Wedding couple wants "no release" of footage...

Silas Barker · March 16th, 2010, 04:44 PM

Let me just thank you all for your input and say this:

1) We never use anything that would make the couple look bad, foolish, or dumb.
2) We only use stuff for a promotional type thing.
3) While I would not mind this at all, this wedding is hundreds of miles away in a nice place and THE ONLY REASON I even agreed to go that far in the first place was because of all the great shots I would get in this beautiful location.

So hundreds of miles away, smallest package, and not able to use the footage AT ALL, not even a nice still image = not worth it me unless they want to pay a tad more.

And yes I have stopped offering the smallest package.

I only shoot so many weddings a year and it means alot to be able to use the footage.

Silas Barker · March 16th, 2010, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

We do tend to end up on opposite sides of a discussion sometimes. At least we disagree respectfully. d;-)

I am going to take advice from the "Inner Circle" people because they know their stuff. Look at Travis's website. Great work. He has had great advice on this forum. Thanks Travis!

Shaun Roemich · March 16th, 2010, 04:51 PM

For creative professionals, we sure have a way of forgetting to be creative when it comes to sorting through "problems" like this...

Take production stills of your crew in the environment, shoot extra footage of the sights WITHOUT the B&G in them and throw the content into your promo with a description that says something like "we even travel to exotic locations to capture your special day, like we did in Bali for Ed & Susan (no last names)"...

You were there, you can prove it, you have pictures and no one is injured.

Silas Barker · March 16th, 2010, 05:05 PM

And then when the B&G find pictures and ask why we posted images or a few seconds of footage from THEIR wedding, whether they are in or not we get sued. Very creative. Their wedding planner says"XXXX and XXXX are very private people"

No images
No video
No 2-3 second clips
no prep
smallest package
250 miles away
barely any of the norms
no way without good pay

Oh yeah, let me mention they lost their DJ too.
There's something weird with this one I think.

Travis Cossel · March 16th, 2010, 05:21 PM

Rainer, no disrespect to you or how you do business, but 'not using footage' does cost us something. It costs us the ability to impress other potential clients with our work on that project. One of the biggest problems in our industry is that people seem to think something is a 'cost' only if it actually costs them money (like buying equipment or software).

The truth of the matter is that you have many 'costs' in your business that have nothing to do with spending money. The more successful businesses generally do a better job of tracking ALL their costs, not just expenditures.

Philip Howells · March 16th, 2010, 05:22 PM

As this thread begins to wind its way to a conclusion is it worth reminding people that by posting anything on You Tube you automatically give them (Google) the copyright in perpetuity.

Shaun Roemich · March 16th, 2010, 05:24 PM

Of course I am no lawyer but photos of MY crew in an exotic location doing THEIR jobs in an environment close to but not AT the ceremony would HARDLY involve any breach of contract IN MY UNLEARNED OPINION. If they have an issue with THAT, back away NOW. Can you imagine what is in store for you during post production???

I have signed MANY NDA's (non disclosure agreements) in my professional career. This specific case is bizarre.

This is one of MANY reasons I leave weddings up to you folks... Corporate and broadcast can be hard enough...

Travis Cossel · March 16th, 2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas Barker

I am going to take advice from the "Inner Circle" people because they know their stuff. Look at Travis's website. Great work. He has had great advice on this forum. Thanks Travis!

Thanks, Silas ... but make sure you're always choosing your own path too. Don't just listen to me because I have lots of posts, lol. d;-) Always happy to help, though.

Silas Barker · March 16th, 2010, 05:29 PM

Shaun: This is deff one wedding I wont regret being at whatever they pay since I have another wedding the next day at a really nice location early in the morning. And yeah, I think they might have some "special issues."

Travis: Thanks for the words of wisdom, love your site and advice.

Dimitris Mantalias · March 16th, 2010, 05:44 PM

There is this team in Greece that does event photography for VERY high-end people. Nobody knows them, there is no sight of photo in their website. Still, they book high-end weddings. This is good for them. They have extremely good marketing and management and they dont need the Internet.

Now, they want us to work with them for some weddings. We know we don't have a chance of showing anything online if we take the jobs. Also we have fixed prices in our packages, we won't charge extra if somebody is richer than the others (I know that this is something that doesn't need to be said, but there are people that act otherwise, unfortunately), it all depends on what the client wants.

So, since I can book a wedding with the freedom of using the material and one other without that freedom, and all that for the same money, then what's the reason of choosing the second one?

It's not a matter of respect to the client. You respect your client when you talk about it from the start. Now, if you put out a video that makes them look stupid or something, then you may not have any legal issues (since they agreed), but that definitely will make the videographer look even more stupid and incompetent. But this is not what I am talking about. I think that when you treat the video with respect, nobody will say a bad thing.

And now a bizarre incident that reverses all the above. We recently did a wedding and the groom was a police officer but not a usual one. We had a serious suspicion that he was one of those undercover guys that infiltrate anarchist groups and do the inside jobs! He didn't tell that to us exactly but we noticed certain things that -almost- proved those thoughts. Issue is that the bride wanted us to upload photos and videos on the Net, but we told her "we'll see, we don't upload all of our works" (and it's true) but the thing is that we also thought "if we upload that stuff and some certain people see that, someone is going to have a real problem"! So, we didn't. True story.

Silas Barker · March 16th, 2010, 05:52 PM

This is the first time this has happened to me, and as far as I dont know this couple are not super high end or cops or anything. In fact I have their profession info and its just normal stuff.

I would take the job except its super far away. And kind of weird with no prep, no cake, no dance. And I will still take it if they want to pay $250 extra.

Shaun Roemich · March 16th, 2010, 05:54 PM

In ALL SINCERITY... Silas, may you get what you need from this and have no headaches or "hangover" from it.

My OPINION (which coupled with a bus ticket will get me on the Skytrain here in Vancouver...) is that anything used to promote your business SHOULD be given the blessing from the client IF IT IDENTIFIES THEM in any way, much as one would ask for a letter of reference.

I ask my corporate clients if I may post their commercial or a snippet of interviews contained within a teaching/promo video. I also ask if they would be willing to provide me with a text testimonial I can use in marketing materials. My FEELING is that it is better to have enthusiastic supporters of your work singing your praises than disappointed and disgruntled clients complaining about your ethics.

I know first hand how frustrating it can be - most of my BEST work has been completed under NDA's or flat out belongs to someone else (another producer whom I have freelanced for) or belongs to a broadcaster for whom I used to work. I have held off getting a demo reel together for a really long time because of this. Just now am I content that I have enough material to "throw together" to showcase at least SOME of what I am capable of.

Eugene Brown · March 16th, 2010, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas Barker

Quite honestly I am thinking about not taking the job.
I would like to either use a few still images or 2-5 second video clips of their wedding but they dont want it. In 5 years, this has never happened before to me.
The wedding is in a really nice place 250 miles away, and I only take on a certain number of weddings so I can trying to decide whether to take it or not.

Also, their is no first dance, no cake, and just the ceremony and toasts basically.

Any ideas?

Oh yeah, they want my smallest package too.

If this couple is giving you this kinda of trouble now...is it really the type of client you want to do business with? Will it be worth it?

Silas Barker · March 16th, 2010, 06:06 PM

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA!
IS it worth it???

Not unless they pay the extra money, I thought we clarified that in this thread earlier on.
I have not heard back so I doubt they will have a videographer, but if they choose to pay the extra $250 then great.

And Shaun, I agree, just I am not interested in driving that far unless it promotes my business as well with their blessing OR they pay a tad more for my trouble.

Eugene Brown · March 16th, 2010, 06:40 PM

Ha! My bad Silas! Kinda skimmed over this thread!

March 16th, 2010, 04:51 PM	#33
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	For creative professionals, we sure have a way of forgetting to be creative when it comes to sorting through "problems" like this... Take production stills of your crew in the environment, shoot extra footage of the sights WITHOUT the B&G in them and throw the content into your promo with a description that says something like "we even travel to exotic locations to capture your special day, like we did in Bali for Ed & Susan (no last names)"... You were there, you can prove it, you have pictures and no one is injured. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

March 16th, 2010, 05:21 PM	#35
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Rainer, no disrespect to you or how you do business, but 'not using footage' does cost us something. It costs us the ability to impress other potential clients with our work on that project. One of the biggest problems in our industry is that people seem to think something is a 'cost' only if it actually costs them money (like buying equipment or software). The truth of the matter is that you have many 'costs' in your business that have nothing to do with spending money. The more successful businesses generally do a better job of tracking ALL their costs, not just expenditures. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

March 16th, 2010, 05:24 PM	#37
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Of course I am no lawyer but photos of MY crew in an exotic location doing THEIR jobs in an environment close to but not AT the ceremony would HARDLY involve any breach of contract IN MY UNLEARNED OPINION. If they have an issue with THAT, back away NOW. Can you imagine what is in store for you during post production??? I have signed MANY NDA's (non disclosure agreements) in my professional career. This specific case is bizarre. This is one of MANY reasons I leave weddings up to you folks... Corporate and broadcast can be hard enough... __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

March 16th, 2010, 05:44 PM	#40
Dimitris Mantalias Major Player Join Date: May 2009 Location: Arta, Greece Posts: 342	There is this team in Greece that does event photography for VERY high-end people. Nobody knows them, there is no sight of photo in their website. Still, they book high-end weddings. This is good for them. They have extremely good marketing and management and they dont need the Internet. Now, they want us to work with them for some weddings. We know we don't have a chance of showing anything online if we take the jobs. Also we have fixed prices in our packages, we won't charge extra if somebody is richer than the others (I know that this is something that doesn't need to be said, but there are people that act otherwise, unfortunately), it all depends on what the client wants. So, since I can book a wedding with the freedom of using the material and one other without that freedom, and all that for the same money, then what's the reason of choosing the second one? It's not a matter of respect to the client. You respect your client when you talk about it from the start. Now, if you put out a video that makes them look stupid or something, then you may not have any legal issues (since they agreed), but that definitely will make the videographer look even more stupid and incompetent. But this is not what I am talking about. I think that when you treat the video with respect, nobody will say a bad thing. And now a bizarre incident that reverses all the above. We recently did a wedding and the groom was a police officer but not a usual one. We had a serious suspicion that he was one of those undercover guys that infiltrate anarchist groups and do the inside jobs! He didn't tell that to us exactly but we noticed certain things that -almost- proved those thoughts. Issue is that the bride wanted us to upload photos and videos on the Net, but we told her "we'll see, we don't upload all of our works" (and it's true) but the thing is that we also thought "if we upload that stuff and some certain people see that, someone is going to have a real problem"! So, we didn't. True story. __________________ "A successful wedding videographer is the one that offers for viewing some excellent videos and some boring videos, and gets positive reviews for both".

March 16th, 2010, 05:54 PM	#42
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	In ALL SINCERITY... Silas, may you get what you need from this and have no headaches or "hangover" from it. My OPINION (which coupled with a bus ticket will get me on the Skytrain here in Vancouver...) is that anything used to promote your business SHOULD be given the blessing from the client IF IT IDENTIFIES THEM in any way, much as one would ask for a letter of reference. I ask my corporate clients if I may post their commercial or a snippet of interviews contained within a teaching/promo video. I also ask if they would be willing to provide me with a text testimonial I can use in marketing materials. My FEELING is that it is better to have enthusiastic supporters of your work singing your praises than disappointed and disgruntled clients complaining about your ethics. I know first hand how frustrating it can be - most of my BEST work has been completed under NDA's or flat out belongs to someone else (another producer whom I have freelanced for) or belongs to a broadcaster for whom I used to work. I have held off getting a demo reel together for a really long time because of this. Just now am I content that I have enough material to "throw together" to showcase at least SOME of what I am capable of. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

March 16th, 2010, 04:44 PM	#31
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Let me just thank you all for your input and say this: 1) We never use anything that would make the couple look bad, foolish, or dumb. 2) We only use stuff for a promotional type thing. 3) While I would not mind this at all, this wedding is hundreds of miles away in a nice place and THE ONLY REASON I even agreed to go that far in the first place was because of all the great shots I would get in this beautiful location. So hundreds of miles away, smallest package, and not able to use the footage AT ALL, not even a nice still image = not worth it me unless they want to pay a tad more. And yes I have stopped offering the smallest package. I only shoot so many weddings a year and it means alot to be able to use the footage.

March 16th, 2010, 05:05 PM	#34
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	And then when the B&G find pictures and ask why we posted images or a few seconds of footage from THEIR wedding, whether they are in or not we get sued. Very creative. Their wedding planner says"XXXX and XXXX are very private people" No images No video No 2-3 second clips no prep smallest package 250 miles away barely any of the norms no way without good pay Oh yeah, let me mention they lost their DJ too. There's something weird with this one I think.

March 16th, 2010, 05:22 PM	#36
Philip Howells Trustee Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 1,212	As this thread begins to wind its way to a conclusion is it worth reminding people that by posting anything on You Tube you automatically give them (Google) the copyright in perpetuity.

March 16th, 2010, 05:29 PM	#39
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	Shaun: This is deff one wedding I wont regret being at whatever they pay since I have another wedding the next day at a really nice location early in the morning. And yeah, I think they might have some "special issues." Travis: Thanks for the words of wisdom, love your site and advice.

March 16th, 2010, 05:52 PM	#41
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	This is the first time this has happened to me, and as far as I dont know this couple are not super high end or cops or anything. In fact I have their profession info and its just normal stuff. I would take the job except its super far away. And kind of weird with no prep, no cake, no dance. And I will still take it if they want to pay $250 extra.

March 16th, 2010, 06:06 PM	#44
Silas Barker Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 577	HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA! IS it worth it??? Not unless they pay the extra money, I thought we clarified that in this thread earlier on. I have not heard back so I doubt they will have a videographer, but if they choose to pay the extra $250 then great. And Shaun, I agree, just I am not interested in driving that far unless it promotes my business as well with their blessing OR they pay a tad more for my trouble.

March 16th, 2010, 06:40 PM	#45
Eugene Brown Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Nashville, Tennessee Posts: 37	Ha! My bad Silas! Kinda skimmed over this thread! __________________ 2Duce2 Videography \| Blog \| Twitter