How do you set pricing?

Ben Lynn · August 3rd, 2005, 09:51 PM

David,

Your comparing apples and oranges.

10 years ago beta was a very expensive format to get into. In addition, the operator had to be a professional to properly utilize the camera. It was high end then and even today a beta cam will still get a better picture in some ways than a dv camera will. Operators are still making between $750 and $1200 a day right now for production only, but the format now is HD.

Today, video entry costs are very low and equipment is self explanitory. Thus, the lower cost of productions. The income is not as high, but neither is the investment.

Compare VHS camera rates from 10 years ago with DV camera rates from today and see what you get.

Ben Lynn

Peter Jefferson · August 3rd, 2005, 10:18 PM

"Today, video entry costs are very low and equipment is self explanitory. Thus, the lower cost of productions. The income is not as high, but neither is the investment.'

see this is where the problem lay..

"video costs are very low and equipment is explanatory"
Yes, youre right 100%, no doubt about it, you hit it on the head.. BUT you mention "lower cost of productions"

Why is it lower? Is it lower because i bough my camera at a cheaper price than it was 5 years ago?? But, by doing that does WHAT I DO WITH IT mean that MY time, effort and skill are of a lower value?? the amount of time i spend editing... is that less in value coz my computer is now cheaper... ?

"The income is not as high but neither is teh investment.. "
OK, well, consider a 2 cam company runnign 2 edit stations.. lighting, tripods,wireless mics blah blah...
Now consider a photographers rig.. 1 camera, 4 lenses, memory cards a PC and photoshop... maybe a range of albums, outsource work to a developer.. and thats it.. this whole setup would cost me 1 friggin video camera..

But not only are their cameras cheaper, but they dont have buy a load of software.. they dont have the post production work, but they charge double what we do.. .
So what you say.. to me anyway, carries no logic and carries no weight..
Nothing personal, but those comments only verify that yes, prices are cheaper NOW for the aqcquisition and edit, however, can you value someones skill and experience WITH those acquisition tools??

i can get a toolkit for a hundred bux or a toolkit for a grand and tune up my car..
whether or not i do a good job remains to be seen..

Ben Lynn · August 3rd, 2005, 11:13 PM

Everyone take a deep breath.......Now exhale.

It's just the way it is at this point in time. Photogs make more and video makes less.

Peter, which is easier for a new person to operate, a full size beta, or a mini dv handycam from your local electronics store? The beta requires training by a professional who's used it before, but the camcorder can be picked up and worked with by anyone.

And yes, people starting out don't make as much as others. YOUR time is worth a lot, but a new persons time is more of an investment than a money maker. I'm not going to pay a new shooter a high rate just to keep the industry looking good, I'm going to pay what their worth. And new people are worth less than those who've been in the business longer. That's how it is in any profession and it makes sense.

No one wants a seasoned pro to take a pay cut, but give the new people an oppourtunity to make their mark in the industry.

Ben Lynn

David Chandler-Gick · August 3rd, 2005, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Lynn

The beta requires training by a professional who's used it before, but the camcorder can be picked up and worked with by anyone.

Okay, this is twice now you've pushed this idea. The first time I had a response all set to go and I decided not to add fuel to the fire.

But a second time? This I cannot let pass.

BullKRAPPE!

You show me the Rule of Thirds button on that camcorder.

Show me the Headroom button.

Show me the Storytelling button or the Rack Focus for Effect button.

Show me the Smooth Pan button.

Show me the Proper Exposure button.

No?

Maybe they're hidden away in a menu somewhere. Check the Users Manual and get back to me, okay?

why why why?

Why is it so difficult to see how devaluing the industry is NOT A GOOD THING?

I honestly do not understand the process behind that kind of thinking.

People are ignorant. They don't know what goes into a professionally produced video. They do not understand the costs, the time, the talent. They see "wedding video" and think one's as good as the next.

When the bar is so low, it hurts EVERYone...

James Landsburger · August 4th, 2005, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Chandler-Gick

Why is it so difficult to see how devaluing the industry is NOT A GOOD THING?

I honestly do not understand the process behind that kind of thinking.

People are ignorant. They don't know what goes into a professionally produced video. They do not understand the costs, the time, the talent. They see "wedding video" and think one's as good as the next.

I feel the pain of most of these quotes, but just understand for your own health, there is NOTHING you can do about the situation. All you can do is create the best product possible, and market yourself and your work.

And David - you make some good points, but also some bad ones, which (mainly because of your attitude and style) make you look bad...

You say "I don't agree. What the next guy is doing is irrelevant." This is an abusrd statement in ANY business, and certainly this one. You need to keep in mind many of your points, but also look at the field and then make an informed decision.

Peter Jefferson · August 4th, 2005, 01:33 AM

"I feel the pain of most of these quotes, but just understand for your own health, there is NOTHING you can do about the situation. "

wanna bet??

look at my model of taking on trainees.. by the time im finsihed with them, their running their own business's with the appropriate skills and experience required to be successful..
In training, not only are they learning how to shoot, but how to edit.. how to manage, how to deal with a client, how to deliver to a client, how to sell to a client and most importantly, how to chat up the hot lil bridesmaid....
;)

So in effect, once theyre established, they come back to me for system support, edit suport etc etc and i make afew freinds who i can rely on.. on top of that, by the time they branch out, they have enough experience to charge whats relevant so as to NOT devalue to the product..

now i understand that being cheap helps a newbie.. but why cant a newbie do what my newbies do and work for someone for about 6 months, make some cash, learn some techniques, get a folio and THEN go out and do it for themselves.. and NOT have to undercut anyone else...

At least theyre not offering crap on the outset.. coz they HAVE the skill... They have the experience.. like some customers say... any Schmo can film a wedding.. but just coz they can does it mean they should???

Devin Eskew · August 4th, 2005, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Chandler-Gick

Why is it so difficult to see how devaluing the industry is NOT A GOOD THING?

I honestly do not understand the process behind that kind of thinking.

People are ignorant. They don't know what goes into a professionally produced video. They do not understand the costs, the time, the talent. They see "wedding video" and think one's as good as the next.

When the bar is so low, it hurts EVERYone...

While you have very valid points, how you've presented them and passed "your" opinions off as "what must be done" is where I take issue. No one wants a de-valued industry; however we must allow that each person values things differently (Viva Le USA). That being said, people also have very different approaches and measure successes in different ways. You must allow that while making your house payment is your measurement, buying that new camera or building your skill set may be enough for others. Why is this the case?
I use the term Cottage Industry, as it sums up where we are at with this. I know we have WEVA yet ask your clients honestly, how many even know what that is. What unites us other than this board? Yes we all shoot, but the different skill levels and knowledge bases and standards that we use keep us from really educating the public at large. Where is our unity? How do we change public opinion of what we do? Why are we different from real production work? Why is it when I go to Videographer get togethers, when it is revealed I do weddings I get that Ooooh so sorry look? It’s because we are not united, no real entity that backs what we do, and it’s also because we spend too much time arguing amongst ourselves. There is allot of energy on this topic, where is our energy to really enact change. Being passionate is fine, yet are we putting this passion into the right battles?

Jeremy Rochefort · August 4th, 2005, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devin Eskew

It’s because we are not united, no real entity that backs what we do, and it’s also because we spend too much time arguing amongst ourselves. There is allot of energy on this topic, where is our energy to really enact change. Being passionate is fine, yet are we putting this passion into the right battles?

Now this point I will agree with. The sad part is that nowhere in the world in there a 'regulating body'!. Yes, WEVA does exist, but how many users out there really tout that is being an 'industry controlling body'. Don't get me wrong, I do not devalue or knock WEVA, without them, I'm sure the world of wedding videography would be much worse off than it is.

Its just sad that its centered mainly in the USA. Our local organisations in SA (and I'm sure elsewhere in the world) are more of a "lets see what this guy is doing" scenario than sharing information. And like Devin has said, you get the skew eye when people know you do weddings. I do the dang lot, anything that brings money to the table - thats what I am prepared to do to keep my business afloat.

I've been to two of the 'local videography' meetings and must honestly say its a waste of time. It was started by someone very passionate but without help, he's gotten no further than the second lamp post down the street. Its one reason why HE says, "is it all worth it". I cannot speak for WEVA as i am unlikely to be at their meeting being about a few thousand miles away.

Cheers

Peter Jefferson · August 4th, 2005, 02:10 AM

"Where is our unity? "
This si what ive been saying.. everyone is slitting each others throats to make a buck that there IS NO UNITY...

How do we change public opinion of what we do?
((Ive answered this one.. education.. very simple.. many focus on the sale and not the actual job at hand.. before i give them a $$ figure, i makes sure they understand the work, and the contracts..

the more producers try to keep secrets from the public, the more concern the wedding clients have. The less we educate the client, the more questions are raised.
Be open and theryes no problem, but keep a secret, and theyll want to throttle you. Hell, go to my website and youll see how much info i give poeple.. this is what they NEED.. theres only about 6 lines of actual sales pitch lines across the whole site, but the info i provide is like 20thousand words... the site is not for sales, its for information. The information then sells the product without me having to use dodgy sales tactics...

they may not want to know what i do and how i do it, but if theyre oblivious to it, thats their problem. I tell them why i charge what i do.
At least my clients can breathe easy knowing about what i do and how i do it.. and the fact that its publicly available, theres no excuses for complacency.

change the sales techniques, educate the clients as to the true depth of what we do, and youll notice the attitude to video will change..
When people are tyrekicking, I ask these potential clients, how much tv do you watch.. how many movies do you enjoy? do you like to just sit back and chill out of a night with a nice glass of a wine and a movie? Think about it.. What we offer as porfessionals is a product which is a part of the BIGGEST industry in the friggin world. what is it really worth when almost every human on this planet watches TV... ))

Why are we different from real production work?
((Were not.. but it depends on your definition of "REAL"... to me, someone who gives me a dollar to film something is "real". To work out how to use a new piece of software is "real" production work.
The difference however has been stated in another post..
Cost.. yes initial outlay may not be as expensive as a broadcast studio, but were all capturing tape, were all cutting, were all delivering.. irrespective of the material, were all doing the same thing.. it might be on a differnt level to other people.. but in the end, were all creating something which is enjoyable to watch... ))

Why is it when I go to Videographer get togethers, when it is revealed I do weddings I get that Ooooh so sorry look?
((Coz weddings can sometimes suck when you have to deal with Bridezilla.. Also corporate work pays about 4 times as much for much less work.. on average id make 3 times what i make on a wedding.. irrespective of the duration. ))

It’s because we are not united, no real entity that backs what we do, and it’s also because we spend too much time arguing amongst ourselves.
((I wouldnt call it arguing.. in the market place, if u argue u look like a dick.. but to the client many business like to badmouth other business' as opposed to trying to sell their wares... ))

There is allot of energy on this topic, where is our energy to really enact change. Being passionate is fine, yet are we putting this passion into the right battles?"

((I agree... but it also needs to be put out in the open...))

As for Johns, comments, i agree 100% with everything he has written

David Chandler-Gick · August 4th, 2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Landsburger

(mainly because of your attitude and style)

Yeah I keep forgetting no one wants the elephant in the room pointed out to them.

David Chandler-Gick · August 4th, 2005, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devin Eskew

...how you've presented them and passed "your" opinions off as "what must be done" is where I take issue...

Why?

Because the alternative has been such a resounding success?

Listen, I call 'em like I see 'em. Sometimes the most difficult truth is the truth in the mirror. I argued the same arguments... Just ask Jenny Lehman. I learned. I realized.

So if that makes me zealous, so be it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devin Eskew

...I use the term Cottage Industry, as it sums up where we are at with this. I know we have WEVA yet ask your clients honestly, how many even know what that is...

Exactly! This is what I mean when I said this industry was built bass-ackwards. It wasn't a cottage industry. It was a professional industry. It's actually de-evolved over the years.

And the excuses of competing on price is both cause and effect.

WEVA, for all that it is, is a victim of it's own success. But, IMO, they have never really promoted professional wedding videography to the customer like a national (international?) association could do.

Kevin Shaw · August 4th, 2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

see this is where my point is missunderstood .. to a certain extent...... Its not JUST about competing with a newbie.... as a whole, its about CREATING a market and manipulating it in a way to increase its true value for what its really worth..

The question is, are you more concerned about how much people charge for wedding videos, or about the quality they're offering and how that reflects on the industry as a whole? Either way, my point is that there's probably nothing any of us can do to stop the current trends in wedding videography services and pricing, so you may as well learn to accept that. If you think customers need to be advised that there is a difference between an inexpensive video and an expensive one, go ahead and tell them that. If you think fledgling videographers need to be educated on how to make better videos and price their services accordingly, then invite them to join your local videographers association. But no matter how many videographers get trained to do things right and charge a fair fee, there are going be more new ones coming in behind them because it's increasingly easy to get started in this business. That's a fact of life we can't change now, so don't waste your energy trying.

The good news here is that if there are more videographers offering wedding videos at a wider range of prices, that means more people will be able to afford a wedding video and there will be more of us available to meet the demand. The one legitimate concern here is not to have the industry tarnished by a flood of poorly done videos, but how exactly would you propose to minimize that risk?

James Landsburger · August 4th, 2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Chandler-Gick

Yeah I keep forgetting no one wants the elephant in the room pointed out to them.

So smug...

Most of what you point out is obvious, but you think you're revolutionary (if you want the truth). Like I said, can't do much about it, but maybe you've found a way.

And interesting that you did address the point about your bad information...

David Chandler-Gick · August 5th, 2005, 09:17 AM

not smug... saddened.

I don't see other industries so content with mediocrity.

Bad information?

The only bad information is that which promotes the status quo... That keeps this industry in the mud.

And don't pretend that you have me "figured out"... If what I say is so obvious, then why is there even any discussion?

Oh yeah... Must be repeat season on TV. Not enuff drama.

Get it or don't...

I'm done with this topic.

Kevin Shaw · August 5th, 2005, 10:11 AM

David: you seem to be convinced that there could be some course of action which would help keep videography a more tightly organized profession with higher average prices, but that defies any logical assessment of the situation. What's happening is totally normal for an industry which starts out with high investment costs and then gradually becomes easier and more affordable for people to enter into. The best thing any of us can do is keep helping each other learn how to be more professional, and try to reach out to the newcomers who are just starting their learning process. Grumbling about inevitable trends won't change anything.

August 5th, 2005, 09:17 AM	#44
David Chandler-Gick Echoes from the Backyard Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fort Wayne, IN Posts: 35	not smug... saddened. I don't see other industries so content with mediocrity. Bad information? The only bad information is that which promotes the status quo... That keeps this industry in the mud. And don't pretend that you have me "figured out"... If what I say is so obvious, then why is there even any discussion? Oh yeah... Must be repeat season on TV. Not enuff drama. Get it or don't... I'm done with this topic. __________________ -DJ www.DavidChandlerGick.com

August 3rd, 2005, 09:51 PM	#31
Ben Lynn Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 636	David, Your comparing apples and oranges. 10 years ago beta was a very expensive format to get into. In addition, the operator had to be a professional to properly utilize the camera. It was high end then and even today a beta cam will still get a better picture in some ways than a dv camera will. Operators are still making between $750 and $1200 a day right now for production only, but the format now is HD. Today, video entry costs are very low and equipment is self explanitory. Thus, the lower cost of productions. The income is not as high, but neither is the investment. Compare VHS camera rates from 10 years ago with DV camera rates from today and see what you get. Ben Lynn

August 3rd, 2005, 10:18 PM	#32
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"Today, video entry costs are very low and equipment is self explanitory. Thus, the lower cost of productions. The income is not as high, but neither is the investment.' see this is where the problem lay.. "video costs are very low and equipment is explanatory" Yes, youre right 100%, no doubt about it, you hit it on the head.. BUT you mention "lower cost of productions" Why is it lower? Is it lower because i bough my camera at a cheaper price than it was 5 years ago?? But, by doing that does WHAT I DO WITH IT mean that MY time, effort and skill are of a lower value?? the amount of time i spend editing... is that less in value coz my computer is now cheaper... ? "The income is not as high but neither is teh investment.. " OK, well, consider a 2 cam company runnign 2 edit stations.. lighting, tripods,wireless mics blah blah... Now consider a photographers rig.. 1 camera, 4 lenses, memory cards a PC and photoshop... maybe a range of albums, outsource work to a developer.. and thats it.. this whole setup would cost me 1 friggin video camera.. But not only are their cameras cheaper, but they dont have buy a load of software.. they dont have the post production work, but they charge double what we do.. . So what you say.. to me anyway, carries no logic and carries no weight.. Nothing personal, but those comments only verify that yes, prices are cheaper NOW for the aqcquisition and edit, however, can you value someones skill and experience WITH those acquisition tools?? i can get a toolkit for a hundred bux or a toolkit for a grand and tune up my car.. whether or not i do a good job remains to be seen..

August 3rd, 2005, 11:13 PM	#33
Ben Lynn Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 636	Everyone take a deep breath.......Now exhale. It's just the way it is at this point in time. Photogs make more and video makes less. Peter, which is easier for a new person to operate, a full size beta, or a mini dv handycam from your local electronics store? The beta requires training by a professional who's used it before, but the camcorder can be picked up and worked with by anyone. And yes, people starting out don't make as much as others. YOUR time is worth a lot, but a new persons time is more of an investment than a money maker. I'm not going to pay a new shooter a high rate just to keep the industry looking good, I'm going to pay what their worth. And new people are worth less than those who've been in the business longer. That's how it is in any profession and it makes sense. No one wants a seasoned pro to take a pay cut, but give the new people an oppourtunity to make their mark in the industry. Ben Lynn

August 4th, 2005, 01:33 AM	#36
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"I feel the pain of most of these quotes, but just understand for your own health, there is NOTHING you can do about the situation. " wanna bet?? look at my model of taking on trainees.. by the time im finsihed with them, their running their own business's with the appropriate skills and experience required to be successful.. In training, not only are they learning how to shoot, but how to edit.. how to manage, how to deal with a client, how to deliver to a client, how to sell to a client and most importantly, how to chat up the hot lil bridesmaid.... ;) So in effect, once theyre established, they come back to me for system support, edit suport etc etc and i make afew freinds who i can rely on.. on top of that, by the time they branch out, they have enough experience to charge whats relevant so as to NOT devalue to the product.. now i understand that being cheap helps a newbie.. but why cant a newbie do what my newbies do and work for someone for about 6 months, make some cash, learn some techniques, get a folio and THEN go out and do it for themselves.. and NOT have to undercut anyone else... At least theyre not offering crap on the outset.. coz they HAVE the skill... They have the experience.. like some customers say... any Schmo can film a wedding.. but just coz they can does it mean they should???

August 4th, 2005, 02:10 AM	#39
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"Where is our unity? " This si what ive been saying.. everyone is slitting each others throats to make a buck that there IS NO UNITY... How do we change public opinion of what we do? ((Ive answered this one.. education.. very simple.. many focus on the sale and not the actual job at hand.. before i give them a $$ figure, i makes sure they understand the work, and the contracts.. the more producers try to keep secrets from the public, the more concern the wedding clients have. The less we educate the client, the more questions are raised. Be open and theryes no problem, but keep a secret, and theyll want to throttle you. Hell, go to my website and youll see how much info i give poeple.. this is what they NEED.. theres only about 6 lines of actual sales pitch lines across the whole site, but the info i provide is like 20thousand words... the site is not for sales, its for information. The information then sells the product without me having to use dodgy sales tactics... they may not want to know what i do and how i do it, but if theyre oblivious to it, thats their problem. I tell them why i charge what i do. At least my clients can breathe easy knowing about what i do and how i do it.. and the fact that its publicly available, theres no excuses for complacency. change the sales techniques, educate the clients as to the true depth of what we do, and youll notice the attitude to video will change.. When people are tyrekicking, I ask these potential clients, how much tv do you watch.. how many movies do you enjoy? do you like to just sit back and chill out of a night with a nice glass of a wine and a movie? Think about it.. What we offer as porfessionals is a product which is a part of the BIGGEST industry in the friggin world. what is it really worth when almost every human on this planet watches TV... )) Why are we different from real production work? ((Were not.. but it depends on your definition of "REAL"... to me, someone who gives me a dollar to film something is "real". To work out how to use a new piece of software is "real" production work. The difference however has been stated in another post.. Cost.. yes initial outlay may not be as expensive as a broadcast studio, but were all capturing tape, were all cutting, were all delivering.. irrespective of the material, were all doing the same thing.. it might be on a differnt level to other people.. but in the end, were all creating something which is enjoyable to watch... )) Why is it when I go to Videographer get togethers, when it is revealed I do weddings I get that Ooooh so sorry look? ((Coz weddings can sometimes suck when you have to deal with Bridezilla.. Also corporate work pays about 4 times as much for much less work.. on average id make 3 times what i make on a wedding.. irrespective of the duration. )) It’s because we are not united, no real entity that backs what we do, and it’s also because we spend too much time arguing amongst ourselves. ((I wouldnt call it arguing.. in the market place, if u argue u look like a dick.. but to the client many business like to badmouth other business' as opposed to trying to sell their wares... )) There is allot of energy on this topic, where is our energy to really enact change. Being passionate is fine, yet are we putting this passion into the right battles?" ((I agree... but it also needs to be put out in the open...)) As for Johns, comments, i agree 100% with everything he has written

August 5th, 2005, 10:11 AM	#45
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	David: you seem to be convinced that there could be some course of action which would help keep videography a more tightly organized profession with higher average prices, but that defies any logical assessment of the situation. What's happening is totally normal for an industry which starts out with high investment costs and then gradually becomes easier and more affordable for people to enter into. The best thing any of us can do is keep helping each other learn how to be more professional, and try to reach out to the newcomers who are just starting their learning process. Grumbling about inevitable trends won't change anything.