Photo/Video Wars

Ken Diewert · February 2nd, 2009, 03:58 PM

Jeff,

I had to chime in... I agree. I've seen website samples from "pro" videogs in my area that I would be embarassed to give away, let alone charge $1500.00 for. There is a stigma - that many "pro" video guys are hacks with a camcorder, and don't deserve respect from seasoned photogs.

It's up to all of us to change that. I've been shooting for 20 years, and there's few things more difficult to shoot really well, where expectations are higher, than a wedding. This is my first season of 'embracing' weddings and I realize just how difficult it is to control all of the elements to make a wedding film look epic. (I don't even use the term 'wedding video', because of the stigma).

Josh Laronge · February 2nd, 2009, 04:39 PM

This "copyrighted poses" thing has popped up in the forum before. While I've never experienced a photog or videog stating this to me before. I would approach it in this order:

1. Say to the photographer, "You're hired to document the couples day as am I. Formal portraits are part of the day and I plan to record them."

2. Say to the photographer, "No problem, as a fellow artist I respect your copyright. However, I m going to need to get formal shots too so I will ask the bride at what point on her wedding day would she like to redo all of her formal poses for me because you have a problem with me shooting your poses."

3. Shoot the poses and let the photographer make a scene. Then when the photographer gives you the copyrighted poses line. Tell them, I'll shoot whatever I choose and you can feel free to sue me later for copyright infringement.

4. Use a monopod (preferably a heavy steel one) on the craniocaudal end of the photographer. Repeat as necessary.

Wedding videographers and photographers are vendors at one of a couple's most special days. The goal should be the same for both - giving the best possible product and service. Egos need to be set aside and everyone needs to work together. Peace and Love, Peace and Love!

Nicholas de Kock · February 2nd, 2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Emery

Do you think the reason many photographers have little respect for videographers is because most wedding videographers are crappy and do very poor work?

I do agree with you Jeff, however there is no shortage of Uncle Bob photographers either. A new breed of wedding film is being produced that is nothing short of brilliant. As for all the hacks out there, people are ignorantly paying them, I really don't care how stupid you are, there is no excuse for crappy work, not with Google around.

Ryan Morey · February 2nd, 2009, 06:54 PM

I just think that we are all working towards the same goal here.....To make the CLIENT happy.I treat everyone (wether an uncle Bob with a video camera or still-motion shows up) with the same respect that I'd like to be treated with.My 2 cents

Ryan

Lukas Siewior · February 2nd, 2009, 06:58 PM

I learned my lesson too when photog was trying to take over the session with the b&g in the park. Hopefully the bride told them to stop it because they want to shoot video with me as well. And they walked away from photog and I took them on a side to do my stuff as well. Assistant of photog was trying few more time to call them back to photoshoot but bride said that they don't want to. It made my day.

From now on, I make sure I tell the b&g that I am equaly important as the photog at the day of their wedding, as long as they want me to provide the services I offered. I also ask them to reserve more time for photosession because of two vendors.

There is still one more issue - photog's assistants running with lamps, flesh, lens, etc... Can't make them to walk behind the camera - someone has a solution for that?

If the photog is a big issue, I just inform the bride or groom about the situation, so she won't be surprised that her video is compromised because of the photog.

Warren Kawamoto · February 2nd, 2009, 07:45 PM

When the ceremony procession starts, everyone in the audience whips out their little cameras and stick their arms into the aisle, holding their camera at arm's length from their face and into my frame. I hate that.

I also hate it when the emcee announces the cake cutting, and invites everyone with cameras to come up to the cake and get a shot.

These situations are worse than professional photographers getting in the way for me.

Noel Lising · February 2nd, 2009, 08:17 PM

I hear you and the guest can basically roam around shooting pics while you are relegated to 1 or 2 spots in the church because the priest don't want you to be roaming around.

Bryan Daugherty · February 2nd, 2009, 11:25 PM

My experience on this has been mixed, my most recent wedding (2 wks ago) the photg was incredible and is a weekend warrior (I am going to bring him in on some of my other projects because of his talent and work ethic.) Last month, i had a wedding that had 4 pro phtogs and knew i was just gonna have to work around them. (I have several shots with elbows in the safe area.) But my worst was a couple of yrs ago. The photog showed up in tennis shoes, khakis, and a bright striped polo. He made inappropriate advances toward the bride and bridesmaids during the prewedding shoot and during the "now kiss the bride" he lept in front of my camera blocking me. Luckily it was a long kiss and I nearly snapped my quickrelease on my tripod going handheld to get the shot. he was all over my shoot but to jump in front of my camera during the kiss was over the line...

I seriously was tempted to use Josh's no. 4 option...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Laronge

...4. Use a monopod (preferably a heavy steel one) on the craniocaudal end of the photographer. Repeat as necessary.

Mark Holland · February 3rd, 2009, 09:23 AM

Wow, do these posts bring back some memories! Fortunately for me, there are very FEW memories like this. But, Josh's suggestion, "Use a monopod ... on the craniocaudal end of the photographer..." reminded me of a photog who almost got a smack. She'd been in front of my camera off and on, all day long, and it was the last dance of the night. I keep an old radio antenna in the kit for 'tapping' someone on the shoulder if I need their attention. Well, in light of her antics that day, I got the antenna out of the bag, and had it extended in my hand during the last dance shot...she never came close to me! I think she finally got the message and didn't want the smack across the legs that I had planned for her!

Now, after sharing a negative, let me say that 95% of the photographers around here are GREAT to work with. I treat them with respect, and get respect back from them.

Cheers!

Mark

Noel Lising · February 3rd, 2009, 10:22 AM

I get smacked around by the photographer all day even at home. Yeah she's the wife.

On a more serious note I get along very well with photogs, I always strike up a conversation, ask how long they've been doing it with this script:

1. 15 years- " Wow, you must be really good. I always think old school wedding photogs are the best, unlike now you own a DSLR and you're a photog". They usually warm up to you when they hear that.

2. Newbie- " That's cool. Fresh mind, fresh eye". They are easier to deal with as they ask you for referrals.

My 2 cents.

Ethan Cooper · February 3rd, 2009, 10:26 AM

It's been my experience that good photographers are easier to work with, whereas the less capable ones tend to be more problematic. I think it comes down to confidence. The inexperienced or just plain ordinary ones can't adapt on the fly to accomodate someone else shooting beside them. They are so focused on watching their settings, lining up the shot, getting the only angle they see, that they have no other space in their brain for looking out for the other guy. The good ones don't have to use nearly as much of their mental resources for these things and therefore can get the shot while looking out for someone else. They see multiple angles and can adjust on the fly to still get the shot and more importantly, they know it and don't spook easily when confronted with a challenge.

Same goes for videographers.

You also have to factor in that a certain % of the general population are just jerks and maybe you've encountered one of those people.

All in all most photographers are just fine, it's just the occasional bad one who sticks out in your mind. One of my most memorable ones spoke to us before the wedding to figure out how to could not be in each other's way. We in no uncertain terms told her where my wife would be set up for the ceremony, we even changed our location a little to accommodate her wishes, knowing that a mere 10 degree angle difference wouldn't affect the shot and would make everyone happy and what happens during the vows? She steps right in front of my wife's camera and remains parked there even after glancing back to see the camera, so my wife scoots over a little and wouldn't you know it, she does it again! Now you have to know my wife to fully understand what happened next, she's quiet, one of the most mild mannered people I've ever met. She taps the woman on the shoulder to let her know she's in the way and the photographer slides over a little only to get right back in the way a little later. After the ceremony my wife (all of 5'2" 100lbs) forcefully pulls the woman aside and lays into her, berating her for being either unprofessional, stupid, or both. I actually had to pull her away before it got worse. The poor photogs husband was assisting her that day and he didn't know what the heck to do, he just kinda exchanged a look with me as if it wasn't the first time this has happened.

Carl Wilky · February 3rd, 2009, 01:47 PM

I had a wedding a few years ago where the photographer and the assistant kept on walking and standing in my shot... i kept on asking them politely "please mind my shots and try to go around or duck in front of the camera" but the plead didn't give any results. They were arrogant and rude. The photographer told me right before she left that wedding videos are such a waste of money. I kept my calm and i just walked away.

A few months later i sent her company a compilation DVD with all the shots that she and her assistant walked into. I informed them that i was showing this video to all my customers and telling them to be carefully when hiring unprofessional photographers... (if people asked me who the photog. comp... was i felt i had to tell them). A few weeks later i got a call from the company apologizing for the photog's behavior and told me that she was let go for her lack of professionalism with several of their clients. I've been one of their referrals ever since.

I would agree with a lot of the comments already posted on this thread, the majority of the pros. photographers are easy and fun to work with. The issue that was mentioned earlier is that i believe that those unprofessional photographers do not take videography seriously. I had people tell me they didn't require video because their photographer included video in their packages for next to nothing. Needles to say the production quality was next to nothing but it goes to show you that for those hack photog. video is quite meaningless so why should they care when its another videographer on a shoot.

I've even seen some photographers stating in their contract that they would not shoot if there was videographer hired, i mean what the hell is that, who is the client here?

But all in all, 99.9% of the photographers out there are great to work with. If anything i sometimes strive on some of the creativity these artists come up with and incorporate them in my production which brings up the quality of my work one notch. Hell it's like having your own on location DP... for FREE!!!

Bryan Daugherty · February 3rd, 2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Wilky

...I've even seen some photographers stating in their contract that they would not shoot if there was videographer hired, i mean what the hell is that, who is the client here?...

Wow! That is beyond the pale. We have a local photo studio here that has a handout (for bridal shows) titled "why videography is a waste of money" and i thought that was bad but to put it in the contract is way over the line...

Dawn Brennan · February 3rd, 2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Wilky

A few months later i sent her company a compilation DVD with all the shots that she and her assistant walked into. I informed them that i was showing this video to all my customers and telling them to be carefully when hiring unprofessional photographers...

What a great idea... I have often thought about doing this, but never followed through. This might be what they need to realize the impact they are having on us. I wouldn't do this to anyone, but we have a few (one comes to mind in particular) that we work with a lot because they are in the same "budget range" as us, and I create something like you did for them.

Ethan Cooper · February 3rd, 2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Daugherty

We have a local photo studio here that has a handout (for bridal shows) titled "why videography is a waste of money"

Now that's funny. Wonder why they have an ax to grind?

February 2nd, 2009, 03:58 PM	#16
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	Jeff, I had to chime in... I agree. I've seen website samples from "pro" videogs in my area that I would be embarassed to give away, let alone charge $1500.00 for. There is a stigma - that many "pro" video guys are hacks with a camcorder, and don't deserve respect from seasoned photogs. It's up to all of us to change that. I've been shooting for 20 years, and there's few things more difficult to shoot really well, where expectations are higher, than a wedding. This is my first season of 'embracing' weddings and I realize just how difficult it is to control all of the elements to make a wedding film look epic. (I don't even use the term 'wedding video', because of the stigma). __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX

February 2nd, 2009, 06:54 PM	#19
Ryan Morey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wildwood Crest, NJ Posts: 140	I just think that we are all working towards the same goal here.....To make the CLIENT happy.I treat everyone (wether an uncle Bob with a video camera or still-motion shows up) with the same respect that I'd like to be treated with.My 2 cents Ryan __________________ www.rhmphotography.com What you talkin bout Willis?

February 3rd, 2009, 09:23 AM	#24
Mark Holland Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Central North Carolina (Raleigh, Durham, & surrounding areas) Posts: 301	Wow, do these posts bring back some memories! Fortunately for me, there are very FEW memories like this. But, Josh's suggestion, "Use a monopod ... on the craniocaudal end of the photographer..." reminded me of a photog who almost got a smack. She'd been in front of my camera off and on, all day long, and it was the last dance of the night. I keep an old radio antenna in the kit for 'tapping' someone on the shoulder if I need their attention. Well, in light of her antics that day, I got the antenna out of the bag, and had it extended in my hand during the last dance shot...she never came close to me! I think she finally got the message and didn't want the smack across the legs that I had planned for her! Now, after sharing a negative, let me say that 95% of the photographers around here are GREAT to work with. I treat them with respect, and get respect back from them. Cheers! Mark __________________ These are my own opinions, based on my own mistakes...

February 3rd, 2009, 10:26 AM	#26
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	It's been my experience that good photographers are easier to work with, whereas the less capable ones tend to be more problematic. I think it comes down to confidence. The inexperienced or just plain ordinary ones can't adapt on the fly to accomodate someone else shooting beside them. They are so focused on watching their settings, lining up the shot, getting the only angle they see, that they have no other space in their brain for looking out for the other guy. The good ones don't have to use nearly as much of their mental resources for these things and therefore can get the shot while looking out for someone else. They see multiple angles and can adjust on the fly to still get the shot and more importantly, they know it and don't spook easily when confronted with a challenge. Same goes for videographers. You also have to factor in that a certain % of the general population are just jerks and maybe you've encountered one of those people. All in all most photographers are just fine, it's just the occasional bad one who sticks out in your mind. One of my most memorable ones spoke to us before the wedding to figure out how to could not be in each other's way. We in no uncertain terms told her where my wife would be set up for the ceremony, we even changed our location a little to accommodate her wishes, knowing that a mere 10 degree angle difference wouldn't affect the shot and would make everyone happy and what happens during the vows? She steps right in front of my wife's camera and remains parked there even after glancing back to see the camera, so my wife scoots over a little and wouldn't you know it, she does it again! Now you have to know my wife to fully understand what happened next, she's quiet, one of the most mild mannered people I've ever met. She taps the woman on the shoulder to let her know she's in the way and the photographer slides over a little only to get right back in the way a little later. After the ceremony my wife (all of 5'2" 100lbs) forcefully pulls the woman aside and lays into her, berating her for being either unprofessional, stupid, or both. I actually had to pull her away before it got worse. The poor photogs husband was assisting her that day and he didn't know what the heck to do, he just kinda exchanged a look with me as if it wasn't the first time this has happened. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper

February 2nd, 2009, 04:39 PM	#17
Josh Laronge Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Jupiter, FL Posts: 241	This "copyrighted poses" thing has popped up in the forum before. While I've never experienced a photog or videog stating this to me before. I would approach it in this order: 1. Say to the photographer, "You're hired to document the couples day as am I. Formal portraits are part of the day and I plan to record them." 2. Say to the photographer, "No problem, as a fellow artist I respect your copyright. However, I m going to need to get formal shots too so I will ask the bride at what point on her wedding day would she like to redo all of her formal poses for me because you have a problem with me shooting your poses." 3. Shoot the poses and let the photographer make a scene. Then when the photographer gives you the copyrighted poses line. Tell them, I'll shoot whatever I choose and you can feel free to sue me later for copyright infringement. 4. Use a monopod (preferably a heavy steel one) on the craniocaudal end of the photographer. Repeat as necessary. Wedding videographers and photographers are vendors at one of a couple's most special days. The goal should be the same for both - giving the best possible product and service. Egos need to be set aside and everyone needs to work together. Peace and Love, Peace and Love!

February 2nd, 2009, 06:58 PM	#20
Lukas Siewior Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lyndhurst, NJ, USA Posts: 408	I learned my lesson too when photog was trying to take over the session with the b&g in the park. Hopefully the bride told them to stop it because they want to shoot video with me as well. And they walked away from photog and I took them on a side to do my stuff as well. Assistant of photog was trying few more time to call them back to photoshoot but bride said that they don't want to. It made my day. From now on, I make sure I tell the b&g that I am equaly important as the photog at the day of their wedding, as long as they want me to provide the services I offered. I also ask them to reserve more time for photosession because of two vendors. There is still one more issue - photog's assistants running with lamps, flesh, lens, etc... Can't make them to walk behind the camera - someone has a solution for that? If the photog is a big issue, I just inform the bride or groom about the situation, so she won't be surprised that her video is compromised because of the photog.

February 2nd, 2009, 07:45 PM	#21
Warren Kawamoto Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,435	When the ceremony procession starts, everyone in the audience whips out their little cameras and stick their arms into the aisle, holding their camera at arm's length from their face and into my frame. I hate that. I also hate it when the emcee announces the cake cutting, and invites everyone with cameras to come up to the cake and get a shot. These situations are worse than professional photographers getting in the way for me.

February 2nd, 2009, 08:17 PM	#22
Noel Lising Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 789	I hear you and the guest can basically roam around shooting pics while you are relegated to 1 or 2 spots in the church because the priest don't want you to be roaming around.

February 3rd, 2009, 10:22 AM	#25
Noel Lising Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 789	I get smacked around by the photographer all day even at home. Yeah she's the wife. On a more serious note I get along very well with photogs, I always strike up a conversation, ask how long they've been doing it with this script: 1. 15 years- " Wow, you must be really good. I always think old school wedding photogs are the best, unlike now you own a DSLR and you're a photog". They usually warm up to you when they hear that. 2. Newbie- " That's cool. Fresh mind, fresh eye". They are easier to deal with as they ask you for referrals. My 2 cents.

February 3rd, 2009, 01:47 PM	#27
Carl Wilky Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Montéal, Canada Posts: 115	I had a wedding a few years ago where the photographer and the assistant kept on walking and standing in my shot... i kept on asking them politely "please mind my shots and try to go around or duck in front of the camera" but the plead didn't give any results. They were arrogant and rude. The photographer told me right before she left that wedding videos are such a waste of money. I kept my calm and i just walked away. A few months later i sent her company a compilation DVD with all the shots that she and her assistant walked into. I informed them that i was showing this video to all my customers and telling them to be carefully when hiring unprofessional photographers... (if people asked me who the photog. comp... was i felt i had to tell them). A few weeks later i got a call from the company apologizing for the photog's behavior and told me that she was let go for her lack of professionalism with several of their clients. I've been one of their referrals ever since. I would agree with a lot of the comments already posted on this thread, the majority of the pros. photographers are easy and fun to work with. The issue that was mentioned earlier is that i believe that those unprofessional photographers do not take videography seriously. I had people tell me they didn't require video because their photographer included video in their packages for next to nothing. Needles to say the production quality was next to nothing but it goes to show you that for those hack photog. video is quite meaningless so why should they care when its another videographer on a shoot. I've even seen some photographers stating in their contract that they would not shoot if there was videographer hired, i mean what the hell is that, who is the client here? But all in all, 99.9% of the photographers out there are great to work with. If anything i sometimes strive on some of the creativity these artists come up with and incorporate them in my production which brings up the quality of my work one notch. Hell it's like having your own on location DP... for FREE!!!