Varizoom Swit vs. Marshall HDA

Devon Lyon · January 19th, 2007, 09:19 PM

Chad,

How odd. I must say there must be something wrong with your component inputs. My screen detail is increased when viewed through component. Your picture does look horribly soft in component. I would not put up with that type of screen resolution. Ouch. So, not really sure what's going on there.

Chad Terpstra · January 20th, 2007, 12:30 AM

That's good to hear. So other than having a defective unit, it's a great little monitor. I'll let you know if I think the Marshall is as good as they say when I get it next week.

Peter Ferling · January 20th, 2007, 01:21 PM

Chad, I think you'll like the Marshal, (assuming it's the HD version). My only beef is the weight. However, I expect some very rugged use. I've already banged it a few times with the noga arm not being tight enough and it let go.

I've used it a few shoots, and though I've had a 17" production monitor along with, I'm certainly comfortable to have this along for run and gun. (I've also been able to confirm the realiability of peaking on the camera's own LCD).

Another issue is the external battery adding more weight and bulk to the unit. It's seems to have 'tipped the scales' (so to speak) on the noga arm. So, I've ordered a 12v belt pack to power the thing.

Getting back you're issue, I'm curious to know how both the Swit and Marshal monitors compare.

Eugene Kim · January 20th, 2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ferling

Chad, I think you'll like the Marshal, (assuming it's the HD version). My only beef is the weight. However, I expect some very rugged use. I've already banged it a few times with the noga arm not being tight enough and it let go.

I've used it a few shoots, and though I've had a 17" production monitor along with, I'm certainly comfortable to have this along for run and gun. (I've also been able to confirm the realiability of peaking on the camera's own LCD).

I have the money for an XH-A1 right now, but not the wherewithal to buy a $1600 Marshall right now (not a believer in overextending credit cards on items more than a grand). I have a 7" Nebtek 70-LI with noga arm ("Israeli arm"), this is the modified Panasonic that was the best LCD for SD use back in its day.

Basically, what I'm asking is, how comparable is the on-camera LCD of the XH-A1 to the Nebtek 70-Li? I know you have to use peaking and magnifying and such to focus reliably with the on-camera LCD, and this would work for most situations until you upgrade to the 7" Marshall or whatever. However, what I'm hoping is that buy buying the Canon LANC remote for the A1 ($400 so not cheap), I'll be able to use my Nebtek occasionally for jib use...i.e. the Canon remote has magnifying and peak options.

With that said, as a fiction writing grad student, I can qualify for the academic pricing on the HDV Rack 2.0 for just $160, so that means if I sell my current laptop and upgrade to a slightly faster one, that would work for me too.

Thanks for any info. Basically, just hoping I can get a little more life out of my Nebtek 70-Li until I can put the $1600 cash together for the Marshall.

P.S. Anyway, I ask this because I remember a long time ago at EVS, during the FX1's hey day, before there was a Marhsall or Swit alternative for run and gun situtations, the salesman told me that a lot of people were using the Nebtek without problems on their FX1 while shooting high-def. He set-up the camera to it, for me to check out the focusing, and said that the Nebtek's LCD was better than the FX1's on board LCD. I believe he then used peaking or whatever, to show me; actually, I don't really remember the details as truthfully, though I didn't say it aloud, I wasn't really convinced with the focusing demonstration I saw. But who knows, we're talking a few seconds in time here. So maybe it really would be adequate for occasional outdoor field use with a jib or whatever, for indoors I'll just upgrade my laptop/HDV rack it anyway.

Peter Ferling · January 20th, 2007, 09:45 PM

Eugene, I don't know about the particular monitor that you have, but you have to understand two things:

1) No 250 horizontal line anything will show effective focus for an HD/HDV camera. Even so, a 480 horizontal line monitor is marginal, and the 1:1 pixel mapping is the crutch needed. When you get into 680 lines it's a good match. The price doubles for each step up.

2)The other equation is whether your viewing component vs. composite. Many of the sub $1000 units will only accept a composite input and that's simply too soft. Even for the Marshall HDA, there is an obvious difference between viewing component vs. composite. Sure, with composite you can get a sense for focus -with some hunting to find it, but not tack sharp and immediate.

The only 'budget' level monitors currently for HD are the swit and marshall. When you consider the risk of blowing a paycheck and your time because of poor focus... it's a no brainer.

Eugene Kim · January 20th, 2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ferling

Eugene, I don't know about the particular monitor that you have, but you have to understand two things:

1) No 250 horizontal line anything will show effective focus for an HD/HDV camera. Even so, a 480 horizontal line monitor is marginal, and the 1:1 pixel mapping is the crutch needed. When you get into 680 lines it's a good match. The price doubles for each step up.

2)The other equation is whether your viewing component vs. composite. Many of the sub $1000 units will only accept a composite input and that's simply too soft. Even for the Marshall HDA, there is an obvious difference between viewing component vs. composite. Sure, with composite you can get a sense for focus -with some hunting to find it, but not tack sharp and immediate.

The only 'budget' level monitors currently for HD are the swit and marshall. When you consider the risk of blowing a paycheck and your time because of poor focus... it's a no brainer.

True, true. Didn't figure it had a chance in heck, but oh well. I've been too busy with school, and got injured, so haven't kept in the loop for awhile now. I really don't forsee needing HD for awhile, as I'll not be working full-time, but only looking for the occasional gig that fits my schedule this upcoming semester. I.e. In other words, hard for me to justify charging for something like a Marshall right now. I think I'll probably wait on the laptop upgrade as well, I'm sure this summer I'll get way more bang for the buck...technology...sheesh, I hate it when you're not keeping up with the times.

Sam Jankis · January 20th, 2007, 11:31 PM

Are any of these monitors even worth it?

Chad Terpstra · January 21st, 2007, 04:08 PM

Depends on who you are and what you want to do with it. If you can't see a way they'd be worth the cost to you, they probably aren't.

Peter Ferling · January 21st, 2007, 11:35 PM

If I only had a 250line monitor, I'd still use it, and in some cases, get away with it. So it's not a desperate matter if you can't afford to upgrade to 480 lines or higher. You can get a sense of focus, and learn to ride the IAF button, and in combination with peaking enabled on the smaller built in LCD, you can train yourself to know where your at. The IAF is very quick and useful. The trick is to use manual focus and only hit or ride the instant focus button as needed to avoid the constant wandering you get in full auto.

Eugene Kim · January 22nd, 2007, 01:25 PM

Thanks for the info.

Chad Terpstra · January 25th, 2007, 11:47 AM

For those still interested I got the Marshall and shot a few comparison photos. I still don't know if there is something wrong with the SWIT they gave me, but if not, then I'd definitely not recommend using it with component. I could not tell focus or color (though this is adjustable with sliders) It's much better in S-video (even better than the marshall in S-video).

But the Marshall with HD plugs looks the best of all. I only wish it had some kind of peaking or zoom so that you could better see the focus. It’s there, but it's not as hit-you-in-the-face focus as I was hoping. You still have to get your face in there and look hard. But you can tell when it's sharp because it has some aliasing on the edges (so I guess this is a little bit of peaking).

But it's still a pretty monitor and will certainly come in handy for adapter work and everything else (though I'll be relying on my Dell 24" as much as I can because it does give hit-you-in-the-face focus feedback).

The good things I can say about the SWIT are:
1.) Size (that extra inch may not seem like much but it really is helpful for comfortable viewing. If only it were sharper…),
2.) Weight (the Marshall is bulky and heavy),
3.) Price. ($500 less with accessories = considerable amount),
4.) Image flip (it's handy).

I do have one question for those who know more about this than I do. I'm getting some horizontal lines on the Marshall when using it in HD or composite with my JVC HD100. They scroll from the bottom to the top of the monitor about 1 inch apart. It's crazy annoying and I don't know where it's coming from. There's no problem when I view component output to my Dell monitor directly (but it transfers through if I go through the Marshall outputs). I tried getting some "better" adapters at Radioshack -same things, but gold. They didn't help. Could there be an issue with the BNC adapters still? Would something like this be better: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation Or should I be calling JVC? Thanks.

Here's the photos:

Sam Jankis · January 25th, 2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Terpstra

I do have one question for those who know more about this than I do. I'm getting some horizontal lines on the Marshall when using it in HD or composite with my JVC HD100. They scroll from the bottom to the top of the monitor about 1 inch apart. It's crazy annoying and I don't know where it's coming from.

I never experienced this problem with the HVX200 (in any mode). Know anyone with an HVX? It would rule out the connectors. I'd guess that it's cam. setting, but I know nothing about the JVC.

Peter Ferling · January 25th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Chad, I don't have that issue with the Marshall, and it sounds like a power/interferance issue. These monitors did have issues with flickering when used on HVX's, do a search on Marshall flickering HVX. Marshall reported it to be a calibration or power conditioning issue that was fixed. However, some users reported the problem persisted even after sending in for a fix.

You may have a defective unit? However, if your Swit was also acting up, maybe it's your camera? Are you able to hook the Marshall up to another camera to confirm the issue?

Dennis Wood · January 26th, 2007, 12:30 AM

Chad, great comparison shots. I pretty much came to the same conclusion on the Marshall after doing my own tests. Once the Dell monitor arrives here, I'll be interested to see how it performs with the A1...but your grabs from it looked pretty good.

Chad Terpstra · January 26th, 2007, 01:14 AM

Peter, I seem to have misplaced my component hookups for my FX1 or I'd have tried that for sure. But I did try it with my DVD player via component and it gave a good clean image without the lines. I've got the LCD powered by my camera's Anton Bauer battery via a powertap to XLR cable. Here's the scoop on what I've tried with power:

On AC power the LCD shows less of a problem but the pass through outputs show the lines very badly on the larger HD monitor. BUT when I turn the Marshall off the lines go away on the large monitor...

On the camera's battery (shared power) both monitors exhibit the lines but the large HD screen less so. -Also stops when Marshall turned off.

On a separate battery both monitors look pretty clean and if anything have a faint flicker which is hard to detect/easy to ignore..

So it appears there is some sort of power inconsistency. It seems like the Marshall was intended to be powered by a single battery all by itself. I may have to rethink my power solution… Dennis, when did you say you’d have that rails-mounted battery done? ;-)

January 19th, 2007, 09:19 PM	#31
Devon Lyon Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 213	Chad, How odd. I must say there must be something wrong with your component inputs. My screen detail is increased when viewed through component. Your picture does look horribly soft in component. I would not put up with that type of screen resolution. Ouch. So, not really sure what's going on there. __________________ Lyon Films www.LyonFilms.com;

January 25th, 2007, 11:47 AM	#41
Chad Terpstra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 320	For those still interested I got the Marshall and shot a few comparison photos. I still don't know if there is something wrong with the SWIT they gave me, but if not, then I'd definitely not recommend using it with component. I could not tell focus or color (though this is adjustable with sliders) It's much better in S-video (even better than the marshall in S-video). But the Marshall with HD plugs looks the best of all. I only wish it had some kind of peaking or zoom so that you could better see the focus. It’s there, but it's not as hit-you-in-the-face focus as I was hoping. You still have to get your face in there and look hard. But you can tell when it's sharp because it has some aliasing on the edges (so I guess this is a little bit of peaking). But it's still a pretty monitor and will certainly come in handy for adapter work and everything else (though I'll be relying on my Dell 24" as much as I can because it does give hit-you-in-the-face focus feedback). The good things I can say about the SWIT are: 1.) Size (that extra inch may not seem like much but it really is helpful for comfortable viewing. If only it were sharper…), 2.) Weight (the Marshall is bulky and heavy), 3.) Price. ($500 less with accessories = considerable amount), 4.) Image flip (it's handy). I do have one question for those who know more about this than I do. I'm getting some horizontal lines on the Marshall when using it in HD or composite with my JVC HD100. They scroll from the bottom to the top of the monitor about 1 inch apart. It's crazy annoying and I don't know where it's coming from. There's no problem when I view component output to my Dell monitor directly (but it transfers through if I go through the Marshall outputs). I tried getting some "better" adapters at Radioshack -same things, but gold. They didn't help. Could there be an issue with the BNC adapters still? Would something like this be better: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation Or should I be calling JVC? Thanks. Here's the photos: Attached Thumbnails

January 20th, 2007, 12:30 AM	#32
Chad Terpstra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 320	That's good to hear. So other than having a defective unit, it's a great little monitor. I'll let you know if I think the Marshall is as good as they say when I get it next week.

January 20th, 2007, 01:21 PM	#33
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Chad, I think you'll like the Marshal, (assuming it's the HD version). My only beef is the weight. However, I expect some very rugged use. I've already banged it a few times with the noga arm not being tight enough and it let go. I've used it a few shoots, and though I've had a 17" production monitor along with, I'm certainly comfortable to have this along for run and gun. (I've also been able to confirm the realiability of peaking on the camera's own LCD). Another issue is the external battery adding more weight and bulk to the unit. It's seems to have 'tipped the scales' (so to speak) on the noga arm. So, I've ordered a 12v belt pack to power the thing. Getting back you're issue, I'm curious to know how both the Swit and Marshal monitors compare.

January 20th, 2007, 09:45 PM	#35
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Eugene, I don't know about the particular monitor that you have, but you have to understand two things: 1) No 250 horizontal line anything will show effective focus for an HD/HDV camera. Even so, a 480 horizontal line monitor is marginal, and the 1:1 pixel mapping is the crutch needed. When you get into 680 lines it's a good match. The price doubles for each step up. 2)The other equation is whether your viewing component vs. composite. Many of the sub $1000 units will only accept a composite input and that's simply too soft. Even for the Marshall HDA, there is an obvious difference between viewing component vs. composite. Sure, with composite you can get a sense for focus -with some hunting to find it, but not tack sharp and immediate. The only 'budget' level monitors currently for HD are the swit and marshall. When you consider the risk of blowing a paycheck and your time because of poor focus... it's a no brainer.

January 20th, 2007, 11:31 PM	#37
Sam Jankis Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Pete, FL Posts: 223	Are any of these monitors even worth it?

January 21st, 2007, 04:08 PM	#38
Chad Terpstra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 320	Depends on who you are and what you want to do with it. If you can't see a way they'd be worth the cost to you, they probably aren't.

January 21st, 2007, 11:35 PM	#39
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	If I only had a 250line monitor, I'd still use it, and in some cases, get away with it. So it's not a desperate matter if you can't afford to upgrade to 480 lines or higher. You can get a sense of focus, and learn to ride the IAF button, and in combination with peaking enabled on the smaller built in LCD, you can train yourself to know where your at. The IAF is very quick and useful. The trick is to use manual focus and only hit or ride the instant focus button as needed to avoid the constant wandering you get in full auto.

January 22nd, 2007, 01:25 PM	#40
Eugene Kim Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 166	Thanks for the info.

January 25th, 2007, 06:59 PM	#43
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Chad, I don't have that issue with the Marshall, and it sounds like a power/interferance issue. These monitors did have issues with flickering when used on HVX's, do a search on Marshall flickering HVX. Marshall reported it to be a calibration or power conditioning issue that was fixed. However, some users reported the problem persisted even after sending in for a fix. You may have a defective unit? However, if your Swit was also acting up, maybe it's your camera? Are you able to hook the Marshall up to another camera to confirm the issue?

January 26th, 2007, 12:30 AM	#44
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	Chad, great comparison shots. I pretty much came to the same conclusion on the Marshall after doing my own tests. Once the Dell monitor arrives here, I'll be interested to see how it performs with the A1...but your grabs from it looked pretty good.

January 26th, 2007, 01:14 AM	#45
Chad Terpstra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 320	Peter, I seem to have misplaced my component hookups for my FX1 or I'd have tried that for sure. But I did try it with my DVD player via component and it gave a good clean image without the lines. I've got the LCD powered by my camera's Anton Bauer battery via a powertap to XLR cable. Here's the scoop on what I've tried with power: On AC power the LCD shows less of a problem but the pass through outputs show the lines very badly on the larger HD monitor. BUT when I turn the Marshall off the lines go away on the large monitor... On the camera's battery (shared power) both monitors exhibit the lines but the large HD screen less so. -Also stops when Marshall turned off. On a separate battery both monitors look pretty clean and if anything have a faint flicker which is hard to detect/easy to ignore.. So it appears there is some sort of power inconsistency. It seems like the Marshall was intended to be powered by a single battery all by itself. I may have to rethink my power solution… Dennis, when did you say you’d have that rails-mounted battery done? ;-)