Delivering SD from HD at DVinfo.net

Janice DeMille · February 26th, 2010, 08:33 AM

We have just switched to HD cameras (Panasonic HMC150s) and have some questions on shooting and exporting. For weddings that will be delivered on DVD what format do you shoot in?

How do you export from Premiere Pro CS4 to retain the best quality.

Where the footage is HD can you zoom in and retain quality when outputting to SD?

thanks

Chris Harding · February 27th, 2010, 04:26 AM

Hi Janice

It all depends on whether you are going to edit in HD and then render down to SD or rather transcode to SD first. (Panny have a free transcoder..I left a link on the AVCHD forum)
It's probably better not to shoot in interlaced mode as HD and SD fields are reversed so progressive footage will downsize better to 720x480 without interlacing lines in the source footage!!
Unfortunately I use Sony Vegas and there are extensive threads on the Vegas forum about HD to SD but I prefer to transcode my AVCHD direct to SD first and then edit as the render times are a fraction of rendering HD to SD. It just suits my workflow. When I come back from a wedding shoot I actually create two folders for each camera card..one is AVCHD and the other is transcoded SD AVI so even before I start I have a choice which way to go!!

Chris

Kiflom Bahta · February 27th, 2010, 04:34 AM

How do you like the quality when you convert to SD dvd chris?

Scott Hayes · February 27th, 2010, 06:11 AM

the HMC150 delivers gorgeous SD product shot in 720p. I actually sat down and watched my work with a wedding planner and was amazed at how good it looked in SD. now keep in mind, i NEVER watch the discs I make. I send them out and done. From what clients have told me regarding the blu ray product, it looks like you are there with them. I still dont have a blu ray player

Chris Harding · February 27th, 2010, 06:28 AM

Hi Kiflom

I have done countless tests with AVCHD, HDV and SD all to a DVD in the usual MPEG2 format and on a 42" LCD TV you have to look pretty hard to see any differences!! Remember that you are comparing clips against each other !!!! Give the bride just one DVD and she wouldn't know the difference!! I'm 100% happy with my SD transcoded quality.

In fact shooting at the lowest bitrate there is no resolution change either but you will get a few artifacts and even vertical line skews. Edit AVCHD to SD and render 10 minutes of video in 30 mins or more or edit SD rendered to SD in under 5 minutes???? I need the faster workflow I can't have both computers tied up for hours and hours rendering footage!!

Chris

Janice DeMille · February 27th, 2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Hi Janice

It all depends on whether you are going to edit in HD and then render down to SD or rather transcode to SD first. (Panny have a free transcoder..I left a link on the AVCHD forum)
It's probably better not to shoot in interlaced mode as HD and SD fields are reversed so progressive footage will downsize better to 720x480 without interlacing lines in the source footage!!
Unfortunately I use Sony Vegas and there are extensive threads on the Vegas forum about HD to SD but I prefer to transcode my AVCHD direct to SD first and then edit as the render times are a fraction of rendering HD to SD. It just suits my workflow. When I come back from a wedding shoot I actually create two folders for each camera card..one is AVCHD and the other is transcoded SD AVI so even before I start I have a choice which way to go!!

Chris

Chris what format do you shoot in before you transcode down? I had originally thought I would shoot in 1080p, edit in HD and render to SD. I want to run the cameras fair static during the ceremony and zoom in during the edit making 2 cameras look like 4. I haven't tried to edit anything yet so not sure what my system can handle. I have a quad processor with Premiere CS4 and will be up grading to Windows 64 bit.

Chris Harding · February 27th, 2010, 06:32 PM

I actually shoot all my video interlaced!! 1080i but that is my preference. If you are going to transcode to AVI directly then you can shoot progressive or interlaced. However if you are intent on going the AVCHD to SD route then it's essential to shoot is progressive mode so you don't have any interlacing line issues during downsizing.

If you do use the Panasonic transcoder don't shoot in 720P as it doesn't handle that mode for some reason!! It's free so you might as well try it anyway???

Chris

Bill Engeler · February 28th, 2010, 04:08 AM

HD to SD is always a hot topic. I find that in CS4, editing HD, then using the active link (or whatever it's called)direct to an Encore timeline gives good results. I tried these methods in a test, and rank them from best image quality to worst:

1. HDV 25p (or Cineform 25p) Premiere output to a1920x1080 25p cineform file. Then I use Procoder 3 to make a MPEG-2, then import this to Encore. Looks great, but is time-consuming.

2. HDV timetine active linked to Encore, let Encore encode. Looks great, and is easy and fast. Using just Adobe tools, this is clearly the best way.

3. Export HDV using AME High Export Quality MPEG-2, then imported to Encore. Not as good, long render, more artifacts, but doable.

4. Same as 3, but not HQ. Softer, artifacts, barely usable.

I often pan-and-scan and zoom in to reframe or adjust tilt. I find it is invisible up to about 135% , but noticeable beyond this.

Kiflom Bahta · February 28th, 2010, 04:30 AM

I shoot hdv with my a1 and use AME to make mt2 files for encore and the result is great. i also use encore direct from premier and the results are the same. i am getting a new camera but don't what get yet. iam also getting a new pc with a lot of muscle to go with my new camera.

Chris Harding · February 28th, 2010, 05:19 AM

Hi Guys

Just bear in mind that Janice has an HMC150 so HDV footage doesn't really come into the mix. The camera shoots in AVCHD format so she would be more interested in using AVCHD in Adobe CS4 ..(I use Vegas 9 so I cannot help here, sorry!!)

I think what's needed is a CS4 workflow using AVCHD footage

A Quadcore is fine for AVCHD editing..I can even manage stuff on my DuoCore!!!

Chris

Janice DeMille · February 28th, 2010, 12:20 PM

That is right Chris.

Thanks everyone on the information. Maybe I should start a new thread asking if anyone is editing AVCHD in Premiere CS4 and start there.

Perrone Ford · February 28th, 2010, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding;1492384e

A Quadcore is fine for AVCHD editing..I can even manage stuff on my DuoCore!!!

You get full frame playback in Vegas on your dual-core? Really?

Chris Harding · February 28th, 2010, 06:52 PM

Hi Perrone

I said I can manage stuff on my DuoCore ... I didn't say it's awesome!!!! Unfortunately the preview battles somewhat!! especially over transitions. Straight video previews pretty well but as soon as it hits a speed bump it struggles... The point here was that yes, I can physically take an AVCHD clip ..drop it on the timeline and render it out to an MPEG2 SD video. DuoCore 2.2GHz with WinXP and 3GB ram.
The only stuff I have done in AVCHD is test clips really...all the weddings are transcoded to AVI first and, of course, the files run sweetly without any hiccups!!

Sorry if my post made it look like I was running AVCHD perfectly on a DuoCore, however you CAN do it if you are patient!!!

Chris

February 26th, 2010, 08:33 AM	#1
Janice DeMille Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nebo, NC Posts: 111	Delivering SD from HD We have just switched to HD cameras (Panasonic HMC150s) and have some questions on shooting and exporting. For weddings that will be delivered on DVD what format do you shoot in? How do you export from Premiere Pro CS4 to retain the best quality. Where the footage is HD can you zoom in and retain quality when outputting to SD? thanks

February 28th, 2010, 04:08 AM	#8
Bill Engeler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Brussels, Belgium Posts: 162	HD to SD is always a hot topic. I find that in CS4, editing HD, then using the active link (or whatever it's called)direct to an Encore timeline gives good results. I tried these methods in a test, and rank them from best image quality to worst: 1. HDV 25p (or Cineform 25p) Premiere output to a1920x1080 25p cineform file. Then I use Procoder 3 to make a MPEG-2, then import this to Encore. Looks great, but is time-consuming. 2. HDV timetine active linked to Encore, let Encore encode. Looks great, and is easy and fast. Using just Adobe tools, this is clearly the best way. 3. Export HDV using AME High Export Quality MPEG-2, then imported to Encore. Not as good, long render, more artifacts, but doable. 4. Same as 3, but not HQ. Softer, artifacts, barely usable. I often pan-and-scan and zoom in to reframe or adjust tilt. I find it is invisible up to about 135% , but noticeable beyond this. Last edited by Bill Engeler; February 28th, 2010 at 04:14 AM. Reason: edited to fix some spelling

February 27th, 2010, 04:26 AM	#2
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Janice It all depends on whether you are going to edit in HD and then render down to SD or rather transcode to SD first. (Panny have a free transcoder..I left a link on the AVCHD forum) It's probably better not to shoot in interlaced mode as HD and SD fields are reversed so progressive footage will downsize better to 720x480 without interlacing lines in the source footage!! Unfortunately I use Sony Vegas and there are extensive threads on the Vegas forum about HD to SD but I prefer to transcode my AVCHD direct to SD first and then edit as the render times are a fraction of rendering HD to SD. It just suits my workflow. When I come back from a wedding shoot I actually create two folders for each camera card..one is AVCHD and the other is transcoded SD AVI so even before I start I have a choice which way to go!! Chris

February 27th, 2010, 04:34 AM	#3
Kiflom Bahta Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 203	How do you like the quality when you convert to SD dvd chris?

February 27th, 2010, 06:11 AM	#4
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	the HMC150 delivers gorgeous SD product shot in 720p. I actually sat down and watched my work with a wedding planner and was amazed at how good it looked in SD. now keep in mind, i NEVER watch the discs I make. I send them out and done. From what clients have told me regarding the blu ray product, it looks like you are there with them. I still dont have a blu ray player

February 27th, 2010, 06:28 AM	#5
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Kiflom I have done countless tests with AVCHD, HDV and SD all to a DVD in the usual MPEG2 format and on a 42" LCD TV you have to look pretty hard to see any differences!! Remember that you are comparing clips against each other !!!! Give the bride just one DVD and she wouldn't know the difference!! I'm 100% happy with my SD transcoded quality. In fact shooting at the lowest bitrate there is no resolution change either but you will get a few artifacts and even vertical line skews. Edit AVCHD to SD and render 10 minutes of video in 30 mins or more or edit SD rendered to SD in under 5 minutes???? I need the faster workflow I can't have both computers tied up for hours and hours rendering footage!! Chris

February 27th, 2010, 06:32 PM	#7
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	I actually shoot all my video interlaced!! 1080i but that is my preference. If you are going to transcode to AVI directly then you can shoot progressive or interlaced. However if you are intent on going the AVCHD to SD route then it's essential to shoot is progressive mode so you don't have any interlacing line issues during downsizing. If you do use the Panasonic transcoder don't shoot in 720P as it doesn't handle that mode for some reason!! It's free so you might as well try it anyway??? Chris

February 28th, 2010, 04:30 AM	#9
Kiflom Bahta Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 203	I shoot hdv with my a1 and use AME to make mt2 files for encore and the result is great. i also use encore direct from premier and the results are the same. i am getting a new camera but don't what get yet. iam also getting a new pc with a lot of muscle to go with my new camera.

February 28th, 2010, 05:19 AM	#10
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Guys Just bear in mind that Janice has an HMC150 so HDV footage doesn't really come into the mix. The camera shoots in AVCHD format so she would be more interested in using AVCHD in Adobe CS4 ..(I use Vegas 9 so I cannot help here, sorry!!) I think what's needed is a CS4 workflow using AVCHD footage A Quadcore is fine for AVCHD editing..I can even manage stuff on my DuoCore!!! Chris

February 28th, 2010, 12:20 PM	#11
Janice DeMille Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nebo, NC Posts: 111	That is right Chris. Thanks everyone on the information. Maybe I should start a new thread asking if anyone is editing AVCHD in Premiere CS4 and start there.

February 28th, 2010, 06:52 PM	#13
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Hi Perrone I said I can manage stuff on my DuoCore ... I didn't say it's awesome!!!! Unfortunately the preview battles somewhat!! especially over transitions. Straight video previews pretty well but as soon as it hits a speed bump it struggles... The point here was that yes, I can physically take an AVCHD clip ..drop it on the timeline and render it out to an MPEG2 SD video. DuoCore 2.2GHz with WinXP and 3GB ram. The only stuff I have done in AVCHD is test clips really...all the weddings are transcoded to AVI first and, of course, the files run sweetly without any hiccups!! Sorry if my post made it look like I was running AVCHD perfectly on a DuoCore, however you CAN do it if you are patient!!! Chris