Cant decide which super 8 camera to buy

[Tom Hardwick]

The bride needs to know

1) That she won't get the original footage
2) That it will be shot mute
3) That it will add greatly to the package cost (stock, processing and transfer)
4) That a lot of viewers will wonder what the hell's happened to their TV
5) That it probably won't be in 16:9
6) That the colours and sharpness won't match the rest of the film

tom.

[Richard Alvarez]

Tom makes some interesting points. The most important thing is that the bride SEE what she is going to get. She needs to understand exactly what to expect from the footage. This means someone selling super 8 is going to have to have a demo reel to let them see what they are buying. It's no good to say "Here is what someone else has done, I think I can do that."

"Not getting the orgininal footage" - Well, I don't know about that. You COULD sell them the original tapes of all the footage you shoot I suppose. Sure, you can sell them the stock - if they want it. Most people get their copies of the final product, not the original tape or filmstock. Hell, you COULD offer to shoot reversal and turn over the original stock so they can thread up dad's projector and watch it in the garage - if that's what the client wants.

Shot "mute" - Well, sure the camera is not going to capture sound to the film stock. Doesn't mean the scenes will be 'mute' when they are presented. It just means you'll have to shoot double system, OR indicate that those scenes will have a wild track laid behind them. This is fine for a music montage or such. Again, the photographer has to be able to demonstrate what is possible.

"Add greatly to the cost of the package" - Many 'add ons' add to the cost of a package. Extra shooting, extra crew, extra trasportation, extra copies - Adding super 8, will be another 'add on'. If they want it, they can buy it. The more you shoot, the more it will cost. Its up to the Videographer to scale the package.

"Probably won't be in 16:9" - May or may not be in 16:9. It certainly is available, again it depends on how the photographer packages the product. Cameras that shoot 16:9 are available. HD scans are available. Many different filmstocks are available.

"That the color and sharpness won't match the rest of the film" - Looked at a lot of HD super 8 footage have you? Wow, I saw my first footage on a 42 inch screen a few weeks ago, and was completely blow away by the images. Color saturation and lattitude of the fujii stock was far superior to any 'film preset' I've seen on a prosumer camera. Sure, there was some grain there, but it was more like 16mm than Super 8. Remember, the filmstock is far superior to the old stuff from the 70's. Though, as others have pointed out, KODACHROME has an amazing quality, that holds up over half a century. Too bad its gone. But the new Vision stocks are particularly impressive.



Look, shooting film is a different skillset than shooting video. Its going to require some investment in time AND money for someone to get into it, and feel comfortable enough to offer it as an additional product. How much? Hard to say.


It is POSSIBLE to buy a decent camera for a hundred bucks IF you know what you're looking at. I've got a half a dozen super8 cameras I used to teach film with. I would buy them at thrift stores, take them home, cleanup the battery terminals and fire them up. I had a 'test roll' of film. I'd shoot a couple of feet in this camera, swap out the cartridge, put it in another camera , test that one, and so on. Get the film back and project it - watching for exposure and weave/registration in the gate.

The quality cameras from the 70's hold up remarkably well. If you want to buy a refurbished camera from the people who rebuild and regate them to 16:9, then you know you're good to go from the outset. You either have to KNOW film cameras, or pay someone who does.


As others have pointed out - there are plenty of 'old film' filters available in most NLE's if all you want is the nostalgic look of damaged film footage. Like sepia toned still photos, it evokes a particular feeling. May not want the whole wedding package done in Sepia, its just another 'look'.

Super 8 film, properly exposed and shot creatively - IS FILM. FILM has a different 'look' from video. Different filmstocks have different looks as well. People spend enormous ammounts of time trying to get that organic 'film look' (Aside from Depth of Field) - and nothing quite matches the look like actual film.


Its just another tool, another product to offer. If you're not good at shooting it, if your clients aren't asking for it, if you don't have/can't work out the workflow - don't do it.

But don't be surprised if someone else does.

(Disclaimer: I don't work for any of the super 8 processing and transfer facilities - I don't even shoot weddings. I'm just a guy who has a lot of super 8 experience, and enjoy shooting it.)

[Tom Hardwick]

Originally Posted by Richard Alvarez

"That the color and sharpness won't match the rest of the film" - Looked at a lot of HD super 8 footage have you? Wow, I saw my first footage on a 42 inch screen a few weeks ago, and was completely blow away by the images.

I'm with you all the way Richard - I think you took my 'won't match the rest of the film' in a derogatory way, but I was saying quite the opposite. My Super-8 blows up to 6' wide easy, and looks good.

Of course the couple could be sold (given?) the original processed reels of film, but presumably they'll be watching a transfer of that film onto their DVD.

Now a lot of the 'film look' has to do with projection, where the progressive scan original was probably shot with a 180 degree shutter at 18 fps. Projection is generally at 18 fps but at 54 Hz (3 bladed shutter) and this look is certainly lost when viewing off DVD into a plasma or LCD TV.

And I said 'shot mute' in case the couple thought they could have lip-sync Super-8 at the touch of a button. Of course it is possible, as is anamorphic shooting. It's just money and experience.

tom.

[Robert Bec]

Originally Posted by Richard Alvarez

If you want to buy a refurbished camera from the people who rebuild and regate them to 16:9, then you know you're good to go from the outset.

Thanks for info Richard very entertaining where can i buy a refurbished rebuilt to 16:9 camera

Rob

[Christopher Glavan]

yeah where?

[Richard Alvarez]

Pro8 in Burbank sells refurbished Super 8 Cameras with custom 16:9 gates on them. I think they call it "Max8" or something. PRO8MM | BURBANK CA | CAMERAS | FILM | LAB | SCANNING

If you do a little googling, and some digging around on the Super 8 forums (yes, they exist) you can find various places that will modify Super 8 Camera gates. It's an expensive retrofit - but if you want it, you can have it. Another solution is to shoot the really fine grained negative stock, then transfer in HD and crop to fit in post... or during the transfer.http://www.pro8mm.com/pdf/taking_super8_to_hidef.pdf

At some point, there is a 'cross-over' in cost benefit and you should think about shooting S16 though... so due dilligence is in order.

Okay, found a link on the "Max8" modifications - http://www.pro8mm.com/pdf/weva_shoot...widescreen.pdf

[Chris P. Jones]

Originally Posted by Robert Bec

So where would be the safest place to buy a super 8 camera from i guess ebay is always a risk

I get mine from Du-All Camera and Super 8 Camera Shop.

jones

[Robert Bec]

Originally Posted by Chris P. Jones

I get mine from Du-All Camera and Super 8 Camera Shop.

jones

which cameras did you buy?

[Jeff Kellam]

Originally Posted by Richard Alvarez

"Probably won't be in 16:9" - May or may not be in 16:9. It certainly is available, again it depends on how the photographer packages the product. Cameras that shoot 16:9 are available. HD scans are available. Many different filmstocks are available..

Dude, 8mm is 8mm, you are going to have black bars at the sides. You could crop the digital capture in the NLE, but what's the point?

Originally Posted by Richard Alvarez

"That the color and sharpness won't match the rest of the film" - Looked at a lot of HD super 8 footage have you? Wow, I saw my first footage on a 42 inch screen a few weeks ago, and was completely blow away by the images. Color saturation and lattitude of the fujii stock was far superior to any 'film preset' I've seen on a prosumer camera. Sure, there was some grain there, but it was more like 16mm than Super 8. Remember, the filmstock is far superior to the old stuff from the 70's. Though, as others have pointed out, KODACHROME has an amazing quality, that holds up over half a century. Too bad its gone. But the new Vision stocks are particularly impressive..)

What are you smoking? The best 8mm ever shot looks like a stomped turd compared to a good HD camera.

You saw your first footage a few weeks ago? I shot 8mm in the 70s and 80s and was happy to throw those cameras in the trash bin 20 years ago. I captured all my 8mm stock to HD a few years ago. It's great stuff looking at stomped turds in HD.

[Richard Alvarez]

Dude,

Yes, you can get the gate recut to "Max8" - No dude, it won't have letterboxing dude, it will be 16:9.

Dude, did you LOOK at the links?

Dude, I saw my first FUJICHROME and VISION200 NEGATIVE transferred at HD last week dude, not old 8 or super8 reversal stock transferred. Not the same thing dude.

You didn't shoot Vision 200 negative stock in the 70's, did you dude?

I'm guessing you've SEEN the Fuji 40 shot at 16:9 and transferred on HD right?

Or are you smoking something instead of reading posts and checking links dude.

Yeah, I was shooting film in the 70's too dude. For a television station.

[Christopher Glavan]

ownt.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the process is for converting an 8mm gate to correctly shoot 16:9? I'm sure it's a high-tech process I shouldn't tackle, I'd just like to know what's involved in case I grow big enough cojones to attempt a DIY project on the s8 I don't even own yet.

=)

[Tom Hardwick]

I certainly wouldn't attempt to modify the Super-8 camera gate Chris as the v'finder feed is ahead of the gate (a prism within the lens elements usually) and this will still be 4:3.

Much better to mask the v'finder to show the safe image area. You'll lose 25% of the Super-8 emulsion area, but the aspect ratio will look far nicer. Of course the film you shoot will still be 4:3, so you'll certainly need to mask the projector's gate, or only have the 16:9 rectangle transferred to video.

tom.

[Richard Alvarez]

Chris the white papers on the Max8 modifications are in the links I provided. These modified Super8 cameras shoot a 16x9 frame, and the transfer is accomplished in house in telecine. This would NOT be acceptable for shooting and projecting on an old super 8 projector, as the projection gates are - as Tom mentioned - not going to match.

The use of Super 8 or Max8 footage is going to be a stylistic choice. It's not for everyone's workflow. Its much more xpensive and demanding than shooting video. (It is, after all is said and done - FILM.)

But if you want to incorporate it - if your clients are asking for it - (And apparently there is some demand in the Wedding Biz) then it's important to understand the cost/benefits of retrofitting with rebuilt/modified Max8 gear with the new NEGATIVE film stocks, having those negatives professonally color corrected and transfered to HD - versus grabbing an old camera at a yard sale, throwing in a roll of reversal, and videotaping the results off of your grandfather's torn up and yellowed antique screen.

And the difference is HUGE.

(EDIT) - FYI if you search the forums for DIY telecine, you'll find posts about HOW to shoot footage directly off a screen.(Many of them by me) It IS possible, and you can get some interesting results - but it's NOT the optimum way. There are a number of transfer options available, make sure you know which one the transfer house is using. This can vary from - quite literally - shooting off of an old screen - to rank/cintel - to wetgate - to frame by frame digital capture with OPEN GATE technology, so the entire frame, edge to edge is captured. Do your due diligence.

[Jeff Kellam]

Dudes:

For anyone shooting Panasonic cameras, there are some tutorials and scene files available to get an old film look from the cameras on the Panasonic Pro website.

If you already have the camera, it's an easy option. You could undercrank down to to 18FPS and the scene file will give you the look. You would have to add any blemishing in post.

Making your captures from your current equipment look like film seems a lot easier than getting another camera and learning and lugging it.

[Christopher Glavan]

Are you talking about panasonic video cameras? I wasn't aware you could undercrank a video camera to 18fps. Maybe I missed this feature on a camera or two??