Music License trouble... (stupid of me...)

Chris Luker · July 10th, 2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susanto Widjaja

No, but I wouldn't mind if I see my wedding film shown in someone's party because they think its a very cool stuff to be shown :) I'd be thrilled! of course I'd love to be paid for it, but I'm still happy if they just do whatever they like with it because they like what I do.

So you wouldn't mind if someone took one of your videos (that you would have made on spec hoping to make money on sales of that video, not production) and used it to enhance the value of their product without compensation or even credit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susanto Widjaja

This is because I already got paid in the main job. which is the wedding day.

For composers, I think their main income is from album sales, itunes download, concerts, commercials, etc.

And licensing...
Musicians don't get paid to make music, they get paid to sell and license music.
Kind of like feature films.
Sorry, touchy subject for me.

Susanto Widjaja · July 10th, 2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Luker

So you wouldn't mind if someone took one of your videos (that you would have made on spec hoping to make money on sales of that video, not production) and used it to enhance the value of their product without compensation or even credit?

OK, I'm wrong. Nicely put up there by Chris.

Somehow I pictured some guy making a wedding entertainment product and he uses my video without asking for permission.. that'll be quiet upsetting.

Santo

Matthew Craggs · July 10th, 2009, 10:46 AM

Just a little FYI: I was curious and went to hunt down this composer's Twitter page. I typed Kerry Muzzey Twitter into Google and this thread was on the first page of search results, about five or six results from the top.

Considering that you're currently still working out a deal and it's a rather sticky legal issue, it may be best to keep your frustration private, at the risk of what you write here being used against you.

J.J. Kim · July 10th, 2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Craggs

Just a little FYI: I was curious and went to hunt down this composer's Twitter page. I typed Kerry Muzzey Twitter into Google and this thread was on the first page of search results, about five or six results from the top.

Considering that you're currently still working out a deal and it's a rather sticky legal issue, it may be best to keep your frustration private, at the risk of what you write here being used against you.

Thank you for your info, Matthew. It does show up there...
I would like to keep it private, but I just wanted to share with fellow video professions at this forum because as simple thing as following someone in the twitter could cause such a big issue, others (and I) will think twice when they decided to do twitter and facebook in that matter.
But should I erased his name from my first thread??
I am going to do it anyway...

JJ

Travis Cossel · July 10th, 2009, 11:22 AM

First, JJ, I'm really sorry to hear of your troubles. Considering how little we get paid to do what we do as it is, this has got to be very frustrating. I'm sorry, man.

Second, contrary to what Doug said, I seriously doubt that 'crediting' the composer would have made much of a difference in how they interacted with you. If they are willing to pay lawyers to try and get money out of a wedding videographer I seriously doubt they would do things differently if you had put the composers name on the piece.

Third, I would like to point out that there's a difference between using a composer's music in what amounts to a personal project for the couple ... and using someone's video to sell a product or services on a mass scale. I'm not justifying the legality, I'm just saying there is a difference between the two.

Fourth, how long is it going to be before the music industry gets it's act together and gives us a system that works? Seriously.

Lastly, I hope this thread doesn't hurt you JJ, and I appreciate you sharing your story. Very thoughtful of you.

J.J. Kim · July 10th, 2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noel Lising

J.J., I hope they don't charge you an extravagant amount ( I hope they base it on a certain percentage of what you charge).

But I have not made a single penny from the trailer yet, because all the trailers with his music has not been fully produced at DVD yet. They are still in editing process.
I can leave it out from full DVD and explain it to my brides and I am sure they will understand.
I am really nervous right now... (sigh)...

JJ

Doug Bennett · July 10th, 2009, 11:32 AM

Travis - you doubt it would have made any difference? IMHO that is is the classic "get out". There is no point in behaving honorably because they will still go after you for maximum legal damages.

I think JJ knows only too well how much of a difference it would have made.

But perhaps we are wrong. How would you feel if I showed a clip of yours on my website without credit? Would it be different if I included your name, email and website?

Let's get real guys. In the battle between wedding videographers and the rest of the world wedding videographers are not always right.

I do feel for JJ - it's a painful experience, but not giving credit in circumstances where you stand to gain competitive advantage by assuming the credit yourself is flat wrong.

JJ - if this is the biggest mistake of your life the you must be very very young.

Travis - I checked yr work man. VERY nice!! I have some clients coming round in a few - so I've taken a couple of yr clips and put them on my site. Hope that's OK. I won't credit you if that's OK. But if they do explicitly ask who shot that clip I will give them your name. That way no-one can accuse me of dishonesty.

J.J. Kim · July 10th, 2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Bennett

JJ - if this is the biggest mistake of your life the you must be very very young.

I will be 31 this October.
And yep, this one is the biggest one so far, but let's hope not... let's just hope this will work out OK...
The wedding DVDs with the trailer with his music has not been produced yet. All 3 of them are still in editing process and one of them has not been even started yet because the bride has not been submitted her music CD yet.
So really... I haven't made a single penny off his music yet if they want to investigate how much I have made with the trailer itself....
Urgh.. I just want this nightmare to end........
Funny, he is following me as well on Twitter...

JJ

Paul Tauger · July 10th, 2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

Second, contrary to what Doug said, I seriously doubt that 'crediting' the composer would have made much of a difference in how they interacted with you.

I agree completely. Crediting music in this manner is no more nor less than a prima facie admission of intentional infringement.

Quote:

If they are willing to pay lawyers to try and get money out of a wedding videographer I seriously doubt they would do things differently if you had put the composers name on the piece.

Do not, for a moment, think that the primary reason people sue is to get money from the defendant. My advice to IP clients is always the same:

Do not think of an IP lawsuit as a profit center. There is a very simple calculus for determining whether or not to sue: if the cost of litigation is less than the value of the IP at issue, sue. If not, don't.

IP plaintiffs sue to vindicate the right at issue, not to make money. Valid reasons for suing include sending a message to other and potential infringers, get an easy win to hold up to other, more problematic, potential defendants, etc. My clients will routinely pick a "weak" defendant, i.e. one with few financial resources who provides a clear black-and-white case, to get an easy win that can be publicized.

Quote:

Third, I would like to point out that there's a difference between using a composer's music in what amounts to a personal project for the couple ... and using someone's video to sell a product or services on a mass scale. I'm not justifying the legality, I'm just saying there is a difference between the two.

I agree from the standpoint of logic and ethics, though it is worth emphasizing that, from the standpoint of the law, the are one and the same.

Quote:

Fourth, how long is it going to be before the music industry gets it's act together and gives us a system that works? Seriously.

Answer: not until they stop making money from the existing system. I agree that a compulsory license such as that available in Australia (and, I think, Canada), is a simple solution that would work for everyone. I have, however, spoken with BMI's counsel about this and there is simply no interest on their part to push for such a scheme.

Doug Bennett · July 10th, 2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.J. Kim

I will be 31 this October.
And yep, this one is the biggest one so far, but let's hope not... let's just hope this will work out OK...

no JJ however this works out if this is the worst you're doing pretty good in my book. We make mistakes - we get suckered in to behaving dishonorably, because "everybody is doing it".

He is following you on Twitter? Maybe he reads this thread and decides you are a well-intentioned innocent, who has been brainwashed into thinking that because this is "Standard Industry Practice", it is OK. Now you have seen the error of your ways he goes easy on you.

No that couldn't happen.

Travis Cossel · July 10th, 2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Tauger

Answer: not until they stop making money from the existing system. I agree that a compulsory license such as that available in Australia (and, I think, Canada), is a simple solution that would work for everyone. I have, however, spoken with BMI's counsel about this and there is simply no interest on their part to push for such a scheme.

Why is that do you think? I mean, from my perspective it takes care of the legal issues AND provides additional profit all at the same time. Even if the legal issue solution doesn't motivate them, I would think profits would. Is it that they don't believe they would make a profit off of such a system?

Kevin Duffey · July 10th, 2009, 12:52 PM

Hey all,

I read all the posts with great interest because I read the thread a bit a while ago about the discussion of using music as a DJ or in wedding videos.

I am confused by a few issues. I am hoping some of you can clear these up based on J.J.'s issues at hand. As he said..he used this guys music in a video trailer that is on his sight. He didn't credit the guy..ok.. but JJ isnt making money (yet) off of the videos. If I understand correctly, isn't JJ selling the video as part of his service for shooting the wedding video? Thus, there is only 1 person buying it? It's not like he's redistributing this guys music and making money off of it. So how much "license" can a song demand?

I ask this because, I have been wanting to get in to the wedding video business, but after reading this, I don't think I do now. This is insane. I agree a musician needs to make his money, and if J.J. Were selling his music on some site and profiting from it without permission, J.J. would be in a heap of trouble. That is mostly common sense. We see pirated DVDs, CDs, etc all over the place and we read about places that get caught and their owners go to jail.. etc etc.. but they are redistributing music possibly in quantities for profit with not even a penny going back to the original musicians and parties involved in the production of said music. That is illegal.. agree. But J.J is simply using his song in a video that he is "showing off" so while somebody can watch it.. it's not the full song and it's probably not even CD quality and it's not being sold.. so how the heck can he be charged any sort of nominal price for using a portion of the music in a non-profitable way? By that I mean..if this musician has lawyers involved (plural mind you), that's costing the guy a lot of money..probably a lot more than the money JJ was going to make off the whole wedding video service. It would be my guess that he would then try to sue JJ for at least the costs of his lawyers + some sort of cost for the use of the music. I don't know for sure how that works..but it's a guess.. why have lawyers looking into this one use of it and pay their astronomical fees if you don't plan to recoup the costs of their fees at least?

That said, now that I am also scared about thinking of going into this business.. how does one in the US of good o'l A license music for videos? I ask this primarily because I have no money and wanted to offer some free shoots/editings to get a portfolio going..but it sounds like I may get my house taken from me if I try to use any song at all without paying some license? I have read that there is a new site that offers music for wedding videos, events, etc at a low price.. forget how much it was per use, but it wasn't too bad. Naturally wedding people have to work that in to their prices. I would love it if someone could point me to some info on that so I can get a rough idea of what will be required to actually use any music I want in a video.

Incidentally..what about videos people post on YouTube and Facebook and such? If this guy can go after J.J for this.. why can't everyone on youtube and facebook be sued for posting videos with illegal music and such?

You wonder why people download mp3s.. it's because of this crap exactly. People are tired of paying $16 for a CD that costs less than $1 to make an distribute. This is why iTunes has done so well and frankly the music industry is in serious trouble.. even more so with the higher bandwidth internet to homes, more musicians doing it themselves because they don't want to wait for BMI and whoever else to try to sign them and take 90% of their profits, etc.

Sorry for the anger.. but this is just sickening how this happens. Lawyers have been tearing apart people's lives with all kinds of loopholes for decades now and our country is a damn sue happy country at any cost. This is just one more case where a musician could have taken a very professional approach and simply said "Hey, I notice you're using my music.. I like to be credited for it and I ask a nominal fee for use.." Bam. I am sure JJ would have obliged and everybody would be happy. If this guy is going to try to sue JJ, frankly I think his music career is going to have a rough ride. There are professional ways to handle things in small situations like this, I don't think involving lawyers right off is the right approach. Why not be professional, ask JJ for a little compensation that is fair and some credit. That would go a long way in bringing this guy more business. I for one would rather have seen JJ say "Hey guys..I got caught on twitter by a musician for using his music, but this guy was really professional.. asked me to credit him and pay a nominal fee for each use.. you guys should check out his site and music.. give him some business." To me..that would have been far better. But our country is no longer built on good morals like this.. everyone is out to make a buck and screw the next guy over.

Ugh.. JJ, I feel for you man.. this makes me angry just reading this. I am really sorry you're going through it. :( I hope it turns out ok.

Chris Davis · July 10th, 2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Bennett

This is a very unfortunate trend in wedding video. Hunting out more obscure pieces of music which the client is unlikely to have heard.

Why? If you're going to use obscure music that the client has never heard, why not use legally obtained royalty free music from Stock20, Digital Juice, Free Play Music, et al?

This event reinforces my opinion that soon (very soon!) music publishers, composers and authors will use music fingerprinting software to crawl the web searching for infringing uses of their music, including in videos many of you have posted on your websites. Facebook and YouTube already do it, what makes you think others won't?

Chris Davis · July 10th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Duffey

I am confused by a few issues. I am hoping some of you can clear these up based on J.J.'s issues at hand. As he said..he used this guys music in a video trailer that is on his sight. He didn't credit the guy..ok.. but JJ isnt making money (yet) off of the videos. If I understand correctly, isn't JJ selling the video as part of his service for shooting the wedding video? Thus, there is only 1 person buying it? It's not like he's redistributing this guys music and making money off of it. So how much "license" can a song demand?

It doesn't matter how many copies or if it's being sold or given away. He used the music without permission. It doesn't matter if he only made a video for his dying grandmother.

Quote:

how does one in the US of good o'l A license music for videos? ... I would love it if someone could point me to some info on that so I can get a rough idea of what will be required to actually use any music I want in a video.

You can purchase royalty-free music from stock20.com, digitaljuice.com, freeplaymusic.com and many others.

BTW, it gets worse. When you record and redistribute the bride's cousin singing "Endless Love" during the ceremony, you are violating copyright.

Quote:

Incidentally..what about videos people post on YouTube and Facebook and such? If this guy can go after J.J for this.. why can't everyone on youtube and facebook be sued for posting videos with illegal music and such?

They don't get away with it. YouTube and Facebook have music fingerprinting software that will eventually sniff out your infringing video, remove it from the site, and alert the rights holder. Maybe those people are getting the shakedown from those music publishers, or maybe not. None of them have posted their experiences here.

Quote:

This is just one more case where a musician could have taken a very professional approach and simply said "Hey, I notice you're using my music.. I like to be credited for it and I ask a nominal fee for use.." Bam.

That is what's happening. So chill out.

Vito DeFilippo · July 10th, 2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Davis

This event reinforces my opinion that soon (very soon!) music publishers, composers and authors will use music fingerprinting software to crawl the web searching for infringing uses of their music, including in videos many of you have posted on your websites. Facebook and YouTube already do it, what makes you think others won't?

I think this would be great. Right now, we break copyright constantly because if we refuse to use the songs the couple wants, we don't get the job. So this topic gets hashed and bashed around over and over.

Wouldn't it be great if we could just all get to say to our clients "nope, can't do it. Here's a list of royalty free stuff from my library that I can use in your video. The music police have shut us all down."

Then we could just get on with it.

July 10th, 2009, 11:22 AM	#20
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	First, JJ, I'm really sorry to hear of your troubles. Considering how little we get paid to do what we do as it is, this has got to be very frustrating. I'm sorry, man. Second, contrary to what Doug said, I seriously doubt that 'crediting' the composer would have made much of a difference in how they interacted with you. If they are willing to pay lawyers to try and get money out of a wedding videographer I seriously doubt they would do things differently if you had put the composers name on the piece. Third, I would like to point out that there's a difference between using a composer's music in what amounts to a personal project for the couple ... and using someone's video to sell a product or services on a mass scale. I'm not justifying the legality, I'm just saying there is a difference between the two. Fourth, how long is it going to be before the music industry gets it's act together and gives us a system that works? Seriously. Lastly, I hope this thread doesn't hurt you JJ, and I appreciate you sharing your story. Very thoughtful of you. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

July 10th, 2009, 10:46 AM	#18
Matthew Craggs Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Welland, Ontario Posts: 311	Just a little FYI: I was curious and went to hunt down this composer's Twitter page. I typed Kerry Muzzey Twitter into Google and this thread was on the first page of search results, about five or six results from the top. Considering that you're currently still working out a deal and it's a rather sticky legal issue, it may be best to keep your frustration private, at the risk of what you write here being used against you.

July 10th, 2009, 11:32 AM	#22
Doug Bennett Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 260	Travis - you doubt it would have made any difference? IMHO that is is the classic "get out". There is no point in behaving honorably because they will still go after you for maximum legal damages. I think JJ knows only too well how much of a difference it would have made. But perhaps we are wrong. How would you feel if I showed a clip of yours on my website without credit? Would it be different if I included your name, email and website? Let's get real guys. In the battle between wedding videographers and the rest of the world wedding videographers are not always right. I do feel for JJ - it's a painful experience, but not giving credit in circumstances where you stand to gain competitive advantage by assuming the credit yourself is flat wrong. JJ - if this is the biggest mistake of your life the you must be very very young. Travis - I checked yr work man. VERY nice!! I have some clients coming round in a few - so I've taken a couple of yr clips and put them on my site. Hope that's OK. I won't credit you if that's OK. But if they do explicitly ask who shot that clip I will give them your name. That way no-one can accuse me of dishonesty.

July 10th, 2009, 12:52 PM	#27
Kevin Duffey Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: California Posts: 206	Hey all, I read all the posts with great interest because I read the thread a bit a while ago about the discussion of using music as a DJ or in wedding videos. I am confused by a few issues. I am hoping some of you can clear these up based on J.J.'s issues at hand. As he said..he used this guys music in a video trailer that is on his sight. He didn't credit the guy..ok.. but JJ isnt making money (yet) off of the videos. If I understand correctly, isn't JJ selling the video as part of his service for shooting the wedding video? Thus, there is only 1 person buying it? It's not like he's redistributing this guys music and making money off of it. So how much "license" can a song demand? I ask this because, I have been wanting to get in to the wedding video business, but after reading this, I don't think I do now. This is insane. I agree a musician needs to make his money, and if J.J. Were selling his music on some site and profiting from it without permission, J.J. would be in a heap of trouble. That is mostly common sense. We see pirated DVDs, CDs, etc all over the place and we read about places that get caught and their owners go to jail.. etc etc.. but they are redistributing music possibly in quantities for profit with not even a penny going back to the original musicians and parties involved in the production of said music. That is illegal.. agree. But J.J is simply using his song in a video that he is "showing off" so while somebody can watch it.. it's not the full song and it's probably not even CD quality and it's not being sold.. so how the heck can he be charged any sort of nominal price for using a portion of the music in a non-profitable way? By that I mean..if this musician has lawyers involved (plural mind you), that's costing the guy a lot of money..probably a lot more than the money JJ was going to make off the whole wedding video service. It would be my guess that he would then try to sue JJ for at least the costs of his lawyers + some sort of cost for the use of the music. I don't know for sure how that works..but it's a guess.. why have lawyers looking into this one use of it and pay their astronomical fees if you don't plan to recoup the costs of their fees at least? That said, now that I am also scared about thinking of going into this business.. how does one in the US of good o'l A license music for videos? I ask this primarily because I have no money and wanted to offer some free shoots/editings to get a portfolio going..but it sounds like I may get my house taken from me if I try to use any song at all without paying some license? I have read that there is a new site that offers music for wedding videos, events, etc at a low price.. forget how much it was per use, but it wasn't too bad. Naturally wedding people have to work that in to their prices. I would love it if someone could point me to some info on that so I can get a rough idea of what will be required to actually use any music I want in a video. Incidentally..what about videos people post on YouTube and Facebook and such? If this guy can go after J.J for this.. why can't everyone on youtube and facebook be sued for posting videos with illegal music and such? You wonder why people download mp3s.. it's because of this crap exactly. People are tired of paying $16 for a CD that costs less than $1 to make an distribute. This is why iTunes has done so well and frankly the music industry is in serious trouble.. even more so with the higher bandwidth internet to homes, more musicians doing it themselves because they don't want to wait for BMI and whoever else to try to sign them and take 90% of their profits, etc. Sorry for the anger.. but this is just sickening how this happens. Lawyers have been tearing apart people's lives with all kinds of loopholes for decades now and our country is a damn sue happy country at any cost. This is just one more case where a musician could have taken a very professional approach and simply said "Hey, I notice you're using my music.. I like to be credited for it and I ask a nominal fee for use.." Bam. I am sure JJ would have obliged and everybody would be happy. If this guy is going to try to sue JJ, frankly I think his music career is going to have a rough ride. There are professional ways to handle things in small situations like this, I don't think involving lawyers right off is the right approach. Why not be professional, ask JJ for a little compensation that is fair and some credit. That would go a long way in bringing this guy more business. I for one would rather have seen JJ say "Hey guys..I got caught on twitter by a musician for using his music, but this guy was really professional.. asked me to credit him and pay a nominal fee for each use.. you guys should check out his site and music.. give him some business." To me..that would have been far better. But our country is no longer built on good morals like this.. everyone is out to make a buck and screw the next guy over. Ugh.. JJ, I feel for you man.. this makes me angry just reading this. I am really sorry you're going through it. :( I hope it turns out ok.