Photo/Video Wars

Ryan Morey · February 5th, 2009, 08:01 PM

well truth be told...there are a few more hats to be worn to shoot video.I understand it does take a bit longer to edit video,But you can sure set up a video camera "with all the correct settings" and have your average Joe get a couple good shots as well.The door swings both ways Yang.It seems like the video guy is looking down on the photographers from my stand point.I don't think there are many people out there that can produce the quality of work we do as consistently as we do.Also keep in mind that us lowly photographers have to deal with album designs,slide shows,print orders,etc.I'm sure I spend much more time working on any given wedding then most video guys do when you take all those things into account.That is if they only shoot video.Well let's just agree to disagree......ok? I am in awe of some of the talent in this forum and pull much inspiration from you guys....I just don't like when what I do gets trashed.After all I am a talented handsome sensitive man...lol.And now I'll start packing for my steadicam workshop this weekend! Have a great weekend everyone!

Ryan:)

Travis Cossel · February 5th, 2009, 09:02 PM

I just thought I'd chime in on this. I agree that there's no reason to bash one medium or the other, but I also think it's ignorant to just assume that they both have the same requirements.

Having been on both sides of the lens, I would say shooting quality video is significantly more difficult. There are dozens of reasons for this; video is more difficult to work with in low light, video can't make use of flash technology, video involves the capture of thousands and thousands of consecutive frames (and they all must be good in order for the clip to work), video involves recording entire events (like that 20 minute toast you end up having to shoot handheld while the photographer is done after a couple of shots), video requires a steady hand for anywhere from 5 seconds to 5 minutes (or oftentimes much longer), video requires motion elements, video editing in general is far more time-consuming than designing an album (especially when most photographers simply use design templates - I know for a fact that a large album can be designed in a day), with video if someone blocks your shot you can't generally just move to a better location, video involves audio (and if nothing else made video more difficult, this would).

Professional photographers have a difficult job, but I guarantee you it feels like a vacation for me to shoot stills at a wedding versus shooting video. I sometimes hear the argument that photographers have to come up with quality poses during the photoshoot, and I agree that this isn't easy. The flip side of this, if you're a videographer, is that you generally don't get to set up any of your own shots. And we all know that the shots that work for photography often don't work as well for video.

There's no need to have hurt feelings on this. Both fields require proper equipment/software and substantial skill to provide an excellent product. In my opinion both mediums are critical to the proper capture of someone's wedding day. But I do get a bit annoyed when photographers (my wife is one) assume that wedding photography is just as difficult as wedding videography. It's not even close.

Yang Wen · February 5th, 2009, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Morey

well truth be told...there are a few more hats to be worn to shoot video.I understand it does take a bit longer to edit video,But you can sure set up a video camera "with all the correct settings" and have your average Joe get a couple good shots as well.The door swings both ways Yang.It seems like the video guy is looking down on the photographers from my stand point.I don't think there are many people out there that can produce the quality of work we do as consistently as we do.Also keep in mind that us lowly photographers have to deal with album designs,slide shows,print orders,etc.I'm sure I spend much more time working on any given wedding then most video guys do when you take all those things into account.That is if they only shoot video.Well let's just agree to disagree......ok? I am in awe of some of the talent in this forum and pull much inspiration from you guys....I just don't like when what I do gets trashed.After all I am a talented handsome sensitive man...lol.And now I'll start packing for my steadicam workshop this weekend! Have a great weekend everyone!

Ryan:)

A photo is snapshot of time. Good photographic eye, composition, and lucky timing all contribute to a successful photo. You give a person a DSLR, put him in a situation where good action occurs in front of him and just tell him to fire away. Most likely, he'll come out with more than a few usable photos. Video on the other hand is a continuous stream of images. Sure you can hand an unskilled shooter a Sony EX1 that's all setup for proper exposure and put him in the same situation where the action is. He'll be able to hold the camera up no doubt, but if he pans too fast or jostles the camera while filming a 3 second fancy camera move, everything will be ruined. Or most likely, he'll just stand there working the zoom rocker like there's no tomorrow because he has no concept of how the pace of the footage, including camera moves(or lack of a camera move) will affect the editing later on. Also I haven't even gotten into the fact that the general public has burnt into their subconsciousness of what a high-end video production looks like - Almost always involving elaborate lighting, and camera moves that can only be achieved by dolly, steadicam, or jib arm - All are elements that require a large crew and cumbersome equipment. Most wedding videographers do not have such luxuries and are forced to compete with this well established notion of "high-end" by using paltry 1/3" camcorders and on-camera lights. The DSLRs in a wedding photographer's bag can most definitely be used to shoot 100% of the high-end photo work we see on billboards, and fashion magazines. Much smaller technical hurdles..

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I shoot wedding photos as well. I offer both services. I speak from personal experience when I say there is way less amount of work is involved (even with album design), and "relatively" much lower technical learning curve involved with wedding photography. Posing subjects and interacting with them for a full day is a challenge that is entirely foreign to folks of the video world. However, if you shoot for a specific style, you can get away without too much posing and interaction. In short, it is much easier for someone to develop photographic skills to produce decent to good photos than it is for someone to develop video shooting and editing skills to produce videos of the same caliber. This then explains why the general public's perception of the industry is that there are more videographers putting out bad stuff than there are photographers.

Steve Shovlar · February 6th, 2009, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

I also think photographers in general are more extroverted than videographers, I think this is also why photographers' rants against videographers are heard more..

Reason being as a videographer the last thing we want is our voice on the DVD. A photographer doesn't record sound so can talk until the cows come home. but we don't want our voice on the film unless its during an interview, hence it seems we are introverted in comparison.

I have had bad experiences with a few photographers myself. One so bad it got to the stage that when I got him to one side I had to say to him that if he stood in front of my shot again ( on purpose) he would be leaving the reception with his Nikon wedged up his arse. I explained before the church ceremony that I would be filming them coming up the isle when leaving the church and we could stand side by side and shoot so neither would be in the shot. He mumbled something under his breath. I was at the back and about to film them leaving church when the photographer walked up the isle, stood in front of them and took a few shots, then slowly backed up taking shots as the couple made their way out of church. All I got was the back of the photographer. I was steaming angry.

I make sure when we first meet to have a friendly chat about the day and do explain that I need certain shots and 95% are absolutely fine. They do their thing, and I need time for mine. You can usually tell within the first couple of minutes if you are going to get on with them or not. But always try to be pro. It takes a lot to get me riled but that one guy managed to tip me a bit too far.

Ryan Morey · February 6th, 2009, 08:08 AM

Hi Guys,

Travis, I've never said that video isn't more difficult to shoot than stills. That's the last thing I expected people to take from my posts.I was just defending the photography side of things. Video is insanely difficult....At least when you are putting out a superior products like yourself and the members of this forum. The only thing that bothered me was when it was stated that anybody with the right setting can be a good photographer...that's all.I in no way meant to offend anyone of you guys in the video world...that I am also a part of now.If anyone sees the difference between the technical aspects of video and photo it's me.I was very intimidated by the whole idea of starting a video end of the biz....especially after seeing the kind of stuff you guys put out. The video industry around my neck of the woods is pretty 1980's.. and I wanted to bring something to the table that no one else around here does.... high quality,well edited,high impact cinematic wedding films. There are plenty of shabby photogs out there that make us all look bad. Just as there are video guys that do the same.

Yang, I completely understand what you are talking about. Video is a completely different thing.A agree that video has a much much steeper learning curve than stills,That's obvious. I've watched many of your trailers and am a great admirer of your work....I'm glad you don't live around here....lol.I do understand that you also shoot stills and I'm sure that you agree when a guest comes up to you when you are shooting either video or stills and says........."wow that camera must take great pictures" you don't at least get a bit annoyed.I always bite my tongue any agree "yup it's a great piece of equipment". Well that was why I got a little bit defensive when YOU a wedding pro basically said the same thing. Now maybe I read things wrong (it's happened before:)).I love having you guys around to dish out your advice and professional opinions.I can't believe all the things that I've learned here on dvi.I can't imagine there is a higher concentration of talented video professionals on the net. You guys rock! and I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut... Seriously I really didn't mean to ruffle any feathers around here.... especially being a noob.I look forward to sharing my work and having you guys critique it.I value your opinions immensely. Sorry if I misread anything "can't we all just get aloooong" Rodney King.

Ryan

Ethan Cooper · February 6th, 2009, 09:10 AM

Executing either medium with repeatable excellence requires skill, and although the two fields are closely related, they require different skill sets.

I've made the argument in the past that excellent photography can't be supplanted by frame grabs from video and excellent video isn't going to be shot by a photographer at a wedding. There are two different skill sets involved for professional photography and professional videography, neither one is any easier than the other. That being said, an amateur can get lucky now and again and get a good shot, especially since equipment for both fields has gotten more sophisticated and can produce visually stunning images with minimal training.

Travis Cossel · February 6th, 2009, 01:55 PM

Ryan, no worries. Maybe I read a bit too much into your earlier post. It sounds like we're on the exact same page. In regards to BOTH mediums, it's amazing to me that consumers don't place more value on the experience of the person behind the lens. Shooting a wedding well involves a lot of experience. Even someone who is adept at shooting other things won't necessarily do well at a wedding. Unfortunately people sometimes go to a website and see a few good images and think that person is a good wedding photographer.

Ryan Morey · February 9th, 2009, 07:05 PM

Hey guys,

Well we had a great weekend at the steadicam workshop! We learned a lot and have much more to learn.But at least we have the basics to work with.It's good to see the war has settled a bit over the weekend...lol.Thanks for the comment Travis.I knew someone would get what I was going for.Well here's to many years with my new steadicam obsession...I've been bit by the bug!

Ryan

David Samelman · February 11th, 2009, 11:39 PM

How could you get the Steadicam "bug" after only two (10-hour) days flying rigs up and down stairs, through doors, on a modified segway, and chasing water bottles as if you were shooting a commercial? I would at least need breakfast and lunch (and an official "Steadicam" bubble leveler) :-)

Ryan Morey · February 12th, 2009, 07:11 AM

I don't know....why don't YOU tell me DAVE....lol.

Ryan:)

Ger Griffin · February 15th, 2009, 09:22 PM

Well guys, I just had my first seriously badly behaved photographer yesterday and remembered this thread was going on.
I've read it from top to bottom and actually feel a bit better about things knowing it happens to all of us sooner or later.
I've been a videog for many years yet only properly experienced it yesterday.
No need to go into it, Im sure ye can all picture it.

February 5th, 2009, 08:01 PM	#46
Ryan Morey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wildwood Crest, NJ Posts: 140	well truth be told...there are a few more hats to be worn to shoot video.I understand it does take a bit longer to edit video,But you can sure set up a video camera "with all the correct settings" and have your average Joe get a couple good shots as well.The door swings both ways Yang.It seems like the video guy is looking down on the photographers from my stand point.I don't think there are many people out there that can produce the quality of work we do as consistently as we do.Also keep in mind that us lowly photographers have to deal with album designs,slide shows,print orders,etc.I'm sure I spend much more time working on any given wedding then most video guys do when you take all those things into account.That is if they only shoot video.Well let's just agree to disagree......ok? I am in awe of some of the talent in this forum and pull much inspiration from you guys....I just don't like when what I do gets trashed.After all I am a talented handsome sensitive man...lol.And now I'll start packing for my steadicam workshop this weekend! Have a great weekend everyone! Ryan:) __________________ www.rhmphotography.com What you talkin bout Willis?

February 5th, 2009, 09:02 PM	#47
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	I just thought I'd chime in on this. I agree that there's no reason to bash one medium or the other, but I also think it's ignorant to just assume that they both have the same requirements. Having been on both sides of the lens, I would say shooting quality video is significantly more difficult. There are dozens of reasons for this; video is more difficult to work with in low light, video can't make use of flash technology, video involves the capture of thousands and thousands of consecutive frames (and they all must be good in order for the clip to work), video involves recording entire events (like that 20 minute toast you end up having to shoot handheld while the photographer is done after a couple of shots), video requires a steady hand for anywhere from 5 seconds to 5 minutes (or oftentimes much longer), video requires motion elements, video editing in general is far more time-consuming than designing an album (especially when most photographers simply use design templates - I know for a fact that a large album can be designed in a day), with video if someone blocks your shot you can't generally just move to a better location, video involves audio (and if nothing else made video more difficult, this would). Professional photographers have a difficult job, but I guarantee you it feels like a vacation for me to shoot stills at a wedding versus shooting video. I sometimes hear the argument that photographers have to come up with quality poses during the photoshoot, and I agree that this isn't easy. The flip side of this, if you're a videographer, is that you generally don't get to set up any of your own shots. And we all know that the shots that work for photography often don't work as well for video. There's no need to have hurt feelings on this. Both fields require proper equipment/software and substantial skill to provide an excellent product. In my opinion both mediums are critical to the proper capture of someone's wedding day. But I do get a bit annoyed when photographers (my wife is one) assume that wedding photography is just as difficult as wedding videography. It's not even close. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

February 6th, 2009, 08:08 AM	#50
Ryan Morey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wildwood Crest, NJ Posts: 140	Hi Guys, Travis, I've never said that video isn't more difficult to shoot than stills. That's the last thing I expected people to take from my posts.I was just defending the photography side of things. Video is insanely difficult....At least when you are putting out a superior products like yourself and the members of this forum. The only thing that bothered me was when it was stated that anybody with the right setting can be a good photographer...that's all.I in no way meant to offend anyone of you guys in the video world...that I am also a part of now.If anyone sees the difference between the technical aspects of video and photo it's me.I was very intimidated by the whole idea of starting a video end of the biz....especially after seeing the kind of stuff you guys put out. The video industry around my neck of the woods is pretty 1980's.. and I wanted to bring something to the table that no one else around here does.... high quality,well edited,high impact cinematic wedding films. There are plenty of shabby photogs out there that make us all look bad. Just as there are video guys that do the same. Yang, I completely understand what you are talking about. Video is a completely different thing.A agree that video has a much much steeper learning curve than stills,That's obvious. I've watched many of your trailers and am a great admirer of your work....I'm glad you don't live around here....lol.I do understand that you also shoot stills and I'm sure that you agree when a guest comes up to you when you are shooting either video or stills and says........."wow that camera must take great pictures" you don't at least get a bit annoyed.I always bite my tongue any agree "yup it's a great piece of equipment". Well that was why I got a little bit defensive when YOU a wedding pro basically said the same thing. Now maybe I read things wrong (it's happened before:)).I love having you guys around to dish out your advice and professional opinions.I can't believe all the things that I've learned here on dvi.I can't imagine there is a higher concentration of talented video professionals on the net. You guys rock! and I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut... Seriously I really didn't mean to ruffle any feathers around here.... especially being a noob.I look forward to sharing my work and having you guys critique it.I value your opinions immensely. Sorry if I misread anything "can't we all just get aloooong" Rodney King. Ryan __________________ www.rhmphotography.com What you talkin bout Willis?

February 6th, 2009, 09:10 AM	#51
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	Executing either medium with repeatable excellence requires skill, and although the two fields are closely related, they require different skill sets. I've made the argument in the past that excellent photography can't be supplanted by frame grabs from video and excellent video isn't going to be shot by a photographer at a wedding. There are two different skill sets involved for professional photography and professional videography, neither one is any easier than the other. That being said, an amateur can get lucky now and again and get a good shot, especially since equipment for both fields has gotten more sophisticated and can produce visually stunning images with minimal training. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

February 6th, 2009, 01:55 PM	#52
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Ryan, no worries. Maybe I read a bit too much into your earlier post. It sounds like we're on the exact same page. In regards to BOTH mediums, it's amazing to me that consumers don't place more value on the experience of the person behind the lens. Shooting a wedding well involves a lot of experience. Even someone who is adept at shooting other things won't necessarily do well at a wedding. Unfortunately people sometimes go to a website and see a few good images and think that person is a good wedding photographer. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

February 9th, 2009, 07:05 PM	#53
Ryan Morey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wildwood Crest, NJ Posts: 140	Hey guys, Well we had a great weekend at the steadicam workshop! We learned a lot and have much more to learn.But at least we have the basics to work with.It's good to see the war has settled a bit over the weekend...lol.Thanks for the comment Travis.I knew someone would get what I was going for.Well here's to many years with my new steadicam obsession...I've been bit by the bug! Ryan __________________ www.rhmphotography.com What you talkin bout Willis?

February 11th, 2009, 11:39 PM	#54
David Samelman New Boot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New York Posts: 17	How could you get the Steadicam "bug" after only two (10-hour) days flying rigs up and down stairs, through doors, on a modified segway, and chasing water bottles as if you were shooting a commercial? I would at least need breakfast and lunch (and an official "Steadicam" bubble leveler) :-)

February 12th, 2009, 07:11 AM	#55
Ryan Morey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wildwood Crest, NJ Posts: 140	I don't know....why don't YOU tell me DAVE....lol. Ryan:) __________________ www.rhmphotography.com What you talkin bout Willis?

February 15th, 2009, 09:22 PM	#56
Ger Griffin Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 579	Well guys, I just had my first seriously badly behaved photographer yesterday and remembered this thread was going on. I've read it from top to bottom and actually feel a bit better about things knowing it happens to all of us sooner or later. I've been a videog for many years yet only properly experienced it yesterday. No need to go into it, Im sure ye can all picture it.