Any trouble synching iRiver with wedding video? at DVinfo.net

Michael McGruder · July 18th, 2005, 12:04 PM

I'm considering getting one of the iRiver H10's -- and from what I've read from the numerous threads - the iRiver is not just reliable, but incredibly beneficial when getting audio from a groom or officiant.

Two questions actually.

Upon looking at the iRiver at (I think) newegg.com - I did not see a microphone input. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong iRiver model, but I thought I read where folks were using the H10 with a mic -- can anyone verify this?

Secondly, has anyone had any problems synching the audio into a NLE? I'm currently using Sony Vegas 6.0 and I wanted to mitigate any potential problems ahead of time.

Thanks in advance!
-Michael

Matt Jeppsen · July 18th, 2005, 01:24 PM

I do not believe that the H10 has a line input built in. As I understand it, you must purchase the cradle to do any line-in recording (and the cradle adds bulk and complexity). I have seen photos of the 320, and it looked like it had a line-in jack on the bottom.

If you are capable of audio synch using waveforms or just by listening, then synching iRiver sources is simple and straightforward.

Bear in mind that the iRiver does not record a drop-frame stream, so long sections of audio will gradually fall out of synch with a DV stream, two-frames at a time. The solution is to trim your iRiver source by a two frames every few minutes, or when you see it drift. I believe that Vegas also has ctrl+click+drag feature that allows you to snap your audio to fit the length of your video...might want to check with Glen on that one.

Technically, drop frame "drops" 2 frames from the DV stream for every minute of time code, except for every tenth minute. This is of course to allow for the completely off-the-wall NTSC 29.97 standard framerate.

Anyway, I have not found iRiver audio synch to be a problem in my editing.

Daniel Runyon · July 18th, 2005, 02:18 PM

I would suggest the 700 series of iRivers. By far the most people have had consistant success with those, myself included. The H10 also looks to be a bit bigger, the 700's are VERY easy to slip into a groom/officiants coat pocket or wherever, and not be weighty and bulky. People will have less problems with these than even a wireless transmitter being mounted on them. I have used mine many times now, for two weddings and several non-wedding video projects, and have had zero reliability issues, and synching is no real trouble at all. I have (several times now) synched up three iRiver feeds layered on top of each other, and within about 10 minutes have them just right...you just pick a nice spot with an obvious standout moment, and set them all to that, and as Matt said, check your sych for drift on long runs. And make sure to set your record gain low enough to not spike....40-45 is good. I generally use 40 and then normalize in post.

Steve House · July 18th, 2005, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Jeppsen

...
Bear in mind that the iRiver does not record a drop-frame stream, so long sections of audio will gradually fall out of synch with a DV stream, two-frames at a time.
...
Technically, drop frame "drops" 2 frames from the DV stream for every minute of time code, except for every tenth minute. This is of course to allow for the completely off-the-wall NTSC 29.97 standard framerate.

I have to correct you here. "Drop frame" does NOT actually DROP any video frames from the data stream. What it does is SKIP the first 2 numbers in the sequence once a minute. Those frames themselves are still there, just the numbers assigned to them are rejiggered. Most of the time as one second goes into the next the frames are numbered in sequence:
...27.28.29.1.2.3.4...
but once a minute the 1 and 2 are skipped and the frame that comes immediately after the 29th frame is instead numbered "3" so the sequence that time the sequence becomes:
...27.28.29.3.4.5.6...
The frames that would otherwise have been numbered 1 & 2 are still there, just with new numbers.

Michael McGruder · July 18th, 2005, 04:22 PM

Forgive me if this is just a stupid question, but Matt's reply made me think of something: am I limited by what frame rate the camera records at when using an iRiver for an audio source??

Daniel -- thanks for the suggestion - I'm on my way now to check out the 700 series!

Thanks again!
-Michael

Daniel Runyon · July 18th, 2005, 08:12 PM

Your welcome! Frame rate isnt the issue, its the bitrate. DV is 48,000 and the iRiver is 44.1. It's no biggie though. I've never had any problem at all keeping it synched.

Michael McGruder · July 18th, 2005, 09:49 PM

Even at 60i, 24p and 29.7??

Okay - I'm convinced... (running out to Circuit City tomorrow!!) :)

Thanks again Daniel!!

Jack Smith · July 18th, 2005, 10:25 PM

Some of the HD models do come with mic input(actually, they include a mic)
I use 700 series iRivers because of small physical size. With the mono adapter I made or one of the custom made for iRver mics you get lots of record time.(upto 15 hours with 1g at max quality)
I convert the iRiver file to 48k then import into the NLE project so that the audios all match.Never had a sync problem.For non wedding ceremony stuff I do use a clapper to sync all the audio and video

Daniel Runyon · July 19th, 2005, 12:16 AM

Yessir, go get it! Framerate matters not, it's all still "per second". And make dang sure you pick up some mono Giant Squid Audio Labs (google it) iRiver modified lav mics to get the best sounding recordings for your $. They are cheap and seriously awesome.

Jack, what do you use to convert them to 48,000? I've never thought of that...it's always easy to overlook the obvious! I suppose I'll dig around in SoundForge....surely it will do it.

Steve House · July 19th, 2005, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Runyon

...
Jack, what do you use to convert them to 48,000? I've never thought of that...it's always easy to overlook the obvious! I suppose I'll dig around in SoundForge....surely it will do it.

When you import the 44.1 audio file or first thing after importing it, tell the software to resample it to 48k. Usually when you import you usually have a choice of preserving the original sampling frequency or resampling to the project rate. Resampling up doesn't lower the quality. Resampling down will.

Glen Elliott · July 19th, 2005, 07:03 AM

The iRiver audio will drift over time. If your just matching the iRiver up with video you might not notice it but if you sync it along with camera aquired audio you'll find that, over time, the iRiver will start to drift. Nothing an easy nip and tuck can't fix though. Audio is much easier to sync than video. If your listening to two tracks and you hear an echo...it's not synced. Should sound, seamlessly, like one source. If your synced and your iriver and camera audio sound like a perfect harmonious single source but over time notice an echo developing...you know what happened.

Steve House · July 19th, 2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen Elliott

The iRiver audio will drift over time. If your just matching the iRiver up with video you might not notice it but if you sync it along with camera aquired audio you'll find that, over time, the iRiver will start to drift. Nothing an easy nip and tuck can't fix though. Audio is much easier to sync than video. If your listening to two tracks and you hear an echo...it's not synced. Should sound, seamlessly, like one source. If your synced and your iriver and camera audio sound like a perfect harmonious single source but over time notice an echo developing...you know what happened.

If you resample to 48kHz you'll find less drift. The project clock is running on samples at a rate of 48k per second and that's the rate the video expects in its matching audio. Without resampling, the 44k samples in what was one second of audio are played back at the project's sample rate and so when played at a rate of 48 samples per second, what was originally 1 second of audio will play back in 44/48 of a second. If resampled, the 44 samples are turned into 48 and what was recorded in 1 second will now play back in 1 second.

Ian Slessor · July 19th, 2005, 12:29 PM

The title says it all. For you videographers who are using the iRiver recorders have you abandoned wireless lavs?

It certainly appears that cost-wise it's considerably cheaper than using good-quality lavs and besides, if a lav goes down, who's going to jump up in front of the guests and put another one on the groom in the middle of the ceremony? It appears iRivers are a suitable substitute. Would that be accurate?

Thanks,

ian

Jeremy Rochefort · July 19th, 2005, 02:30 PM

Gents

Would appreciate some help here since the range of models on BH seems endless - I would really appreciate a pointer in the right direction as to which model you guys refer to:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...s=t&shs=iriver

Daniel, I would assume you are referring the iRiver mike on the following page at Giant Squid:
http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com...ono1.htm#info1

We in SA don't have luxury of you guys in the states :)

Many thanks

Michael McGruder · July 19th, 2005, 03:50 PM

Jeremy,

Thanks a lot of the link for the Omnidirectional Mono microphone. I have read and re-read the first line of that link:

"The Iriver recorder requires a mono microphone to have a certain type of mono plug in order to record in the mono mode. If the Iriver detects a stereo plug it will automatically switch to stereo mode."

Why would a mono mike would be preferred over a stereo mike?

Thanks a bunch for everyone who has commented in this thread - I've learned a lot!

-Michael

July 18th, 2005, 12:04 PM	#1
Michael McGruder Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grand Junction, CO Posts: 61	Any trouble synching iRiver with wedding video? I'm considering getting one of the iRiver H10's -- and from what I've read from the numerous threads - the iRiver is not just reliable, but incredibly beneficial when getting audio from a groom or officiant. Two questions actually. Upon looking at the iRiver at (I think) newegg.com - I did not see a microphone input. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong iRiver model, but I thought I read where folks were using the H10 with a mic -- can anyone verify this? Secondly, has anyone had any problems synching the audio into a NLE? I'm currently using Sony Vegas 6.0 and I wanted to mitigate any potential problems ahead of time. Thanks in advance! -Michael

July 19th, 2005, 12:29 PM	#13
Ian Slessor Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South-Central Ontario, Canada Posts: 216	So are wireless lavs a thing of the past? The title says it all. For you videographers who are using the iRiver recorders have you abandoned wireless lavs? It certainly appears that cost-wise it's considerably cheaper than using good-quality lavs and besides, if a lav goes down, who's going to jump up in front of the guests and put another one on the groom in the middle of the ceremony? It appears iRivers are a suitable substitute. Would that be accurate? Thanks, ian

July 19th, 2005, 02:30 PM	#14
Jeremy Rochefort Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cape Town, SA Posts: 159	Daniel & Glen - iRiver Gents Would appreciate some help here since the range of models on BH seems endless - I would really appreciate a pointer in the right direction as to which model you guys refer to: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...s=t&shs=iriver Daniel, I would assume you are referring the iRiver mike on the following page at Giant Squid: http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com...ono1.htm#info1 We in SA don't have luxury of you guys in the states :) Many thanks __________________ MJ Productions Never let the need for money outweigh the need for Quality, Friendly and Professional Service

July 18th, 2005, 01:24 PM	#2
Matt Jeppsen Trustee Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Fayetteville, AR Posts: 1,425	I do not believe that the H10 has a line input built in. As I understand it, you must purchase the cradle to do any line-in recording (and the cradle adds bulk and complexity). I have seen photos of the 320, and it looked like it had a line-in jack on the bottom. If you are capable of audio synch using waveforms or just by listening, then synching iRiver sources is simple and straightforward. Bear in mind that the iRiver does not record a drop-frame stream, so long sections of audio will gradually fall out of synch with a DV stream, two-frames at a time. The solution is to trim your iRiver source by a two frames every few minutes, or when you see it drift. I believe that Vegas also has ctrl+click+drag feature that allows you to snap your audio to fit the length of your video...might want to check with Glen on that one. Technically, drop frame "drops" 2 frames from the DV stream for every minute of time code, except for every tenth minute. This is of course to allow for the completely off-the-wall NTSC 29.97 standard framerate. Anyway, I have not found iRiver audio synch to be a problem in my editing.

July 18th, 2005, 02:18 PM	#3
Daniel Runyon Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 168	I would suggest the 700 series of iRivers. By far the most people have had consistant success with those, myself included. The H10 also looks to be a bit bigger, the 700's are VERY easy to slip into a groom/officiants coat pocket or wherever, and not be weighty and bulky. People will have less problems with these than even a wireless transmitter being mounted on them. I have used mine many times now, for two weddings and several non-wedding video projects, and have had zero reliability issues, and synching is no real trouble at all. I have (several times now) synched up three iRiver feeds layered on top of each other, and within about 10 minutes have them just right...you just pick a nice spot with an obvious standout moment, and set them all to that, and as Matt said, check your sych for drift on long runs. And make sure to set your record gain low enough to not spike....40-45 is good. I generally use 40 and then normalize in post.

July 18th, 2005, 04:22 PM	#5
Michael McGruder Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grand Junction, CO Posts: 61	Forgive me if this is just a stupid question, but Matt's reply made me think of something: am I limited by what frame rate the camera records at when using an iRiver for an audio source?? Daniel -- thanks for the suggestion - I'm on my way now to check out the 700 series! Thanks again! -Michael

July 18th, 2005, 08:12 PM	#6
Daniel Runyon Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 168	Your welcome! Frame rate isnt the issue, its the bitrate. DV is 48,000 and the iRiver is 44.1. It's no biggie though. I've never had any problem at all keeping it synched.

July 18th, 2005, 09:49 PM	#7
Michael McGruder Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grand Junction, CO Posts: 61	Even at 60i, 24p and 29.7?? Okay - I'm convinced... (running out to Circuit City tomorrow!!) :) Thanks again Daniel!!

July 18th, 2005, 10:25 PM	#8
Jack Smith Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: ontario Posts: 445	Some of the HD models do come with mic input(actually, they include a mic) I use 700 series iRivers because of small physical size. With the mono adapter I made or one of the custom made for iRver mics you get lots of record time.(upto 15 hours with 1g at max quality) I convert the iRiver file to 48k then import into the NLE project so that the audios all match.Never had a sync problem.For non wedding ceremony stuff I do use a clapper to sync all the audio and video

July 19th, 2005, 12:16 AM	#9
Daniel Runyon Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 168	Yessir, go get it! Framerate matters not, it's all still "per second". And make dang sure you pick up some mono Giant Squid Audio Labs (google it) iRiver modified lav mics to get the best sounding recordings for your $. They are cheap and seriously awesome. Jack, what do you use to convert them to 48,000? I've never thought of that...it's always easy to overlook the obvious! I suppose I'll dig around in SoundForge....surely it will do it.

July 19th, 2005, 07:03 AM	#11
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	The iRiver audio will drift over time. If your just matching the iRiver up with video you might not notice it but if you sync it along with camera aquired audio you'll find that, over time, the iRiver will start to drift. Nothing an easy nip and tuck can't fix though. Audio is much easier to sync than video. If your listening to two tracks and you hear an echo...it's not synced. Should sound, seamlessly, like one source. If your synced and your iriver and camera audio sound like a perfect harmonious single source but over time notice an echo developing...you know what happened.

July 19th, 2005, 03:50 PM	#15
Michael McGruder Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grand Junction, CO Posts: 61	Jeremy, Thanks a lot of the link for the Omnidirectional Mono microphone. I have read and re-read the first line of that link: "The Iriver recorder requires a mono microphone to have a certain type of mono plug in order to record in the mono mode. If the Iriver detects a stereo plug it will automatically switch to stereo mode." Why would a mono mike would be preferred over a stereo mike? Thanks a bunch for everyone who has commented in this thread - I've learned a lot! -Michael