Shooting with the new Sony HDV camera..... at DVinfo.net

Brian Patterson · February 9th, 2005, 01:41 AM

Just curious about a couple of things.

1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........

2. Is it true that you can shoot in HDV and down-convert to SD for editing while still preserving the footage in HDV format?

3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD?

4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait?

I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events?

Looking forward to your thoughts! Thanks in advance!

Glen Elliott · February 9th, 2005, 07:50 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Brian Patterson : Just curious about a couple of things.

1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........
I believe you can but with the aid of some hardware. Check with the guys in the Mac forum for more info.

2. Is it true that you can shoot in HDV and down-convert to SD for editing while still preserving the footage in HDV format?
I know HD can be down-converted but I'm not quite sure what you mean by "still preserving the footage in HDV". Check out the HDV forum.

3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD?
Currently HDV footage cannot be stored on standard DVD discs nor can DVD players play them. If they are down-converted to SD mpeg-2 you can store the same amount as you would be able to with regular SD footage...with regard to the audio/video encoding bitrates.

4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait?
There are several formats battling it out right now for market supremecy. The two largest being HD-DVD and Blue-Ray. Time will tell which one (if only one) will prevail. Should you wait?..see below.

I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events?
This is my take on the onset of HD, and doesn't necessarily mean it's the way all wedding videographers are thinking. Personally I acknowledge HD as the future of video. I'm actually very excited about it. However, right now, as it is in the wedding videography genre you have to consider your clientel. How many households have high-definiintion televisions? That's not even putting a blue-ray or hd-dvd player into the mix. I feel it's going to be some time before this genre is going to switch...not because of the relucatance for shooters to make the technological move but for our clients to do so. I don't think there is enough benefit as a wedding videographer to make the switch now, or any time soon. As the consumers start to catch up bigger and better cameras than the FX-1, etc will become available. Maybe even an FX-"2" or "3".

Looking forward to your thoughts! Thanks in advance! -->>>

Peter Jefferson · February 9th, 2005, 08:04 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Brian Patterson : Just curious about a couple of things.

1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........

((What Glen Said.. BUT.. one thing i have found is that Final cut (despite the blasphemous comment im about to make LOL) is probably your best bet with HDV at this time.. ))

2. Is it true that you can shoot in HDV and down-convert to SD for editing while still preserving the footage in HDV format?

((yes.. u can shoot in HDV... through firewire the Sony cams will downcoonvert that the Standard DV 720x576 in Pal land or ur standrd 480 in NTSC. This WILL NOT preserve the image quality per se.. it will however offer a sharper image with a native 16:9 wider field of view. Its a good system but the FX1 has a 3 second lag comapred to relatime off the Z1 (yay!! my Z1s finally came!!!!!))

3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD?

((nothin really.. its still 25mbps... so its equivalent to Standard DV in size capacity vs recording time. youll have to downconvert to mpg2 for DVD if u wnat to deliver the goods.. OR.. convert the M2t to WMV9 HD 720p.. which wont play back properly unless its fed from a HDD, as CD's cannot carry this capacity.. i havent tried it with DVD yet.. ))

4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait?

((U have to wait. there nowhere near.. unless ur using XDCam.. which is what the media is.. BluRay and HD-DVD arent out yet.. and wont be for a while.. on top of that.. initial delivery will eb to the larger distributors and production houses. then the consumer once the format itslef is established.. in teh meantimeeeeeee ur either left with WMV9 720, or direct streaming using something like a DVico TVix.))

I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events?

((yes, but low light performance is nowhere near as refined as the PD or DVX cams.. so a light with a soft diffusor is essential. Maybe a sachler reporter 75. Not to say it looks shite, it doesnt.. in fact i think teh FX1 and Z1 poo all over the XL2.. the only thin i dont like is the fact that its not progressive.. which leads me to the new JVC HDV cam... more on that in Area 51 ;)

Oh and addign to what Glen has written.. i agree.. its a pretty basic line of thought and it might be backwards.. but consider this.. how long did it take to get DVD into the home, let alone surround sound home theatre.. now consider the proce of that.. now have a think about the price of a Plasma or LCD display with HD capabilities.. ok so now were left with bgig bux floating all ove rthe place.. to knuckle it down.. i am only working HDV to deliver broadcast multicam projects.. nothing more.. these cams do nothing to increase my Wedding sales.. people DONT UNDERSTAND what it means, let alone the difference it makes to thier presentation. on top of that, editin in HDV is alot mroe time consuming, and frankly, heyre not paying me enough to do that..
Now my breakdown of the matter is this..
until 80% of my clientelle have plasmas, or at least widescreen telelvisions.. THATS when I'll start to worry abotu delivery of HD to them.. When they can go to blockbuster and hire a movie in HD-DVD format.. THATS when i'll start considering it as a viable wedding product... as people will already know the format and recognise the requirements needed to experience it in full.. ))

Bob Harotunian · February 9th, 2005, 03:13 PM

"I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events?"

Yes, in about 2 or 3 years. Even though HD cams are being released, there are too many missing pieces right now. Also, consider the conversion cost since you'll need two HD cameras to be competitive and an HD editing deck just to start. On the business side, I just don't see brides willing to pay for the added cost of HDV for awhile. There's no question that HDV is the future but it's not yet ready for prime time in my opinion.
Bob

Craig Seeman · February 9th, 2005, 11:25 PM

<<1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........>>

I believe Lumiere HD (beta) will allow you to work in SD and then batch capture in HDV and render for final output but errrr it can't output back to the Sony cameras yet, only the JVC. Given iMovie and FCE support HDV expect it to be announced around NAB for FCP my guess.

I've heard there's a workflow to capture with iMovie5, which and capture HD, and then work in FCP.

<<3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD?>>

<<4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait?>>

Flip4Mac ($179) can create WMV HD files on the Mac straight from FCP, QuicktimePro, iMovie, Cleaner and soon Squeeze. While not Blue Ray or HD-DVD, they can be played from an extremely fast PC and output to an HD tv at much higher rez than SD.

<<I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events?>>

To recap, rephrase and add to what others have said.

For you, cost of camera, cost of deck, only WMV HD output or back to deck.
Your client needs HD TV set, must be able to play WMV HD or take file to very fast PC, buy the deck you buy or buy the camera for playback. Be willing to pay you more to cover your costs. And the Sony HDV cams are not as good gainup in low light as PD-170, VX2100. End of year or early next year maybe for Blu Ray and/or HD-DVD my guess. Maybe another year for sales to be meaningful/almost affordable. By end of 2006 or early 2007 next generation HDV cameras will be out my guess.

Greg Boston · February 10th, 2005, 12:43 AM

The option you DO have right now as a wedding videographer is to 'acquire' the image in HDV, then edit in HDV and only step down to mpeg2 for the purpose of burning the DVD. This will give your clients something they can play for now, and you can offer to re-master the project in the future for an additional fee once HD delivery is mainstream.

Although I haven't personally observed it yet, some folks say that having a higher quality image at the outset yields a superior quality DVD over SD source material.

Just a thought...

=gb=

Peter Jefferson · February 10th, 2005, 08:13 AM

Although I haven't personally observed it yet, some folks say that having a higher quality image at the outset yields a superior quality DVD over SD source material.

i have observed it and i do agree that the statement IS in fact correct.. start with a nice big frame, sharp, concise, and full of motion as good as DV, and downsample to MPG2dvd and you WILL definately see the difference...

with regard to HDV editing.. it depends on ur choice.. u can easily do it using liquid 6, and 6.1 is soon to be released so your sure to see some refinements..

at the mo thou, im gettin footage out of the Z1 which is easily confused with a DSR570 (whcih i recently flogged off) thats no bad thing.. the only dfference is the obvious dynamic range and lower light performance.
Im impressed.. but for me its just temporary until DVCProHD50 comes out..
Thats the pot at the end of the rainbow for me ;)

Kevin Shaw · February 10th, 2005, 09:01 AM

Wedding videos are arguably one of the best current uses of the HDV format, and if we don't see much demand for that this year I'm almost sure we will by next year. The question is whether anyone will be willing to pay enough extra for HDV to make it worthwhile from a business perspective, and for now that does not appear to be the case. But that's more of a marketing problem than anything else, and people with good sales skills and a suitable customer base should be able to find a way to make money doing HDV wedding videos.

By the way, you can fit about the same amount of HD video on a standard DVD as you can SD video (using compressed HD output formats), but playback options are currently limited. When blu-ray players start shipping later this year, that will help solve that problem.

February 9th, 2005, 01:41 AM	#1
Brian Patterson Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 51	Shooting with the new Sony HDV camera..... Just curious about a couple of things. 1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........ 2. Is it true that you can shoot in HDV and down-convert to SD for editing while still preserving the footage in HDV format? 3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD? 4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait? I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events? Looking forward to your thoughts! Thanks in advance!

February 9th, 2005, 07:50 AM	#2
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Re: Shooting with the new Sony HDV camera..... <<<-- Originally posted by Brian Patterson : Just curious about a couple of things. 1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........ I believe you can but with the aid of some hardware. Check with the guys in the Mac forum for more info. 2. Is it true that you can shoot in HDV and down-convert to SD for editing while still preserving the footage in HDV format? I know HD can be down-converted but I'm not quite sure what you mean by "still preserving the footage in HDV". Check out the HDV forum. 3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD? Currently HDV footage cannot be stored on standard DVD discs nor can DVD players play them. If they are down-converted to SD mpeg-2 you can store the same amount as you would be able to with regular SD footage...with regard to the audio/video encoding bitrates. 4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait? There are several formats battling it out right now for market supremecy. The two largest being HD-DVD and Blue-Ray. Time will tell which one (if only one) will prevail. Should you wait?..see below. I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events? This is my take on the onset of HD, and doesn't necessarily mean it's the way all wedding videographers are thinking. Personally I acknowledge HD as the future of video. I'm actually very excited about it. However, right now, as it is in the wedding videography genre you have to consider your clientel. How many households have high-definiintion televisions? That's not even putting a blue-ray or hd-dvd player into the mix. I feel it's going to be some time before this genre is going to switch...not because of the relucatance for shooters to make the technological move but for our clients to do so. I don't think there is enough benefit as a wedding videographer to make the switch now, or any time soon. As the consumers start to catch up bigger and better cameras than the FX-1, etc will become available. Maybe even an FX-"2" or "3". Looking forward to your thoughts! Thanks in advance! -->>>

February 9th, 2005, 08:04 AM	#3
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Re: Shooting with the new Sony HDV camera..... <<<-- Originally posted by Brian Patterson : Just curious about a couple of things. 1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........ ((What Glen Said.. BUT.. one thing i have found is that Final cut (despite the blasphemous comment im about to make LOL) is probably your best bet with HDV at this time.. )) 2. Is it true that you can shoot in HDV and down-convert to SD for editing while still preserving the footage in HDV format? ((yes.. u can shoot in HDV... through firewire the Sony cams will downcoonvert that the Standard DV 720x576 in Pal land or ur standrd 480 in NTSC. This WILL NOT preserve the image quality per se.. it will however offer a sharper image with a native 16:9 wider field of view. Its a good system but the FX1 has a 3 second lag comapred to relatime off the Z1 (yay!! my Z1s finally came!!!!!)) 3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD? ((nothin really.. its still 25mbps... so its equivalent to Standard DV in size capacity vs recording time. youll have to downconvert to mpg2 for DVD if u wnat to deliver the goods.. OR.. convert the M2t to WMV9 HD 720p.. which wont play back properly unless its fed from a HDD, as CD's cannot carry this capacity.. i havent tried it with DVD yet.. )) 4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait? ((U have to wait. there nowhere near.. unless ur using XDCam.. which is what the media is.. BluRay and HD-DVD arent out yet.. and wont be for a while.. on top of that.. initial delivery will eb to the larger distributors and production houses. then the consumer once the format itslef is established.. in teh meantimeeeeeee ur either left with WMV9 720, or direct streaming using something like a DVico TVix.)) I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events? ((yes, but low light performance is nowhere near as refined as the PD or DVX cams.. so a light with a soft diffusor is essential. Maybe a sachler reporter 75. Not to say it looks shite, it doesnt.. in fact i think teh FX1 and Z1 poo all over the XL2.. the only thin i dont like is the fact that its not progressive.. which leads me to the new JVC HDV cam... more on that in Area 51 ;) Oh and addign to what Glen has written.. i agree.. its a pretty basic line of thought and it might be backwards.. but consider this.. how long did it take to get DVD into the home, let alone surround sound home theatre.. now consider the proce of that.. now have a think about the price of a Plasma or LCD display with HD capabilities.. ok so now were left with bgig bux floating all ove rthe place.. to knuckle it down.. i am only working HDV to deliver broadcast multicam projects.. nothing more.. these cams do nothing to increase my Wedding sales.. people DONT UNDERSTAND what it means, let alone the difference it makes to thier presentation. on top of that, editin in HDV is alot mroe time consuming, and frankly, heyre not paying me enough to do that.. Now my breakdown of the matter is this.. until 80% of my clientelle have plasmas, or at least widescreen telelvisions.. THATS when I'll start to worry abotu delivery of HD to them.. When they can go to blockbuster and hire a movie in HD-DVD format.. THATS when i'll start considering it as a viable wedding product... as people will already know the format and recognise the requirements needed to experience it in full.. ))

February 9th, 2005, 03:13 PM	#4
Bob Harotunian Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 360	"I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events?" Yes, in about 2 or 3 years. Even though HD cams are being released, there are too many missing pieces right now. Also, consider the conversion cost since you'll need two HD cameras to be competitive and an HD editing deck just to start. On the business side, I just don't see brides willing to pay for the added cost of HDV for awhile. There's no question that HDV is the future but it's not yet ready for prime time in my opinion. Bob

February 9th, 2005, 11:25 PM	#5
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	<<1. I'm on a mac using Final Cut HD. I understand that this will NOT allow me to edit HDV footage........>> I believe Lumiere HD (beta) will allow you to work in SD and then batch capture in HDV and render for final output but errrr it can't output back to the Sony cameras yet, only the JVC. Given iMovie and FCE support HDV expect it to be announced around NAB for FCP my guess. I've heard there's a workflow to capture with iMovie5, which and capture HD, and then work in FCP. <<3. How much HDV footage can I fit onto a conventional DVD? Do I still convert HDV footage to mpeg-2 for DVD?>> <<4. Anyone know about blueray DVD discs? Are they near? Should I wait?>> Flip4Mac ($179) can create WMV HD files on the Mac straight from FCP, QuicktimePro, iMovie, Cleaner and soon Squeeze. While not Blue Ray or HD-DVD, they can be played from an extremely fast PC and output to an HD tv at much higher rez than SD. <<I shoot primarily weddings. Is this a good option for those type of events?>> To recap, rephrase and add to what others have said. For you, cost of camera, cost of deck, only WMV HD output or back to deck. Your client needs HD TV set, must be able to play WMV HD or take file to very fast PC, buy the deck you buy or buy the camera for playback. Be willing to pay you more to cover your costs. And the Sony HDV cams are not as good gainup in low light as PD-170, VX2100. End of year or early next year maybe for Blu Ray and/or HD-DVD my guess. Maybe another year for sales to be meaningful/almost affordable. By end of 2006 or early 2007 next generation HDV cameras will be out my guess.

February 10th, 2005, 12:43 AM	#6
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	The option you DO have right now as a wedding videographer is to 'acquire' the image in HDV, then edit in HDV and only step down to mpeg2 for the purpose of burning the DVD. This will give your clients something they can play for now, and you can offer to re-master the project in the future for an additional fee once HD delivery is mainstream. Although I haven't personally observed it yet, some folks say that having a higher quality image at the outset yields a superior quality DVD over SD source material. Just a thought... =gb=

February 10th, 2005, 08:13 AM	#7
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Although I haven't personally observed it yet, some folks say that having a higher quality image at the outset yields a superior quality DVD over SD source material. i have observed it and i do agree that the statement IS in fact correct.. start with a nice big frame, sharp, concise, and full of motion as good as DV, and downsample to MPG2dvd and you WILL definately see the difference... with regard to HDV editing.. it depends on ur choice.. u can easily do it using liquid 6, and 6.1 is soon to be released so your sure to see some refinements.. at the mo thou, im gettin footage out of the Z1 which is easily confused with a DSR570 (whcih i recently flogged off) thats no bad thing.. the only dfference is the obvious dynamic range and lower light performance. Im impressed.. but for me its just temporary until DVCProHD50 comes out.. Thats the pot at the end of the rainbow for me ;)

February 10th, 2005, 09:01 AM	#8
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Wedding videos are arguably one of the best current uses of the HDV format, and if we don't see much demand for that this year I'm almost sure we will by next year. The question is whether anyone will be willing to pay enough extra for HDV to make it worthwhile from a business perspective, and for now that does not appear to be the case. But that's more of a marketing problem than anything else, and people with good sales skills and a suitable customer base should be able to find a way to make money doing HDV wedding videos. By the way, you can fit about the same amount of HD video on a standard DVD as you can SD video (using compressed HD output formats), but playback options are currently limited. When blu-ray players start shipping later this year, that will help solve that problem.