Are We Artists?

David Tamés · July 27th, 2008, 07:18 AM

Bill,

To your point, I personally don't think anyone should (but they can, and it's their right, we still live in a mostly open society) look down on a whole genre or category of visual expression. There are cheesy commercials (e.g. chickens selling used cars), and there are commercials that have become artistic classics (e.g. Apple's 1984 commercial) just as there are cheesy wedding videos and those that achieve a level of artistic (whatever that is, another thread) expression. And so on and so forth. And the labels of "cheese" and "art" are all in the mind of the beholder.

Steve House · July 27th, 2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick Haensler

..
One more thing.....Trash the Dress???? What the $#^&????

I have an idea. Send me the dress after the wedding to put on my new web site "Dresses for Trash". I will auction it off and use the money to help third world families living in trash dumps improve their lives.

Freakin' trash the dress....gimme a a freakin break.....although, from an artistic point of view, this could very well be the highest level of artistic expression in wedding videography.......NAHHHH.....

I'm with you! What an example of conspicuous wasteful consumption run rampant - just the thing for a couple to start off their married life doing together! ROFLMAO

Bill Grant · July 27th, 2008, 10:45 AM

Point is exactly David that all of us out here making a living from doing video at whatever level add value to the business. I have friends in the business that tell me all the time I should not have a link to my wedding oriented site attached to my corporate site, or even tell my corporate clients I do weddings. I have found no actual bias in the workplace, only with other video producers. All I'm saying is that none of us are really elevating what we do as a whole except producing great work. And while there is cheesy wedding work out there, there is competing cheesy non-wedding work. Neither of us have the bragging rights ala 1984 apple commercial or even the mac vs pc stuff that's running now. The vast majority of us arguing the point are just folks out here trying to make a living. It is moot all the way around is what i mean. Noone should feel the right to be be superior by genre.
Bill

Oleg Kalyan · July 27th, 2008, 11:23 AM

Interesting, I've had a lengthy conversation with world top 10, W.P.P.I. the most awarded wedding photographer, Jerry Ghionis, we talked about many things, remember him telling me, that setting up your photography business... can be Art! :)

What do you think, my brain starts to melt : )

Matthew Ebenezer · July 27th, 2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Grant

I have friends in the business that tell me all the time I should not have a link to my wedding oriented site attached to my corporate site, or even tell my corporate clients I do weddings. I have found no actual bias in the workplace, only with other video producers.
Bill

That's interesting Bill. Everyone's geography and demographics are different I guess. In my area I've found it's the opposite - both wedding videos and local TV commercials have a pretty bad rep.

It's almost like I can't tell brides that we make local TV commercials - and I can't tell businesses that I do wedding videos because of the poor perception people in my area have of both mediums :(

Matthew Ebenezer · July 27th, 2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Kalyan

Interesting, I've had a lengthy conversation with world top 10, W.P.P.I. the most awarded wedding photographer, Jerry Ghionis, we talked about many things, remember him telling me, that setting up your photography business... can be Art! :)

What do you think, my brain starts to melt : )

Hey Oleg,

Off topic: Jerry Ghionis is a legend! I heard him speak at a conference here in Australia and he was excellent! And I'd say his photography is certainly art.

Oleg Kalyan · July 28th, 2008, 12:28 AM

OFF topic,
Matthew I agree, Gerry is an artist in pure definition of this word, yet he is a great business man! Is there a contradiction? I don't think so, he doesn't stop to make amazing photographs, award winning albums, at the same time, he travels around the world 3-4 months a year with seminars, and he is booked all the rest of the time!

John Moon · July 28th, 2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Emery

You can call yourself a Grilled Cheese Sandwich if you want, but that doesn't make you one.

If you think you're an artist... then you're not. If others think you're an artist... then you are.

Personally, I don't care what anyone calls me, as long as the check clears.

Jeff

I have to agree with this. We never call ourselves artists but many times we have had comments from clients and guests at a reception tell us that our work has an artistic quality to it. I feel most like an artist when I take the raw footage, color grade it and piece it together.

David Tamés · July 28th, 2008, 11:54 AM

This thread has provided some food for thought. Thank you all. In summary, my reflections from this thread is that "Artist" is such a loaded term.

Wiktionary defines the noun 'artist' as follows: 1. A person who creates art, 2. A person who creates art as an occupation, 3. A person who is skilled at some activity. Given definition #3 we are all artists.

But even if we are, do we want to use the term? Meaning #3 implies to some clients you're not necessarily going to deliver what they want, since many people perceive "Artist = personal expression," while, "Professional X = delivering the goods," where X may be videographer, videomaker, mediamaker or any other term you like. The words we choose to describe ourselves with tell people a lot about ourselves, and the words people use to describe us and our work tells us a lot about them and the preconceptions they have acquired over the years, and along with that, something about how our work is perceived. Usually the term artist is used as compliment (great skill, wonderful vision, unique perspective) but other times, it implies someone who is more interested in expression that basic communication. Words are interesting things.

Travis Cossel · July 28th, 2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

I'm with you! What an example of conspicuous wasteful consumption run rampant - just the thing for a couple to start off their married life doing together! ROFLMAO

I'm not sure how you're missing the point here. The bride has already purchased the dress to wear for her wedding. She will very likely never wear the thing again for the rest of her life. So why not do one more shoot with it and get some additional use out of the purchase? To be honest, I've seen some absolutely incredible and stunning photographs and video from TTD sessions that you could never get on the wedding day.

Steven Davis · July 28th, 2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

Unless you haven't noticed, there is excellent work being done here, much different from what was happening around you in the 80's. (even if it might not be art)

Something tells me that you have a red zipper jacket. :]

As for the topic, I think of event videography as art. Because if you as a videographer can connect with your client, mold the video to match their dreams and personalities, then that takes a creative expression. If I show up, hit the record button, then burn it to DVD, then I'm a video producer. That's my two cents. It is similiar, and I say similar to an incredible photo, the photographer either has the eye for the money shot or can somehow draw it out of the person being photographed.

In an age of self expression and individual tastes, this is where emphasising the artistry of video production will change mindsets. Then I can get rid of my neon orange shoe laces :}

Oleg Kalyan · July 28th, 2008, 10:59 PM

"mold the video to match their dreams and personalities"
"Photographer has an eye for the money shot or can somehow draw it out of the person being photographed"

Two very important distinctions,
one is to create, illustrate, document something that the couple may think, imagine, assume!...

On the other hand, we as creative individuals behind the camera dream up, visualize, create a concept, a mood, distinguish what is "divine and mundane", not always translate what is, but what it could be, if it would be a particular (yet limited, by the means we have "art form"

IMO, that were the term "art" can signify particular meaning,
on a crossroad of what is (wedding as a particular event) and our creative imagination!

Peter Szilveszter · July 29th, 2008, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Ebenezer

That's interesting Bill. Everyone's geography and demographics are different I guess. In my area I've found it's the opposite - both wedding videos and local TV commercials have a pretty bad rep.

It's almost like I can't tell brides that we make local TV commercials - and I can't tell businesses that I do wedding videos because of the poor perception people in my area have of both mediums :(

second that!

I am sure once you show your work to people, suddenly they don't care if you do Ads or weddings :)

Oleg Kalyan · July 29th, 2008, 12:48 AM

Interesting about bad rep of doing weddings for commercial work and vice versa,
can't say same thing, on the web site I have all kinds of work, divided in three sections,
I really believe that one complement the others. The level of work showed, what matters,
Tv and Film producers may think that it's a bad rep to do wedding videos, on the other hand, after watching it, if a wedding promo looks like a commercial or a film trailer, relative to a budget spent, it can give a lot of credit to a creator! IMO

Matthew Ebenezer · July 29th, 2008, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Kalyan

Interesting about bad rep of doing weddings for commercial work and vice versa,
can't say same thing, on the web site I have all kinds of work, divided in three sections,
I really believe that one complement the others. The level of work showed, what matters,
Tv and Film producers may think that it's a bad rep do to wedding videos, on the other hand, after watching it, if a wedding promo looks like a commercial or a film trailer, relative to a budget spent, it can give a lot of credit to creator! IMO

Hey Oleg,

Like Peter said, it's not an issue once people see our work ... it is usually in the stages before that - i.e. When you meet someone new and they ask what you do for a living ... that sort of thing.

If people's frame of reference for what you do is based on the poor perception of others in the same field ... then you can be tarnished with the same brush just by association, regardless of the quality of work you do.

This is especially so in my area where a lot of potential brides may have never seen a well produced wedding video - and when a wedding video is already a 2nd thought or the first thing to be dropped from their budget.

Anyway, I like the point that John made ... I wouldn't refer to myself as an artist but if clients or anyone else perceives me as one then that's fine.

July 27th, 2008, 07:18 AM	#31
David Tamés Kino-Eye Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 457	Bill, To your point, I personally don't think anyone should (but they can, and it's their right, we still live in a mostly open society) look down on a whole genre or category of visual expression. There are cheesy commercials (e.g. chickens selling used cars), and there are commercials that have become artistic classics (e.g. Apple's 1984 commercial) just as there are cheesy wedding videos and those that achieve a level of artistic (whatever that is, another thread) expression. And so on and so forth. And the labels of "cheese" and "art" are all in the mind of the beholder. __________________ David Tames { blog: http://Kino-Eye.com twitter: @cinemakinoeye }

July 27th, 2008, 11:23 AM	#34
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	Interesting, I've had a lengthy conversation with world top 10, W.P.P.I. the most awarded wedding photographer, Jerry Ghionis, we talked about many things, remember him telling me, that setting up your photography business... can be Art! :) What do you think, my brain starts to melt : ) Last edited by Oleg Kalyan; July 27th, 2008 at 12:48 PM.

July 28th, 2008, 11:54 AM	#39
David Tamés Kino-Eye Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 457	This thread has provided some food for thought. Thank you all. In summary, my reflections from this thread is that "Artist" is such a loaded term. Wiktionary defines the noun 'artist' as follows: 1. A person who creates art, 2. A person who creates art as an occupation, 3. A person who is skilled at some activity. Given definition #3 we are all artists. But even if we are, do we want to use the term? Meaning #3 implies to some clients you're not necessarily going to deliver what they want, since many people perceive "Artist = personal expression," while, "Professional X = delivering the goods," where X may be videographer, videomaker, mediamaker or any other term you like. The words we choose to describe ourselves with tell people a lot about ourselves, and the words people use to describe us and our work tells us a lot about them and the preconceptions they have acquired over the years, and along with that, something about how our work is perceived. Usually the term artist is used as compliment (great skill, wonderful vision, unique perspective) but other times, it implies someone who is more interested in expression that basic communication. Words are interesting things. __________________ David Tames { blog: http://Kino-Eye.com twitter: @cinemakinoeye }

July 29th, 2008, 12:48 AM	#44
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	Interesting about bad rep of doing weddings for commercial work and vice versa, can't say same thing, on the web site I have all kinds of work, divided in three sections, I really believe that one complement the others. The level of work showed, what matters, Tv and Film producers may think that it's a bad rep to do wedding videos, on the other hand, after watching it, if a wedding promo looks like a commercial or a film trailer, relative to a budget spent, it can give a lot of credit to a creator! IMO Last edited by Oleg Kalyan; July 29th, 2008 at 04:19 AM.

July 27th, 2008, 10:45 AM	#33
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	Point is exactly David that all of us out here making a living from doing video at whatever level add value to the business. I have friends in the business that tell me all the time I should not have a link to my wedding oriented site attached to my corporate site, or even tell my corporate clients I do weddings. I have found no actual bias in the workplace, only with other video producers. All I'm saying is that none of us are really elevating what we do as a whole except producing great work. And while there is cheesy wedding work out there, there is competing cheesy non-wedding work. Neither of us have the bragging rights ala 1984 apple commercial or even the mac vs pc stuff that's running now. The vast majority of us arguing the point are just folks out here trying to make a living. It is moot all the way around is what i mean. Noone should feel the right to be be superior by genre. Bill

July 28th, 2008, 12:28 AM	#37
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	OFF topic, Matthew I agree, Gerry is an artist in pure definition of this word, yet he is a great business man! Is there a contradiction? I don't think so, he doesn't stop to make amazing photographs, award winning albums, at the same time, he travels around the world 3-4 months a year with seminars, and he is booked all the rest of the time!

July 28th, 2008, 10:59 PM	#42
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	"mold the video to match their dreams and personalities" "Photographer has an eye for the money shot or can somehow draw it out of the person being photographed" Two very important distinctions, one is to create, illustrate, document something that the couple may think, imagine, assume!... On the other hand, we as creative individuals behind the camera dream up, visualize, create a concept, a mood, distinguish what is "divine and mundane", not always translate what is, but what it could be, if it would be a particular (yet limited, by the means we have "art form" IMO, that were the term "art" can signify particular meaning, on a crossroad of what is (wedding as a particular event) and our creative imagination!