Multicam Editing - What's your method in post?

Paul R Johnson · October 10th, 2008, 12:20 PM

I do multicam on Premiere Pro all the time.Most of my stuff is music played live in venues, so I use three or sometime four DV cameras.

In PP3 it's all quite easy. Just bring in each camera onto a separate track and then sync them up. I usually use a visual hit point - drummers arms are great, and look, not listen to the audio waveform. I usually shoot with room sound on ch 2 and a radio mic receiver from the audio mixer on ch 1. Just zoom in, slide the audio tracks (still linked to the video) until they align and turn on all the audio tracks and see if they sound ok. Slipped tracks by a long way mean a positive echo, closer and it turns into a 'phasey' sound, and when spot on - turning on and off the individual audio tracks makes little difference.

Next is to create a new sequence and make it multicam - pp3 can handle up to 4 cameras. Turn on the multicam monitor and your four sources appear on the left and you hit record, then play and cut the cameras live with the 1-2-3-4 keys. Once done, you can go back and edit the edit! This just means trimming the points you cut at - I always hit the wrong camera, or cut just too late, and it's easy to repair. The only pain for me is these shows are two one hour halves, so the cut is in real time, then the tweaking - making a two hour show take at least a day - but adding the time to ingest the tapes, more like 2!

When I was doing the FCP/AVID/PP choice I spent most of a day at an exhibition going around the three manufacturers, and multi-cam on PP impressed me.

Jeff Mack · October 10th, 2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Harjo

Final Cut pro has a multicam function that I never really spent enough time to figure out. ...

You need to read the manual. Once you learn how to set up a multiclip, you'll wonder why you haven't used it sooner!

Jeff

Glen Elliott · October 14th, 2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Harjo

This more of just curiosity... Final Cut pro has a multicam function that I never really spent enough time to figure out. I use two cams. So I just shrink the two cams into the canvas So I can see both of them synced at the same time) and cut out what I don't need and then expand them back to 100% to make the final product. Those of you that do this know what I mean. Does anyone actually use Final Cut Pro's multicam function? What about you other guys and gals that use different editing suites? What's your method? Again just curious...

I'd say a good 75% of what I do with each and every wedding is edited as Multiclips in FCP. 3-camera ceremonies, and 2 to 3 camera receptions. The only thing that I cut without making multiclips are Pre-ceremony, Post-Ceremony, Highlights, and Trailers.

Regarding workflow- one thing that is never discussed is how to handle a drop-out (particularly an HDV drop-out) in a long file like a wedding ceremony. Typically an HDV drop-out manifests itself as simply a break in the file with 4-7 seconds of missing footage. When there is a gap or non-contiguous clip you have to re-sync the footage AFTER the error. Problem is FCP won't accept nested files into Multiclips- causing me to do lots of Exporting "Quicktime Movie" and re-importing the "stiched" file to be used for the Multiclip.

Anyone else have a different and/or better workflow...short of a snide 'go tapeless' answer. ;)

Dave Blackhurst · October 14th, 2008, 11:13 PM

Uh, go tapeless... <wink>. I know it's been a nice switch for me, but then again I never had a dropout problem with HDV - maybe you should try a different brand of tape?

For me, it's shoot 4 cams for ceremony, start all about the same time, let 'em run, try to adjust zooms by running about as needed and still get the "manned cam" footage. For stage events 2-3 cameras, same approach.

Now that I'm tapeless, it's... quick, dump the footage, review it briefly, then drop the 4 clips onto the timeline in Vegas 8. I use VASST infinicam, although I've played with the built in multicam feature a bit - infinicam works 'cause I'm used to it, and already have it anyway!

Sync up the 4 cams - I look for a sound spike or just visually match waveforms for rough sync, then look for movements caught on all cameras to tighten it down. If I have an iRiver or other audio source, sync that too... Someone here mentioned panning the audio hard left and right to help sync the audio - a good tip!

On the rare occaision I had a camera drop out or a tape swap or whatever, I just manually re-sync the broken off sections, leaving a gap on that track - I try to avoid it if at all possible...

Once I'm happy with that, I save a version to fall back on in case I goof up the sync, and go through picking the best cam angles (with fingers crossed that there's at least one at all times!). Then it's fine tuning the cuts/dissolves, cover any gaps or smooth out flow with clever time remapping or slo-mo, cut out all but the best audio tracks, sweeten any audio as needed (boost low voices, cut extraneous noises), add CC if needed (finding it's not needed with the SR11/CX12!), titles/credits... Render once, toss on a DVD, watch it, and log anything I missed. Second pass and the ceremony "documentary" should be "perfect"... then go mix reception/extras/interviews/toasts and final the DVD.

I'm not quite to SDE speed yet, but I'm shooting for a very high speed (1-2 weeks) delivery.

Glen Elliott · October 15th, 2008, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Uh, go tapeless... <wink>. I know it's been a nice switch for me, but then again I never had a dropout problem with HDV - maybe you should try a different brand of tape?

I always find it interesting when people say they NEVER get drop-outs. I think either they don't shoot enough long wedding ceremonies, or they have them and don't notice it. Granted you didn't say you never get them but rather you don't have a drop-out "problem". I wouldn't say it's a problem but an inevitable fact that you WILL...ocassionally encounter them. It's not often and I almost never see them on tapes with lots of starts and stops. Usually long continuous shooting (ie ceremonies).

I started out using $7 Sony Excellence tape stock. Had a few dropouts and said screw it and went down to the $2 Sony Premium tape- I've never been happier saving $5 per tape with the exact same performance (an occasional dropout ever few tapes or so).

Richard Wakefield · October 15th, 2008, 08:29 AM

hi glen, when you say 'drop out', what is that exactly? frames that are dropped, which makes the multi-cam go out of sync? touch wood i've never ever had that.

but if you mean that really weird thing where you get one random red frame, then yes i've had that a couple of times...thankfully never during a multi-cam moment!

Joel Peregrine · October 15th, 2008, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen Elliott

Problem is FCP won't accept nested files into Multiclips- causing me to do lots of Exporting "Quicktime Movie" and re-importing the "stiched" file to be used for the Multiclip.

Anyone else have a different and/or better workflow...short of a snide 'go tapeless' answer. ;)

Read my guide in this post - there is a workaround that will save you drive space and time. Basically it involves filling the gaps in the camera angle with real footage so you can export a reference movie that multicam will accept. The easiest option would be if multicam accepted nests from within FCP, but as you know that doesn't work. Maybe in FCP 7...

Glen Elliott · October 15th, 2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel Peregrine

Read my guide in this post - there is a workaround that will save you drive space and time. Basically it involves filling the gaps in the camera angle with real footage so you can export a reference movie that multicam will accept. The easiest option would be if multicam accepted nests from within FCP, but as you know that doesn't work. Maybe in FCP 7...

Hey Joel. Yeah that's basically what I already do- fill the gaps with slugs then export either a self or non-self contained quicktime movie.

Dave Blackhurst · October 15th, 2008, 08:52 PM

While I've had good luck with Sony premiums tape stock as well, I did have issues with one camera that wouldn't track Sony tapes for anything - had to use Panasonic tape in that till I got rid of it...

I noticed dropouts with the HV20 I tested, but can't say as my Sony cams ever gave me any grief, other than one nearing the end of it's useful life...

You are probably correct about the length of the clip being a potential issue, although this raises the question of whether the dropouts are on the tape or in the ingest? I know I had a lot of trouble at one point where every tape I ingested seemed to show dropped frames on the log of the ingest but the tape was AOK when reviewed, don't even remember what the fix was, but probably a driver update or reinstall. Just a thought...

Joel Peregrine · October 21st, 2008, 10:11 AM

Hi Dave,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

You are probably correct about the length of the clip being a potential issue, although this raises the question of whether the dropouts are on the tape or in the ingest? I know I had a lot of trouble at one point where every tape I ingested seemed to show dropped frames on the log of the ingest but the tape was AOK when reviewed, don't even remember what the fix was, but probably a driver update or reinstall. Just a thought...

I occasionally have the same problem - long captures keep quitting with timecode error messages but the clip is pristine. In those cases I use Capture Magic:

Big Mug Software Introduction

It just plows throw whatever you throw at it and gets it captured. No stops, errors or sync issues. You can't log and capture, but for troublesome tapes its a lifesaver.

Chris Christensen · December 22nd, 2008, 10:49 AM

Multicam editing in FCP is one of those things that is sooooooo easy you will sort of look back at your time wasted on two tracks in the timeline. Also if you know how to utilize the roll tool and the "E" command to move your edit, you will whip through a project in no time! Just make sure you have some way of syncing your cameras (ie, clapboard), but I know its tough at a wedding... i would use audio in that case.

Warren Kawamoto · December 22nd, 2008, 11:49 AM

I'm using Edius for multicam editing. I once edited 8 hdv cameras at once, editing was really easy! All 8 cameras show up on the screen, sync them up, play, and just click on the pic you want as it's playing back on the timeline. Just like cutting via live switcher. If a mistake is made, simply stop and back it up a few seconds and continue again. At the end, you can consolidate all the video tracks down to 1, add dissolves or effects between cuts or all cuts, etc... pretty easily.

The only downside of doing 8 hdv tracks at once is that playback is sluggish and sometimes stutters when editing, but that doesn't affect the final product.

December 22nd, 2008, 10:49 AM	#26
Chris Christensen Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 29	Multicam editing in FCP is one of those things that is sooooooo easy you will sort of look back at your time wasted on two tracks in the timeline. Also if you know how to utilize the roll tool and the "E" command to move your edit, you will whip through a project in no time! Just make sure you have some way of syncing your cameras (ie, clapboard), but I know its tough at a wedding... i would use audio in that case. __________________ Chris/Final Cut Pro Certified/Apple is my life. Canon XH-A1, SGpro

October 10th, 2008, 12:20 PM	#16
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	I do multicam on Premiere Pro all the time.Most of my stuff is music played live in venues, so I use three or sometime four DV cameras. In PP3 it's all quite easy. Just bring in each camera onto a separate track and then sync them up. I usually use a visual hit point - drummers arms are great, and look, not listen to the audio waveform. I usually shoot with room sound on ch 2 and a radio mic receiver from the audio mixer on ch 1. Just zoom in, slide the audio tracks (still linked to the video) until they align and turn on all the audio tracks and see if they sound ok. Slipped tracks by a long way mean a positive echo, closer and it turns into a 'phasey' sound, and when spot on - turning on and off the individual audio tracks makes little difference. Next is to create a new sequence and make it multicam - pp3 can handle up to 4 cameras. Turn on the multicam monitor and your four sources appear on the left and you hit record, then play and cut the cameras live with the 1-2-3-4 keys. Once done, you can go back and edit the edit! This just means trimming the points you cut at - I always hit the wrong camera, or cut just too late, and it's easy to repair. The only pain for me is these shows are two one hour halves, so the cut is in real time, then the tweaking - making a two hour show take at least a day - but adding the time to ingest the tapes, more like 2! When I was doing the FCP/AVID/PP choice I spent most of a day at an exhibition going around the three manufacturers, and multi-cam on PP impressed me.

October 14th, 2008, 11:13 PM	#19
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Uh, go tapeless... <wink>. I know it's been a nice switch for me, but then again I never had a dropout problem with HDV - maybe you should try a different brand of tape? For me, it's shoot 4 cams for ceremony, start all about the same time, let 'em run, try to adjust zooms by running about as needed and still get the "manned cam" footage. For stage events 2-3 cameras, same approach. Now that I'm tapeless, it's... quick, dump the footage, review it briefly, then drop the 4 clips onto the timeline in Vegas 8. I use VASST infinicam, although I've played with the built in multicam feature a bit - infinicam works 'cause I'm used to it, and already have it anyway! Sync up the 4 cams - I look for a sound spike or just visually match waveforms for rough sync, then look for movements caught on all cameras to tighten it down. If I have an iRiver or other audio source, sync that too... Someone here mentioned panning the audio hard left and right to help sync the audio - a good tip! On the rare occaision I had a camera drop out or a tape swap or whatever, I just manually re-sync the broken off sections, leaving a gap on that track - I try to avoid it if at all possible... Once I'm happy with that, I save a version to fall back on in case I goof up the sync, and go through picking the best cam angles (with fingers crossed that there's at least one at all times!). Then it's fine tuning the cuts/dissolves, cover any gaps or smooth out flow with clever time remapping or slo-mo, cut out all but the best audio tracks, sweeten any audio as needed (boost low voices, cut extraneous noises), add CC if needed (finding it's not needed with the SR11/CX12!), titles/credits... Render once, toss on a DVD, watch it, and log anything I missed. Second pass and the ceremony "documentary" should be "perfect"... then go mix reception/extras/interviews/toasts and final the DVD. I'm not quite to SDE speed yet, but I'm shooting for a very high speed (1-2 weeks) delivery.

October 15th, 2008, 08:29 AM	#21
Richard Wakefield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Surrey, UK Posts: 680	hi glen, when you say 'drop out', what is that exactly? frames that are dropped, which makes the multi-cam go out of sync? touch wood i've never ever had that. but if you mean that really weird thing where you get one random red frame, then yes i've had that a couple of times...thankfully never during a multi-cam moment!

October 15th, 2008, 08:52 PM	#24
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	While I've had good luck with Sony premiums tape stock as well, I did have issues with one camera that wouldn't track Sony tapes for anything - had to use Panasonic tape in that till I got rid of it... I noticed dropouts with the HV20 I tested, but can't say as my Sony cams ever gave me any grief, other than one nearing the end of it's useful life... You are probably correct about the length of the clip being a potential issue, although this raises the question of whether the dropouts are on the tape or in the ingest? I know I had a lot of trouble at one point where every tape I ingested seemed to show dropped frames on the log of the ingest but the tape was AOK when reviewed, don't even remember what the fix was, but probably a driver update or reinstall. Just a thought...

December 22nd, 2008, 11:49 AM	#27
Warren Kawamoto Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,435	I'm using Edius for multicam editing. I once edited 8 hdv cameras at once, editing was really easy! All 8 cameras show up on the screen, sync them up, play, and just click on the pic you want as it's playing back on the timeline. Just like cutting via live switcher. If a mistake is made, simply stop and back it up a few seconds and continue again. At the end, you can consolidate all the video tracks down to 1, add dissolves or effects between cuts or all cuts, etc... pretty easily. The only downside of doing 8 hdv tracks at once is that playback is sluggish and sometimes stutters when editing, but that doesn't affect the final product.