Korn

Travis Cossel · June 16th, 2008, 10:05 AM

You guys are completely missing my point. Let me state something very clearly.

I am not saying he should not edit this client's video to the song in question.

I would appreciate it if people would stop assuming that's what I'm saying. My point is that he should consult with the couple before he proceeds with editing. Just because they are into metal doesn't mean they want their wedding video edited to metal (unless they told him so in advance - and if that's the case then he hasn't told US that yet). I really don't understand the harm in consulting with the couple. I mean, he's creating the video for THEM, right? So in a case where he's contemplating some out-of-the-box editing shouldn't he run his idea past the couple first? What's the harm?

Also, Rick, the "downside" to not consulting with the couple is that maybe they did NOT want their wedding video edited to metal music and if that's the case then Bill is going to make them unhappy, and nobody wants an unhappy client.

Also, just because something seems like a good idea initially doesn't mean it is. The other "downside" is that maybe the novelty of having your wedding edited to metal will wear off after the first few views. I'm not saying it WILL, so please don't misunderstand me yet again. I'm saying it MAY. So it is something that the editor and the couple should discuss to MAKE SURE that this is what they want to do. Again, I don't see the harm in having a discussion.

I've said a number of times now that I think if the couple and the editor have a discussion and the couple still wants their video edited to metal, then the editor should go for it. So once more, just so none of you miss my opinion on this again ...

If the editor and the couple have a discussion and the couple still wants to use metal in their wedding video, then the editor should go for it and have a fun time.

Thanks for reading.

Travis Cossel · June 16th, 2008, 10:09 AM

Just a simple case in point. I had a couple that recently couldn't think of what to edit their highlights video to. They said they wanted upbeat and edgy, but didn't have a song in mind. So I put together a list of songs and emailed it to them.

After several days they got back to me and chose a song that was NOT on the list and was NOT upbeat and edgy. It was much more mellow and romantic.

The moral of the story here is that INITIALLY they thought they wanted a certain style, but once they took some time to think it over they changed their mind and picked a different style because they felt it fit them and their wedding better.

Bill Grant · June 18th, 2008, 07:07 AM

Well,
Here's the thing. There are 2 points here. #1 I won't do it if it isn't awesome when I finish. It has to be mind blowingly good or I won't use it. It is taking a risk to use the song and it will have to really work to use it. #2 In our initial consultation, the groom asked if I could use Korn in there somehwere. What I will probably end up doing is using the intro to this song with its bagpipes, etc. and cut to something like Led Zeppelin for the rest. They haven't sent in they're music form but all we've talked about is this type of music. And, like I said they used the string version of "Toxicity" in their wedding...Bill

Travis Cossel · June 18th, 2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Grant

#2 In our initial consultation, the groom asked if I could use Korn in there somehwere.

That changes everything. I was under the impression that you knew this couple liked this music, but not that they had specifically requested that you use some of it in their video. If they've requested it, go for it.

Bill Grant · June 23rd, 2008, 10:24 AM

Ok so here is a first draft. I still need to go back and do some color correction, etc. but this is their version. I have done a second version for everyone else... I will just nest this version in with the other on the final DVD and make 2 copies. Like a theatrical release and a director's cut. Anyway here you go, flame away...

www.grantphotovideo.com/amandabill

Bill

Travis Cossel · June 23rd, 2008, 01:13 PM

Sorry, Bill, but it just felt completely off to me. Partly it's because for me (personal opinion) the music just does not fit the event, but it's more than just that.

I also feel like the shooting and editing style don't match the music at all. The music feels like it needs a more raw and edgy style of shooting and editing. I would expect more drastic camera moves (instead of soft gliding shots) and much faster and chaotic editing and maybe some cool "grungy" effects. I understand that you probably couldn't shoot much differently since you had to also produce a "family" piece, but maybe you could have taken more chances in the editing and really pushed things. I also didn't like all of the actual audio that was present in the beginning because it wasn't really helping the piece and was more of a distraction.

I hope you don't see this as "flaming", though. I'm just trying to provided a critique based on my own opinions. Thanks!

Bill Grant · June 23rd, 2008, 01:46 PM

no problem Travis,
I am not a gungy type of shooter, etc so that type of thing is hard for me. good note about the nat audio in the beginning. in all my years of doing this, I haven't been able to sort out how to get the footage to "match" the music. I shoot basically the way I know best. I can't understand how I could do it any differently without having the song picked out. this was just an experiment anyway, I don't have the time nor am I being paid to turn it into a Korn video. You know? Thanks for the reply...
Bill

Travis Cossel · June 23rd, 2008, 01:56 PM

Well, that was part of my point. You had to shoot this with "family edit" in mind, and that type of shooting doesn't really fit with the Korn music, so there's not much you could do differently with the shooting other than try to shoot BOTH ways on the day. While that's maybe possible, you also didn't know you were going to do a "Korn edit", so you didn't even think to shoot that way. So the shooting is a non-issue other than I still feel (as you probably do) that it doesn't match the music.

As for editing, I understand you aren't getting paid to produce a "Korn edit", which is why one of my original arguments stands. If you aren't getting paid to do it, and you aren't going to invest the time to do it right because of that, then just don't do it. I don't know your couple, and maybe they will love this just because of the music in the background, but for me it just doesn't do anything. The editing style is so distant from the music style that it just doesn't work for me.

Personally I still think you're missing a golden opportunity here. Rather than give them a mediocre intro edit with Korn music in the background, why not upsell them on doing a trash the dress video with the Korn music? That way you have an opportunity to shoot the video in a way that fits with the music (and the lyrics even!) and you're now getting paid to edit the video properly ... AND the couple will probably love the result and show it to all of their friends (free advertising!). Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening, and good luck!

John Moon · June 23rd, 2008, 02:08 PM

Bill....I say go for it. If it were not for John Michael Cooper pushing the envelope a bit we might still be looking at all those awful posed shots. Be dynamic and go with your gut. The couple will love it and its for them. If anything it will display how diverse you are. I'm a little biased though...we just shot a TTD to a Breaking Benjamin song. :) Cant wait to see your edit.

Travis Cossel · June 23rd, 2008, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Moon

I'm a little biased though...we just shot a TTD to a Breaking Benjamin song. :)

Make sure you post that!

Bill Grant · June 24th, 2008, 07:16 AM

I scrapped it. It's not my style of editing or whatever. I'm not a filters, sctrachy, film effects kind of dude. I used Led Zeppelin "all of my love" it fit a little better, and honestly feels better to me. It is a break from Rascall Flatts and I think they'll like it. Thanks for all of the input.
Bill

Travis Cossel · June 24th, 2008, 11:50 AM

Sorry it didn't work out better, Bill. At least you tried something new, though. That's more than a lot of videographers do.

Ethan Cooper · June 26th, 2008, 08:00 AM

Bill - I didn't wanna be the guy to say anything negative since I was the one pushing for you to go for it, but it just didn't work. I don't think the edit fit the song. It's good that you decided not to force it.

David Mathew Bonner · June 27th, 2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Bloom

I have to agree with Rick.
I am a child of the 60s which had some of the most forward thinking and best music I've heard then and now. Guess what I still listen to.
Cream, Zepplin, Hendrix, Grass Roots, Joplin,Iron Butterfly and of course the Beatles. There are many more that escape my old and getting weaker by the day mind;-)

I say 'go for it'. Do something out of the box, be different, make it something that's memorable for THEM and if in 50 years they say 'why did we use that music?' ... well that's then, this is now.

Don

Hey Don,
Thanks for still thinking of me :)
Did I ever show you my "A day in the life" groom prep cut?
Full wedding, first part is weak, bad audio but hand in, it gets better.
http://www.dmbvp.com/video/adayinthelife.wmv

David Mathew Bonner · June 27th, 2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Grant

I scrapped it. It's not my style of editing or whatever. I'm not a filters, sctrachy, film effects kind of dude. I used Led Zeppelin "all of my love" it fit a little better, and honestly feels better to me. It is a break from Rascall Flatts and I think they'll like it. Thanks for all of the input.
Bill

too bad,
its soooo much fun to edit that way, for real.
but yeah, edgy music without edgy footage just doesnt feel right...
stick to what makes you money and 'your style'
it's who you are. I tell my clients, this is your world through my eyes. That's as simple as it gets.
dMb

June 16th, 2008, 10:05 AM	#16
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	You guys are completely missing my point. Let me state something very clearly. I am not saying he should not edit this client's video to the song in question. I would appreciate it if people would stop assuming that's what I'm saying. My point is that he should consult with the couple before he proceeds with editing. Just because they are into metal doesn't mean they want their wedding video edited to metal (unless they told him so in advance - and if that's the case then he hasn't told US that yet). I really don't understand the harm in consulting with the couple. I mean, he's creating the video for THEM, right? So in a case where he's contemplating some out-of-the-box editing shouldn't he run his idea past the couple first? What's the harm? Also, Rick, the "downside" to not consulting with the couple is that maybe they did NOT want their wedding video edited to metal music and if that's the case then Bill is going to make them unhappy, and nobody wants an unhappy client. Also, just because something seems like a good idea initially doesn't mean it is. The other "downside" is that maybe the novelty of having your wedding edited to metal will wear off after the first few views. I'm not saying it WILL, so please don't misunderstand me yet again. I'm saying it MAY. So it is something that the editor and the couple should discuss to MAKE SURE that this is what they want to do. Again, I don't see the harm in having a discussion. I've said a number of times now that I think if the couple and the editor have a discussion and the couple still wants their video edited to metal, then the editor should go for it. So once more, just so none of you miss my opinion on this again ... If the editor and the couple have a discussion and the couple still wants to use metal in their wedding video, then the editor should go for it and have a fun time. Thanks for reading. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

June 16th, 2008, 10:09 AM	#17
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Just a simple case in point. I had a couple that recently couldn't think of what to edit their highlights video to. They said they wanted upbeat and edgy, but didn't have a song in mind. So I put together a list of songs and emailed it to them. After several days they got back to me and chose a song that was NOT on the list and was NOT upbeat and edgy. It was much more mellow and romantic. The moral of the story here is that INITIALLY they thought they wanted a certain style, but once they took some time to think it over they changed their mind and picked a different style because they felt it fit them and their wedding better. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

June 23rd, 2008, 01:13 PM	#21
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Sorry, Bill, but it just felt completely off to me. Partly it's because for me (personal opinion) the music just does not fit the event, but it's more than just that. I also feel like the shooting and editing style don't match the music at all. The music feels like it needs a more raw and edgy style of shooting and editing. I would expect more drastic camera moves (instead of soft gliding shots) and much faster and chaotic editing and maybe some cool "grungy" effects. I understand that you probably couldn't shoot much differently since you had to also produce a "family" piece, but maybe you could have taken more chances in the editing and really pushed things. I also didn't like all of the actual audio that was present in the beginning because it wasn't really helping the piece and was more of a distraction. I hope you don't see this as "flaming", though. I'm just trying to provided a critique based on my own opinions. Thanks! __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

June 23rd, 2008, 01:56 PM	#23
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Well, that was part of my point. You had to shoot this with "family edit" in mind, and that type of shooting doesn't really fit with the Korn music, so there's not much you could do differently with the shooting other than try to shoot BOTH ways on the day. While that's maybe possible, you also didn't know you were going to do a "Korn edit", so you didn't even think to shoot that way. So the shooting is a non-issue other than I still feel (as you probably do) that it doesn't match the music. As for editing, I understand you aren't getting paid to produce a "Korn edit", which is why one of my original arguments stands. If you aren't getting paid to do it, and you aren't going to invest the time to do it right because of that, then just don't do it. I don't know your couple, and maybe they will love this just because of the music in the background, but for me it just doesn't do anything. The editing style is so distant from the music style that it just doesn't work for me. Personally I still think you're missing a golden opportunity here. Rather than give them a mediocre intro edit with Korn music in the background, why not upsell them on doing a trash the dress video with the Korn music? That way you have an opportunity to shoot the video in a way that fits with the music (and the lyrics even!) and you're now getting paid to edit the video properly ... AND the couple will probably love the result and show it to all of their friends (free advertising!). Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening, and good luck! __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

June 23rd, 2008, 02:08 PM	#24
John Moon Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 446	Bill....I say go for it. If it were not for John Michael Cooper pushing the envelope a bit we might still be looking at all those awful posed shots. Be dynamic and go with your gut. The couple will love it and its for them. If anything it will display how diverse you are. I'm a little biased though...we just shot a TTD to a Breaking Benjamin song. :) Cant wait to see your edit. __________________ John J. Moon www.northernlightfilmworks.com - Event DV Top 25 Recipient

June 18th, 2008, 07:07 AM	#18
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	Well, Here's the thing. There are 2 points here. #1 I won't do it if it isn't awesome when I finish. It has to be mind blowingly good or I won't use it. It is taking a risk to use the song and it will have to really work to use it. #2 In our initial consultation, the groom asked if I could use Korn in there somehwere. What I will probably end up doing is using the intro to this song with its bagpipes, etc. and cut to something like Led Zeppelin for the rest. They haven't sent in they're music form but all we've talked about is this type of music. And, like I said they used the string version of "Toxicity" in their wedding...Bill

June 23rd, 2008, 10:24 AM	#20
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	Ok so here is a first draft. I still need to go back and do some color correction, etc. but this is their version. I have done a second version for everyone else... I will just nest this version in with the other on the final DVD and make 2 copies. Like a theatrical release and a director's cut. Anyway here you go, flame away... www.grantphotovideo.com/amandabill Bill

June 23rd, 2008, 01:46 PM	#22
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	no problem Travis, I am not a gungy type of shooter, etc so that type of thing is hard for me. good note about the nat audio in the beginning. in all my years of doing this, I haven't been able to sort out how to get the footage to "match" the music. I shoot basically the way I know best. I can't understand how I could do it any differently without having the song picked out. this was just an experiment anyway, I don't have the time nor am I being paid to turn it into a Korn video. You know? Thanks for the reply... Bill

June 24th, 2008, 07:16 AM	#26
Bill Grant Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Columbia,SC Posts: 806	I scrapped it. It's not my style of editing or whatever. I'm not a filters, sctrachy, film effects kind of dude. I used Led Zeppelin "all of my love" it fit a little better, and honestly feels better to me. It is a break from Rascall Flatts and I think they'll like it. Thanks for all of the input. Bill

June 24th, 2008, 11:50 AM	#27
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	Sorry it didn't work out better, Bill. At least you tried something new, though. That's more than a lot of videographers do. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

June 26th, 2008, 08:00 AM	#28
Ethan Cooper Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Houma, La. Posts: 1,400 Images: 5	Bill - I didn't wanna be the guy to say anything negative since I was the one pushing for you to go for it, but it just didn't work. I don't think the edit fit the song. It's good that you decided not to force it. __________________ ∅ -Ethan Cooper