least expensive NTSC monitor with the blue switch? at DVinfo.net

Mike Costantini · October 5th, 2006, 05:38 PM

I actually have a few questions but they depend on how little I can spend on one of these monitors...

I'm creating instructional DVDs that will be played on both computers and TVs. I've been using a 19" Toshiba television as my monitor, but I cannot do this anymore because the sensor for the remote quit working and I can't access the color controls menu without the remote =(

So, I need to either buy an inexpensive ntsc monitor , or another television (this time with the menu control ON the tv!!)

Also - What is the best way to calibrate my crt computer monitor so that it will be "standard" as far as DVDs for computer monitors look?

And finally - is there such a method to make the final DVD look good on both televisions and computer monitors?

Glenn Chan · October 5th, 2006, 08:42 PM

Install the tool. The help file looks like it has some good info and how to setup your monitor.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...tor-Test.shtml

Quote:

And finally - is there such a method to make the final DVD look good on both televisions and computer monitors?

With televisions, there's a number of things to watch out for. If you just monitor on a TV, you'll figure out what these are.
pixel aspect ratio - this is subtle, but the pixels aren't square for TV.
low resolution
color bleeding
chroma crawl (monitor with a composite connection to see this)
interlace flicker
etc.

Computer imagery should be big to work well on a TV.... so you need to zoom in.

3- I'd just get a cheap television (CRT).
Consumer televisions are hard to calibrate, and some of them don't have a clear calibration because the colors are decoded weirdly / in a non-standard way.

According to Simon Wyndham on this forum, the JVC televisions allow you to disable a lot of the image "enhancements". So they might be useful.

Mike Costantini · October 5th, 2006, 08:57 PM

"Computer imagery should be big to work well on a TV.... so you need to zoom in."

Not sure what you mean there?

I downloaded that Nokia program - I don't have any clue what to do with it. The help file is totally lame, no real directions in it...

Glenn Chan · October 5th, 2006, 11:07 PM

1- I assumed you were doing screen captures of PC application. In that case, you want the pixels to be roughly 1:1. This may be a bad assumption on my part and may not apply to you.

2- The Nokia program:
Wait, you're right about lack of instructions.

Anyways, here's instructions:
Let monitor warm up for 20 mins.
Get rid of as much light hitting the monitor as possible. Turn off lights, block glare.
Display black on the edges of your monitor. The fourth pattern under colors in the Nokia tool will work.
Adjust the H position of the monitor to either extreme.
Look at the edge of the active picture.
The correct "brightness" setting is when you can just barely not see the difference. You want black to correspond to no light emitted from the monitor.
Put the horizontal position back.

Contrast:
If it hurts your eyes, turn contrast down.
For a computer monitor, turn it up just before the point where image distortion hits. Check this with the high voltage and focus test patterns in the Nokia tool.
In the High voltage tool, watch the pattern alternate. Look at the edges and see if the geometry changes.

Convergence:
If your monitor has a convergence setting, play around with it while looking at the convergence patterns. Start with the white pattern- it may be the only one you need.

Gain / color temperature / user RGB:
display a black & white image on all your computer monitors and your external preview monitor.
Adjust user RGB until the black and white images look more similar.
Let your eyes look at one monitor for several seconds, then look at another monitor to see if the whites look perfectly white.
Use a real world image, not a test pattern.

Geometry settings on your monitor:
Play around with these in conjunction with the geometry test patterns. Lines should be straight, especially in the corners.

Mike Costantini · October 6th, 2006, 01:04 PM

I'll have to give all this a try later today - I have a color temperature setting on my monitor. What should it be on 6500K or 9300K?

Steve House · October 6th, 2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Costantini

I'll have to give all this a try later today - I have a color temperature setting on my monitor. What should it be on 6500K or 9300K?

NTSC in North America calls for 6500. I understand Japan often uses the 9300 balance point.

For an economy monitor recommendation, I'm about to get one myself and am taking a very close look at the JVC TM-H150CGU
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...&itempath=null

Mike Costantini · October 6th, 2006, 01:15 PM

Oh, I meant on my computer monitor, for editing. Should I have it at 6500 or 9300 before I do the calibration. In other words, when a customer buys a DVD and he plays it on his computer, would his default be 6500 or 9300?

Also, what is the $$$ on that JVC monitor?

Mike Costantini · October 6th, 2006, 04:02 PM

Is this a good one?:
http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/secu...productID=1078

I just sent an email to Simon about the JVC tvs you mentioned he knew about...

Is the "blue only" switch necessary for proper calibration because the less expensive monitors don't have that feature...z

I guess what I'm trying ask is if the cheapest "monitor" i.e. the JVC Presentation monitors at B&H are better to use than a regular TV for the purpose of an external preview in Vegas?

such as
JVC TM-A13SU - 13" - $209
JVC TM-21A2U - 21" - $219
JVC TM-A13UCV - 13" - $235

Why is the 21" around the same price as the 13" ones?

Steve House · October 7th, 2006, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Costantini

Oh, I meant on my computer monitor, for editing. Should I have it at 6500 or 9300 before I do the calibration. In other words, when a customer buys a DVD and he plays it on his computer, would his default be 6500 or 9300?

Also, what is the $$$ on that JVC monitor?

B&H lists it for $499, Full Compass for $465.

As for trying to second guess how your audience has chosen to set up their computer monitors, lot's o' luck! At least for TV there is a standard, whether people follow it or not, but for computers it's totally up for grabs. Even when calibrating monitors for colour-critical photography, illustration, and graphic design it isn't really set to any 'monitor standard' so much as being set up to match the output system being used (specific printer, etc). So when it comes to setting up your own computer monitor, OTOH, I'd go with 6500 to get your colours into the ballpark. But RGB colour on a typical computer monitor is not the same as video so final colour adjustments should be done on an external, properly calibrated, NTSC monitor. You said your intended audience may be viewing the DVDs on either a computer or a TV. If you standardize your colours to your computer monitor, viewers using a TV may be way off. And depending on how their monitors are set up compared to yours, some viewers using a computer might also be way off anyway. OTOH, if you standardize to NTSC, viewers with a good, properly adjusted, TV (a rarity IMHO but that's another matter) will be on, most other TV users will be close, and most computer users will also be at least reasonably close. It seems to me that going with the NTSC standards and making your colour adjustments using an exteral monitor gives you the best shot at delivering the proper colours to the most users in your audience. Whether they follow the standards or not, you doing so on your end makes the most sense. So I'd use a properly setup external monitor as my standard reference point, calibrate it with bars from Vegas, then following Glenn's advice and methods, display the same images on both the computer and the external monitors and adjust your computer monitor to appear as similar as possible to the external one.

Mike Costantini · October 7th, 2006, 12:37 PM

Thanks for the detailed reply - so just to clarify, do you think it would be better to buy the inexpensive JVC montiors I listed above that range from $200-300 instead of a small TV? I'm trying to determine if even the cheapest monitor is better to use as my preview device than a regular TV. Or do I have to buy a more expensive monitor ($400+) to get any benefit from having a monitor as opposed to a TV?

Steve House · October 7th, 2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Costantini

Thanks for the detailed reply - so just to clarify, do you think it would be better to buy the inexpensive JVC montiors I listed above that range from $200-300 instead of a small TV? I'm trying to determine if even the cheapest monitor is better to use as my preview device than a regular TV. Or do I have to buy a more expensive monitor ($400+) to get any benefit from having a monitor as opposed to a TV?

There are monitors and then there are monitors <grin>. From a marketing standpoint, just about anything without a TV's broadcast station tuner could be called a 'monitor'. This would include security camera monitors, industrial presentation displays, etc, which are basically just ordinary TV's without the tuner and perhaps with a slightly different arrangement of A/V inputs compared to consumer sets and maybe a somewhat beefed-up power supply to allow for 24/7 operation. But for video production and editing, IMHO, if your budget permits, you should try for a true broadcast studio type monitor to do it right. These are characterised by their having such controls as Blue Only, Colour Off, Underscan, etc, plus a greater degree of setup adjustments to provide you the necessary tools for proper setup and calibration and then checking various aspects of the signal as you're working. Or consider resolution - the 13" monitor you mentioned resolves to the consumer TV standard of 320 lines while the 15" I suggested resolves 750 lines, a signifigant difference. Broadcast monitors are designed to help establish a true reference standard for the entire system, not merely to serve as an alternate display. One of those monitors you mentioned might be a little better image and more rugged than a regular TV but I wouldn't expect there to be a dramatic difference. If you're serious, IMHO, you should set your sights a little higher. And of course, even finding a CRT consumer TV these days is also going to be a real problem - they seemed to have completely vanished off the shelves about last January to be replaced with LCD models.

Just my opinions, your mileage may differ.

Mike Costantini · October 7th, 2006, 02:20 PM

Ok that's what I wanted to know. Actually, what you said about them not being available isn't true. There's many CRT consumer TVs out there that have S-Video and/or composite inputs less than 20" so I think I will probably just go with one of those as my application isn't THAT critical when I really stop and think about it (music instructional DVDs)

Steve House · October 7th, 2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Costantini

Ok that's what I wanted to know. Actually, what you said about them not being available isn't true. There's many CRT consumer TVs out there that have S-Video and/or composite inputs less than 20" so I think I will probably just go with one of those as my application isn't THAT critical when I really stop and think about it (music instructional DVDs)

Shops in Nevada might have a wider selection than here, but when I go to Best Buy or Future Shop (Circuit City) or Costco there very few CRT TVs in sight <grin>.

Mike Costantini · October 7th, 2006, 04:51 PM

I went on circuit city's website just a bit ago, and they have three candidates I'm going to look at. All three are 20" and the brands are Samsung, Magnavox and Symphonic I think it was.. All three have S-Video and you can access the menu functions from the TV itself and don't have to use the remote.. So in a little while I'm going to go look at the three TVs at circuit city...

Any suggestions based on brand alone? You can see the TVs on their website.

Glenn Chan · October 7th, 2006, 10:02 PM

Quote:

(music instructional DVDs)

Well there you go. Considering that, I would just get a cheap TV and spend the rest of your money on audio and lighting and such. If you make significant revenue, then maybe get a broadcast monitor (around $600USD upwards + shipping).

2- The standard white point is D65, not 6500K. It's a subtle difference (D65 is slightly greener), but many sources get it wrong. Even Sony got it wrong... they have some broadcast monitors listing 6500K as the color temperature.

Anyways, I would put the computer monitor to a white point that matches your TV the most. You should try to match the white points of all your monitors... this way, your white balance won't shift around when you look at either monitor.

If there is a user RGB setting, that is even better.

2b- Try to get your monitors close to D65. You just need to be in the ballpark (and 6500K is in the ballpark).

3- Which TV to get: I'd get whatever is on sale, or good value.

Big box stores tend to have high prices... although sometimes they have loss leader sales.

October 5th, 2006, 05:38 PM	#1
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	least expensive NTSC monitor with the blue switch? I actually have a few questions but they depend on how little I can spend on one of these monitors... I'm creating instructional DVDs that will be played on both computers and TVs. I've been using a 19" Toshiba television as my monitor, but I cannot do this anymore because the sensor for the remote quit working and I can't access the color controls menu without the remote =( So, I need to either buy an inexpensive ntsc monitor , or another television (this time with the menu control ON the tv!!) Also - What is the best way to calibrate my crt computer monitor so that it will be "standard" as far as DVDs for computer monitors look? And finally - is there such a method to make the final DVD look good on both televisions and computer monitors?

October 6th, 2006, 04:02 PM	#8
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	Is this a good one?: http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/secu...productID=1078 I just sent an email to Simon about the JVC tvs you mentioned he knew about... Is the "blue only" switch necessary for proper calibration because the less expensive monitors don't have that feature...z I guess what I'm trying ask is if the cheapest "monitor" i.e. the JVC Presentation monitors at B&H are better to use than a regular TV for the purpose of an external preview in Vegas? such as JVC TM-A13SU - 13" - $209 JVC TM-21A2U - 21" - $219 JVC TM-A13UCV - 13" - $235 Why is the 21" around the same price as the 13" ones? Last edited by Mike Costantini; October 6th, 2006 at 09:40 PM.

October 5th, 2006, 08:57 PM	#3
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	"Computer imagery should be big to work well on a TV.... so you need to zoom in." Not sure what you mean there? I downloaded that Nokia program - I don't have any clue what to do with it. The help file is totally lame, no real directions in it...

October 5th, 2006, 11:07 PM	#4
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	1- I assumed you were doing screen captures of PC application. In that case, you want the pixels to be roughly 1:1. This may be a bad assumption on my part and may not apply to you. 2- The Nokia program: Wait, you're right about lack of instructions. Anyways, here's instructions: Let monitor warm up for 20 mins. Get rid of as much light hitting the monitor as possible. Turn off lights, block glare. Display black on the edges of your monitor. The fourth pattern under colors in the Nokia tool will work. Adjust the H position of the monitor to either extreme. Look at the edge of the active picture. The correct "brightness" setting is when you can just barely not see the difference. You want black to correspond to no light emitted from the monitor. Put the horizontal position back. Contrast: If it hurts your eyes, turn contrast down. For a computer monitor, turn it up just before the point where image distortion hits. Check this with the high voltage and focus test patterns in the Nokia tool. In the High voltage tool, watch the pattern alternate. Look at the edges and see if the geometry changes. Convergence: If your monitor has a convergence setting, play around with it while looking at the convergence patterns. Start with the white pattern- it may be the only one you need. Gain / color temperature / user RGB: display a black & white image on all your computer monitors and your external preview monitor. Adjust user RGB until the black and white images look more similar. Let your eyes look at one monitor for several seconds, then look at another monitor to see if the whites look perfectly white. Use a real world image, not a test pattern. Geometry settings on your monitor: Play around with these in conjunction with the geometry test patterns. Lines should be straight, especially in the corners.

October 6th, 2006, 01:04 PM	#5
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	I'll have to give all this a try later today - I have a color temperature setting on my monitor. What should it be on 6500K or 9300K?

October 6th, 2006, 01:15 PM	#7
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	Oh, I meant on my computer monitor, for editing. Should I have it at 6500 or 9300 before I do the calibration. In other words, when a customer buys a DVD and he plays it on his computer, would his default be 6500 or 9300? Also, what is the $$$ on that JVC monitor?

October 7th, 2006, 12:37 PM	#10
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	Thanks for the detailed reply - so just to clarify, do you think it would be better to buy the inexpensive JVC montiors I listed above that range from $200-300 instead of a small TV? I'm trying to determine if even the cheapest monitor is better to use as my preview device than a regular TV. Or do I have to buy a more expensive monitor ($400+) to get any benefit from having a monitor as opposed to a TV?

October 7th, 2006, 02:20 PM	#12
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	Ok that's what I wanted to know. Actually, what you said about them not being available isn't true. There's many CRT consumer TVs out there that have S-Video and/or composite inputs less than 20" so I think I will probably just go with one of those as my application isn't THAT critical when I really stop and think about it (music instructional DVDs)

October 7th, 2006, 04:51 PM	#14
Mike Costantini Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 154	I went on circuit city's website just a bit ago, and they have three candidates I'm going to look at. All three are 20" and the brands are Samsung, Magnavox and Symphonic I think it was.. All three have S-Video and you can access the menu functions from the TV itself and don't have to use the remote.. So in a little while I'm going to go look at the three TVs at circuit city... Any suggestions based on brand alone? You can see the TVs on their website.