Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 588	I met with a couple about 2 years ago. The bride was lovely. The groom was 100% ass__le! Argumentative, sour-faced, rude, bad tempered advertising agency exec. Trouble written all over him. I showed them a few demos then hurried them out the door. 2 days later I got an email from her wanting to book me. I replied: "Hi Anna, Good to meet you both as well. You've chosen beautiful locations, a great time of the year, and are planning well in advance so you are settings yourselves up nicely for an awesome day. In creating the videos that you viewed here on Monday, one of the most important ingredients is fantastic rapport, and knowing everyone will be comfortable working together in a high pressure situation. I didn't feel on the same wavelength at all with Jeff and was out of my comfort zone with what he was asking me to provide. Being both creative types we probably butted heads a little. Unfortunately I feel that no matter what is eventually decided, this point would remain a source of unnecessary tension for both of us which would jeopardise your total enjoyment on the day, and my passion to give 100% in the filming and editing process. I would recommend going to see 2 other videographers who have an excellent standard of work and may be less concerned with providing master tapes and other requests for Jeff. Sorry about this outcome but I feel you both deserve absolute agreement with photographer, videographer, celebrant etc in every aspect of your requirements and expectations to make your wedding day as special as it can, and will be." They ended up wasting several hours booking and negiotiating terms with the "competition", and the wedding was eventually cancelled 10 days from the wedding day as the couple split up. He is currently dragging the "competition" through the court system for the return of $200 deposit. I think your career is defined strongly on the clients you have the wisdom to NOT take on.

December 30th, 2010, 08:31 PM	#38
Philip Howells Trustee Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,212	Nothing wrong Buba - except that a CCTV tape isn't a video programme. If a fundamentally unedited record of the the event is what Raji's clients want - that's their pick, and no-one would gainsay him for fulfilling a market need. However, it would be wrong to confuse that end product with a professional video programme.

December 30th, 2010, 10:48 PM	#39
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Philip Hope you have a great 2011 BTW!!! It seems that a lot of ethnic weddings require a CCTV style program. I'm still fighting with my Muslim bride who booked a "Western Wedding Package" and still complained bitterly that I missed parts of the reception (if I was sitting down, she was on my back). I shot onto 5 SDHC cards for her (usually only use two) but it seems if you miss just 5 minutes of the dancing, the wedding is ruined !!! Despite getting double what she asked for..I have not been paid (I did a similar one last year and wasn't paid the final amount for that either) I would say the only way to do these is with about 3 cam operators working in shifts and providing a real-time record of the day. No editing, no creativity!!!! Not my cuppa tea at all so in 2011, I will be refusing (very politely!!!) all ethnic events and leave them to those who are prepared to shoot 12 hours non-stop!! I don't think most videographers realise how different the expectations are from ethnic couples and despite living in a Western Country they still need to preserve their traditions. If you do take on an ethnic shoot, however Westernised the couple may seem, be prepared to shoot everything and all night!! Chris

December 31st, 2010, 12:53 AM	#40
Philip Howells Trustee Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,212	Chris, and of course the same good wishes to you - except that even as I write in my dressing gown whilst the kettle boils for my first cup of tea for the day, you'll be getting ready to celebrate another tick on the slate of time. Actually, like many who've lived in different time zones, I find New Year quite a depressing time - it's so artificial, a passing moment in the revolution of our globe. Unlike other festivals, which merely start at the moment, NY is the moment. Anyway, as our pals on the West Coast still haven't worn off last night's hangover and my son in HKG is roughly halfway between you and me, I wish everybody great success, happiness and peace in 2011. But to the subject. At the only ethnic wedding with which I've had a problem, it wasn't the Indian bride or her English husband but the bride's parents. Both were doctors, very personable people who'd lived in the UK for a long time. It was they whom we'd upset - and "we" means the us, production company, and her daughter who'd been very clear from the outset that she wanted a "Western" wedding video. It was the daughter who'd decided (in writing) when we were to finish - and thus miss the Indian dancing; it was the daughter who'd decided she didn't want hours of the "meet and greet" cocktail session - which was the part the parents wanted to extend to "show the family in India how big the wedding was". To her credit, the daughter stood her ground over her decisions and the situation ended satisfactorily and we were able to agree a modest additional fee for the third edit - the parents had difficulty in understanding that approvals are definite. In contrast last summer we recorded a delightful Nigerian/English wedding which was a simple delight. Perhaps as important for us as creatives, the traditional dress at both weddings added a riot of colour and visual excitement not even the most extrovert of European weddings achieve. Finally, I wonder if the net of our forum, (sorry Chris's forum), falls wide enough to catch the views and experiences of local video programme makers working abroad who are commissioned to produce "Western" weddings on their home turf. From what I've learned here it might be interesting.

December 31st, 2010, 02:52 AM	#41
Ken Darling New Boot Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: London, England Posts: 15	Asking for the raw footage... When we booked a photographer for our wedding, it was made clear that would would be entitled to x-number of photos, NOT every single one she took. We were allowed to look at them all, but they were bound in a folder that could not be un-bound, so pictures couldn't be slyly copied. I think it has to be made clear that raw footage is NOT part of the deal. And if they want to 'review' the footage, make sure they are only given a very low resolution copy with moving copyright overlays, so that it's not worth their while trying to bootleg it. Our wedding was videoed by friends on consumer Video 8 camcorders. Hours of blandness! How much better all that footage was when I edited it down to under an hour. Less really is more... if only customers understood that!

December 31st, 2010, 03:14 AM	#42
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Ken Most of my clients do realise that and appreciate the fact that they have a wedding video around 100 mins that is watchable. I cannot imagine sitting thru 10 hours of video!!!! However as one poster here has already said, cultures like Israeli expect you to film the entire wedding (and he has two cranes to do the job!!) I cannot bring myself to do what Philip calls CCTV footage..it means a production crew which costs money and it must be a really mundane job. Philip?? I have done some really delightful couples with different backgrounds (I did an Aussie guy with a Malawian bride and they were a joy to work with!!!!) I think the CCTV style of coverage only seems to apply to mainly middle eastern countries !! Even Indian weddings here are very Western as they have the ceremony back in India and it lasts 3 days!!! We do the Reception only!! The only thing that really upset me about my last Middle Eastern one was she was totally un-truthful about the format and events and booked a standard package to get a better price. If I had known the actual format she would have paid at least 4 times what she did!!! She held off with a running sheet until the actual day when it was handed to me. We all live and learn and as already said it's critical to be able to say NO!! Better to sit and watch telly that evening than spend hours on something you are not being paid your worth for!! Chris

December 31st, 2010, 09:52 AM	#43
Michael Simons Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Red Bank, NJ Posts: 553	Why not just have in your contract that you work a 10 hour day and the video will be approximately 1-2 hours long and it will cost X amount of dollars?

December 31st, 2010, 06:43 PM	#44
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Michael All that IS specified in the contract but what do you do in real life situations when the bride demands that you film everything. Do you try to explain that 6 hours of raw footage doesn't fit on a DVD??? Do you refuse to film any extra as you already have more footage than you need for one DVD??? Do you simply pack up your gear and leave the reception when the bride starts demanding???? It's all fair enough when she reads the contract in the comfort of her home but in the heat of event a stressed bride is another story completely. As this now has occurred on with one particular ethnic group 3 times (with the same result) the simplest and easiest solution is still to say NO at the initial enquiry Chris

January 2nd, 2011, 07:22 AM	#45
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	I have a couple right now (arabic) both of them wonderful people. she is a true sweetheart. but he wanted to come and edit with me, I said no. I delivered a tight finished product. they want a bunch of creative changes. Told them there would be charges, and we could get to it after the new year. Multicultural events, I quote them much higher and really don't care to take them on anymore.