Photo/Video Wars

Don Bloom · February 3rd, 2009, 03:09 PM

hmmmm, maybe I'll make a flyer "Why still photography is a waste of money". ;-)

In my time and having started as a still guy a hundred years ago, after many conversations with a lot of photogs, it seems that a lot of the anomosity comes from the "old timers" who know that many years ago we really had to light the place up with some awesome lights (think sun guns at least) which of course we no longer have to do. But in their minds...

Then you get the folks that have been around say 10-15 years and some of them feel threatened by those of us in the video end of the business. They feel that our being there is somehow going to take their business away. Maybe they should learn to be better shooters and people. Spend more time on their craft and less time bashing the videographers.

It seems to me the newer folks in photography are quite open to video. Many of them at least the ones I have worked with realize just how helpful WE can be at a wedding. There have been times in the past a DJ is ready to do something and the photog is nowhere around and I'll try to keep the DJ from going ahead and try to fine the photog. Things like that. Heck I have a friend that hates the posed shots after the ceremony and asks me to set them up for him. I always laugh about that and tell him he should split his fee with me. We work very well together and have a good time with it.

Fortunately 99% of the photogs I've worked with over the years have been really good and fun to work with.

Don

Bryan Daugherty · February 3rd, 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

Now that's funny. Wonder why they have an ax to grind?

I worked with that studio on one wedding and it was tense indeed. They fear that people will buy videos and not photos, from what i could glean from him, so they decided a preemptive strike is a sound business plan. I had a bride bring me a copy of the flyer at one of our meetings and it said things like, "photography will only show the best moments from your wedding, videography will show every flaw" and "you can decorate your house with your wedding photos but to show your video you have to make your guests sit through hours of video." And on, and on...

Just goes to show you can spin anything to hurt or help others.

When I first partnered up with my preferred photography service provider one of the first questions he asked is how soon will your videography put us out of business? I was floored and then he explained a concern that the higher def cams screen grabs may replace need for his services. I reassured him but in the back of my mind there is some validation to his fear. if scarlet became widespread, perhaps, but as I explained to him (and many of you would agree) the person behind the lens is who they are hiring and his 50+ yrs of experience wouldn't be replaced that easily.

Dave Blackhurst · February 3rd, 2009, 04:21 PM

Bottom line, more lenses = more complete capture of the day and the precious moments therein... doesn't matter whether the camera is still or video...

Any studio so stupid as to spread FUD only discredits their own product... think about it, if they are so threatened as to have to badmouth someone else (or a whole industry, without regard to individual skilled practitioners) to get work, would YOU be comfortable hiring them?

I'm smart enough to know that as hard as I try I won't nail EVERY shot every time (though multi-cam helps a LOT!)... having an extra cam angle or still to cut to is just good sense, and with HD, being able to pull the occasional still when needed is bonus points...

If all the vendors remember that they are there for the B&G, and NOTHING should get in the way of doing the absolute best possible job for them, none of the "Pix vs. Flix" nonsense would even exist.

Yang Wen · February 3rd, 2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Emery

Do you think the reason many photographers have little respect for videographers is because most wedding videographers are crappy and do very poor work?

But I think the majority of people who claim to be wedding videographers are hacks. The professional photographers know that and, unless they know you are a quality-oriented producer, they consider you to be a hack as well and will not give you the respect you may deserve.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I'm not saying all wedding videographers are hacks but many are. And it's those hacks that have ruined it for the quality producers and made it hard to charge and get the prices photographers get.

Jeff

Video takes a much greater set skills to produce good work.. Hell hand anyone without ANY photography skills a DSLR(with the proper settings dialed-in) and if he blindly press the shutter a few times and will snap a few decent photos - GUARANTEED. Video on the other hand - not so easy.

I think this the reason why there are many more photographers who are able to produce decent to good quality of work than there are videographers.

I also think photographers in general are more extroverted than videographers, I think this is also why photographers' rants against videographers are heard more..

Bryan Daugherty · February 3rd, 2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

...If all the vendors remember that they are there for the B&G, and NOTHING should get in the way of doing the absolute best possible job for them, none of the "Pix vs. Flix" nonsense would even exist.

Hear! Hear! (said with a hearty clap on the back)

But seriously, i think that this is what it all comes down to. Most vendors regardless of trade realize this and are doing good business with good rep because of it. Dave you said it well. As long as everyone wants to keep the customer happy then we all get along great. I want them to have the best pictures they can and the best video they can.

Vito DeFilippo · February 3rd, 2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Wilky

A few months later i sent her company a compilation DVD with all the shots that she and her assistant walked into. I informed them that i was showing this video to all my customers and telling them to be carefully when hiring unprofessional photographers... (if people asked me who the photog. comp... was i felt i had to tell them). A few weeks later i got a call from the company apologizing for the photog's behavior and told me that she was let go for her lack of professionalism with several of their clients. I've been one of their referrals ever since.

Wow, Carl, what a great move. Nobody I know, I hope.

I tend to work with the same photographers over and over, since we sell both photo and video. But sometimes I'll shoot with a stranger. In general, I've found photographers to be very nice and helpful at best, and perhaps standoffish at worst.

I did have one guy who brought the bride and groom to his studio after the ceremony, and didn't want me to come in and shoot. I'm not sure what he thought might happen...would I steal his ideas for decor? I don't know. Anyway, we had a chat and I reassured him. After that, no problem. He was kind of old school style, though, so maybe the video felt threatening to him.

Carl Wilky · February 4th, 2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Wow, Carl, what a great move. Nobody I know, I hope.

Probably not Vito, it was a small company in the boonies somewhere in Vaudreuil. I would put up their company name on the forum but since they have generated good business for me since, i don't think it would be a smart move. ;)

Jeff Kellam · February 4th, 2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John De Rienzo

This weekend, I had a photographer knowingly step right in front of my camera for the isle shot, continued to have his head and whole body in front of my lens...

Just hearing your story really burns me. A pro wouldn't let this slide. I would discreetly wait for him in the parking area. The only way people learn their mistakes is by being told in a manner they won't forget. But, maybe Im just turning into a mean old man.

Thankfully, I don't do church weddings, my clients are all location (99% local) weddings.

Ryan Morey · February 4th, 2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

Video takes a much greater set skills to produce good work.. Hell hand anyone without ANY photography skills a DSLR(with the proper settings dialed-in) and if he blindly press the shutter a few times and will snap a few decent photos - GUARANTEED. Video on the other hand - not so easy.

Well Yang I don't think it's fair to suggest that just about anyone can be a good photographer. I take a bit of offense to that statement. I've been a photographer for 10 years now and I've seen many people come and go with lesser skills. Either way weather it be photo or video....It takes an artistic eye.Yes anyone can pick up a dslr and take a picture but the same goes for video. Both require certain skill sets and composition skills. I understand that most of the video guys are a little uneasy about the whole 5d thing. And sure many photographers will assume that they can just pick one up and start getting amazing footage. When the reality sets in that it's not that easy they will all drop like flies. And then in turn hopefully start respecting your art form a bit more......right? So please take it down a notch.

Ryan:)

Matthew Craggs · February 4th, 2009, 02:11 PM

Re: the "Why Videography is a waste" article, I vividly remember seeing the text from a document of the same name in a thread at photo.net. I do not know rather this is the same document, or an other one with the same name, but I do remember the sentiments were the same.

The response from the other photographers was along the lines of Dave's posting in earlier in this thread: discrediting other vendors only makes you appear bitter, weak, and lacking confidence in your own product.

I would never speak badly of any other photographer, videographer, or wedding professional. Can you imagine what you would think if you took your car to a mechanic and the first thing they said was, "You better bring your car to us because the guy down the road is horrible."

Luckily, I have never had a bad experience with a photographer, young or old. But when I do a DVD compilation of blocked shots may be in order :)

Travis Cossel · February 4th, 2009, 05:40 PM

I think that there are any number of reasons that photogs can act unprofessional.

Some people are just unprofessional, no matter what they are doing.

Some photogs (especially in my market) aren't used to working side-by-side with videographers, and are inexperienced in that way.

Some photogs are just clueless in everything in life.

Some photogs feel that their job is more important. This can stem from many things; ego, the fact that brides place more emphasis on photography (generally), the fact that photography has been around longer, the fact the maybe they haven't actually seen good videography.

I've been toying with the idea of creating something to send out to a photographer before the wedding to sort of outline what I will be doing and how the photographer can accommodate me, as well as opening a dialogue for how I can help them. The wedding day is not the time to work out kinks.

Yang Wen · February 5th, 2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Morey

Well Yang I don't think it's fair to suggest that just about anyone can be a good photographer. I take a bit of offense to that statement. I've been a photographer for 10 years now and I've seen many people come and go with lesser skills. Either way weather it be photo or video....It takes an artistic eye.Yes anyone can pick up a dslr and take a picture but the same goes for video. Both require certain skill sets and composition skills. I understand that most of the video guys are a little uneasy about the whole 5d thing. And sure many photographers will assume that they can just pick one up and start getting amazing footage. When the reality sets in that it's not that easy they will all drop like flies. And then in turn hopefully start respecting your art form a bit more......right? So please take it down a notch.

Ryan:)

Hey Ryan, don't think you got what I was saying.. My example was to illustrate, that once the settings are dialed in by someone who knows what they're doing, anyone can press the shutter at that point, and after a few shots, one will bound to turn out good. Depending on the style of photo you do, luck and timing are all crucial elements of a good photo, and anyone can get lucky right? Of course, this doesn't include the skills it takes to interact with subjects, posing, etc.. but you get the idea. That once a proper pic has been taken, there's only little work left in post relative to all the video editing & sound mixing that is required for a proper wedding video. It is also why if needed, a photographer can deliever edited photos from a wedding in matter of days(perhaps even less than a day), but it takes magnitudes longer for a video to be finished..

I also do both photo and video. I started out in video and I can speak from my person experience that photo has a much lower learning curve from a technical perspective. This is reflected by the greater number of photographers who are able to put out decent to good quality work as opposed to videographers. It is simply a much more difficult medium to master.

Have you seen this? Cameras for Kids Some of the photos are truly excellent and worthy of National Geographic. Have you ever seen a program to let kids go out and make videos that's on par with this?

Bryan Daugherty · February 5th, 2009, 02:00 PM

Yang, regardless of whether I agree with you or not, thanks for sharing the link. There are some real gems in there.

Jeff Emery · February 5th, 2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

I think this the reason why there are many more photographers who are able to produce decent to good quality of work ...

That, and Photoshop.

Jeff

Noel Lising · February 5th, 2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

I think this the reason why there are many more photographers who are able to produce decent to good quality of work than there are videographers.

Law of statistics would come into place too, a photog can easily shoot 500-1000 shots a wedding, something decent would COME I agree... and Photoshop as Jeff mentioned.

February 4th, 2009, 05:40 PM	#41
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	I think that there are any number of reasons that photogs can act unprofessional. Some people are just unprofessional, no matter what they are doing. Some photogs (especially in my market) aren't used to working side-by-side with videographers, and are inexperienced in that way. Some photogs are just clueless in everything in life. Some photogs feel that their job is more important. This can stem from many things; ego, the fact that brides place more emphasis on photography (generally), the fact that photography has been around longer, the fact the maybe they haven't actually seen good videography. I've been toying with the idea of creating something to send out to a photographer before the wedding to sort of outline what I will be doing and how the photographer can accommodate me, as well as opening a dialogue for how I can help them. The wedding day is not the time to work out kinks. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

February 5th, 2009, 02:00 PM	#43
Bryan Daugherty Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lexington, Ky - USA Posts: 552	Yang, regardless of whether I agree with you or not, thanks for sharing the link. There are some real gems in there. __________________ 3x-HD1000u - Ikan 8000HD- custom i7 PC - Vegas Pro 13 and 11 64 bit - Premiere Pro CS4 - and a whole mess of other equipment...

February 3rd, 2009, 03:09 PM	#31
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	hmmmm, maybe I'll make a flyer "Why still photography is a waste of money". ;-) In my time and having started as a still guy a hundred years ago, after many conversations with a lot of photogs, it seems that a lot of the anomosity comes from the "old timers" who know that many years ago we really had to light the place up with some awesome lights (think sun guns at least) which of course we no longer have to do. But in their minds... Then you get the folks that have been around say 10-15 years and some of them feel threatened by those of us in the video end of the business. They feel that our being there is somehow going to take their business away. Maybe they should learn to be better shooters and people. Spend more time on their craft and less time bashing the videographers. It seems to me the newer folks in photography are quite open to video. Many of them at least the ones I have worked with realize just how helpful WE can be at a wedding. There have been times in the past a DJ is ready to do something and the photog is nowhere around and I'll try to keep the DJ from going ahead and try to fine the photog. Things like that. Heck I have a friend that hates the posed shots after the ceremony and asks me to set them up for him. I always laugh about that and tell him he should split his fee with me. We work very well together and have a good time with it. Fortunately 99% of the photogs I've worked with over the years have been really good and fun to work with. Don

February 3rd, 2009, 04:21 PM	#33
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Bottom line, more lenses = more complete capture of the day and the precious moments therein... doesn't matter whether the camera is still or video... Any studio so stupid as to spread FUD only discredits their own product... think about it, if they are so threatened as to have to badmouth someone else (or a whole industry, without regard to individual skilled practitioners) to get work, would YOU be comfortable hiring them? I'm smart enough to know that as hard as I try I won't nail EVERY shot every time (though multi-cam helps a LOT!)... having an extra cam angle or still to cut to is just good sense, and with HD, being able to pull the occasional still when needed is bonus points... If all the vendors remember that they are there for the B&G, and NOTHING should get in the way of doing the absolute best possible job for them, none of the "Pix vs. Flix" nonsense would even exist.

February 4th, 2009, 02:11 PM	#40
Matthew Craggs Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Welland, Ontario Posts: 311	Re: the "Why Videography is a waste" article, I vividly remember seeing the text from a document of the same name in a thread at photo.net. I do not know rather this is the same document, or an other one with the same name, but I do remember the sentiments were the same. The response from the other photographers was along the lines of Dave's posting in earlier in this thread: discrediting other vendors only makes you appear bitter, weak, and lacking confidence in your own product. I would never speak badly of any other photographer, videographer, or wedding professional. Can you imagine what you would think if you took your car to a mechanic and the first thing they said was, "You better bring your car to us because the guy down the road is horrible." Luckily, I have never had a bad experience with a photographer, young or old. But when I do a DVD compilation of blocked shots may be in order :)