HDTV makes film look like video at DVinfo.net

Ben Gurvich · October 31st, 2004, 01:09 AM

Hi all,

I just setup my friends brand new HDTV Compatible Phillips 86cm 16:9 TV with SD digital set top box. The picture looks pretty damn good for video but when watching films it made everything look and feel like video.

Last night they showed "Back to the future 2" and "Batman and Robin". It seriously looked like they had done a reshoot on digibeta,I even asked myself is this a strange dream.

I found particulary in Batman all the sets looked fake, and the movement looked interlaced. I am wondering if this has anything to do with my friends 100hrz crt, or is all digital TV on CRT's like this.

Any light on this issue?

Cheers,
Ben

Yi Fong Yu · October 31st, 2004, 04:32 PM

are you watching DVD or signal from SD digital set top box? cause if from set top box you really need HD box to take advantage of HDTV.

Ben Gurvich · October 31st, 2004, 08:12 PM

NO DVD was fine, the movies wer being broadcast in SD, and they do not look like that on Analog.

Jose di Cani · November 7th, 2004, 05:47 PM

why should I buy HD tv or HD -cams. I don't see why this is so hot nowadays. In a couple of more years (5-10) there will undoubtably be more HDV camcorders to choose from (and prices will come down?) IN the meanwhile you can better invest in working technology like xl2, dvx100, pd150, gm3/xm3 from one year from now)

that is my 8 cents!

Ben Gurvich · November 7th, 2004, 08:16 PM

I guess the tempation is there if youve got a project you really wanna make, you really need to add as much production value as possible. HD is one way to do that becasue even if it looks terrible, you can pitch it as being HD.

Cheers,
Ben

Ben Gurvich · May 11th, 2005, 05:53 AM

After having another look at my friends TV recently i noticed that if you changed the pciture effect from something like "purescene 1250" to "100hz" it makes film look like film again and fixes the problem. The effect was decidely "to real" looking hence the video comparison.

It is facinating though to change the effect on and off when watching a movie and see what it really looked like on the set, as it were.

Ben Gurvich · January 12th, 2008, 05:49 AM

I came accross this at www.hdforindies.com

"Recently, looking around in Fry's and on another occasion, at Best Buy, I was shocked to see a Sony LCD showing Pirates of the Caribbean that had somehow changed the image to look like video. On further research, I found out that the 120Hz TV (that does not offer 5:5 for 24p source material) and the set's internal way of processing (probably doubling the 3:2 pulldown sequence to get to 120Hz) creates this lack of motion blur. As far as I know, 120Hz technology is supposed to fix one of the major problems with LCD technology -the motion lag (maybe not the correct term). So I guess it does that and then some. I still had a problem with all of the motion artifacting but this may be due to the source material (who knows what) or their way of splitting up the signal to 50 TVs.

I found that I'm not the only one to notice this problem:

see this review: http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/1207lcd/"

If you read this link it talks about the 'video' look being achieved through motion blur reduction technology.

I was lucky enough to see this same cadence again as i recently visited my friends house after all this time. This time they had a Philips plasma, and to my suprised it had the exact same effect. I could have sat there watching movies all day, just to see what they looked like if they were shot on video.

So... 3 years later but i guess this was what i was talking about!

John DeLuca · January 12th, 2008, 10:48 PM

This came up in the AV science forum too. The 120Hz on my Sony XBR4 can easily be turned on or off depending on the content viewed (turn off for film). You want 120Hz turned on for sports, certain video games, animated/reality tv ect. The sales floor at best buy probably leaves the 120Hz on all the time and shuffles random content throughout the day.

Josh Bass · January 13th, 2008, 01:08 AM

I saw this same phenomenon at Circuit City recently. I thought maybe I was watching the video tap footage or something. . .some kinda DVD extra. Now I know.

Christopher Lefchik · February 19th, 2008, 01:06 AM

On the Sony XBR4/XBR5 LCD sets the 120 MHz refresh cannot be disabled. I understand this is not the case with the Samsung sets which feature 120 MHz refresh rates. However, on the Sony XBR sets the interpolation which can create new frames (aka "Motionflow") can be disabled. XBR4/XBR5 sets can also accept a 24 Hz signal, which, combined with the 120 MHz panel refresh rate enables the Sony sets to display a true 24 fps image without the 2:3 cadence created by the telecine process. Of course, this requires a 24 Hz capable source, like a Blu-Ray Disc player.

Josh Bass · February 19th, 2008, 05:35 AM

I've also noticed that these sets, with an HD signal, are "too sharp". Somehow sharper than it could possibly have looked during the theatrical release. You can just see every little detail in everything, if DOF isn't blurring it.

Greg Boston · February 19th, 2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose di Cani

why should I buy HD tv or HD -cams. I don't see why this is so hot nowadays. In a couple of more years (5-10) there will undoubtably be more HDV camcorders to choose from (and prices will come down?) IN the meanwhile you can better invest in working technology like xl2, dvx100, pd150, gm3/xm3 from one year from now)

that is my 8 cents!

Yours is a common reaction from those who live in Europe where vertical picture resolution is higher under the existing standard. So no, you won't see as much difference as those of us in the NTSC areas do. In the US, the difference between SD and HD is quite a lot.

-gb-

Christopher Lefchik · February 19th, 2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

I've also noticed that these sets, with an HD signal, are "too sharp". Somehow sharper than it could possibly have looked during the theatrical release. You can just see every little detail in everything, if DOF isn't blurring it.

That's probably partly a visual characteristic of HD fixed pixel displays, as opposed to HD CRTs. However, a set's adjustments can make a huge difference as well. A set rarely comes from the factory with the optimal settings. Plus, everyone has different tastes. Turning down the sharpness and any edge enhancement could alleviate the effect you describe.

Josh Bass · February 19th, 2008, 07:23 PM

You don't agree?

They have some of these sets at Blockbuster (yes I still go the store), and they were playing the Fifth Element last time I was in, and it looked like something shot on the XL2.

Brian Tori · February 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM

I too noticed this effect at a local Best Buy. The player was a Samsung unit and so was the set. The demo was from Pirates 3. I noticed immediately that the image looked more like video than film. It looked as if it was shot 60i. The motion and sharpness looked like HD video instead of film. I then noticed that the set was a 120hz unit. This must be what is causing this effect.

October 31st, 2004, 01:09 AM	#1
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	HDTV makes film look like video Hi all, I just setup my friends brand new HDTV Compatible Phillips 86cm 16:9 TV with SD digital set top box. The picture looks pretty damn good for video but when watching films it made everything look and feel like video. Last night they showed "Back to the future 2" and "Batman and Robin". It seriously looked like they had done a reshoot on digibeta,I even asked myself is this a strange dream. I found particulary in Batman all the sets looked fake, and the movement looked interlaced. I am wondering if this has anything to do with my friends 100hrz crt, or is all digital TV on CRT's like this. Any light on this issue? Cheers, Ben

October 31st, 2004, 04:32 PM	#2
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	are you watching DVD or signal from SD digital set top box? cause if from set top box you really need HD box to take advantage of HDTV. __________________ bow wow wow

January 12th, 2008, 05:49 AM	#7
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	3 years later maybe an answer. I came accross this at www.hdforindies.com "Recently, looking around in Fry's and on another occasion, at Best Buy, I was shocked to see a Sony LCD showing Pirates of the Caribbean that had somehow changed the image to look like video. On further research, I found out that the 120Hz TV (that does not offer 5:5 for 24p source material) and the set's internal way of processing (probably doubling the 3:2 pulldown sequence to get to 120Hz) creates this lack of motion blur. As far as I know, 120Hz technology is supposed to fix one of the major problems with LCD technology -the motion lag (maybe not the correct term). So I guess it does that and then some. I still had a problem with all of the motion artifacting but this may be due to the source material (who knows what) or their way of splitting up the signal to 50 TVs. I found that I'm not the only one to notice this problem: see this review: http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/1207lcd/" If you read this link it talks about the 'video' look being achieved through motion blur reduction technology. I was lucky enough to see this same cadence again as i recently visited my friends house after all this time. This time they had a Philips plasma, and to my suprised it had the exact same effect. I could have sat there watching movies all day, just to see what they looked like if they were shot on video. So... 3 years later but i guess this was what i was talking about!

January 13th, 2008, 01:08 AM	#9
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	I saw this same phenomenon at Circuit City recently. I thought maybe I was watching the video tap footage or something. . .some kinda DVD extra. Now I know. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

February 19th, 2008, 05:35 AM	#11
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	I've also noticed that these sets, with an HD signal, are "too sharp". Somehow sharper than it could possibly have looked during the theatrical release. You can just see every little detail in everything, if DOF isn't blurring it. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

October 31st, 2004, 08:12 PM	#3
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	NO DVD was fine, the movies wer being broadcast in SD, and they do not look like that on Analog.

November 7th, 2004, 05:47 PM	#4
Jose di Cani Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Holland, Europe Posts: 214	why should I buy HD tv or HD -cams. I don't see why this is so hot nowadays. In a couple of more years (5-10) there will undoubtably be more HDV camcorders to choose from (and prices will come down?) IN the meanwhile you can better invest in working technology like xl2, dvx100, pd150, gm3/xm3 from one year from now) that is my 8 cents!

November 7th, 2004, 08:16 PM	#5
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	I guess the tempation is there if youve got a project you really wanna make, you really need to add as much production value as possible. HD is one way to do that becasue even if it looks terrible, you can pitch it as being HD. Cheers, Ben

May 11th, 2005, 05:53 AM	#6
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	After having another look at my friends TV recently i noticed that if you changed the pciture effect from something like "purescene 1250" to "100hz" it makes film look like film again and fixes the problem. The effect was decidely "to real" looking hence the video comparison. It is facinating though to change the effect on and off when watching a movie and see what it really looked like on the set, as it were.

January 12th, 2008, 10:48 PM	#8
John DeLuca Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 496	This came up in the AV science forum too. The 120Hz on my Sony XBR4 can easily be turned on or off depending on the content viewed (turn off for film). You want 120Hz turned on for sports, certain video games, animated/reality tv ect. The sales floor at best buy probably leaves the 120Hz on all the time and shuffles random content throughout the day.

February 19th, 2008, 01:06 AM	#10
Christopher Lefchik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: US Posts: 1,152	On the Sony XBR4/XBR5 LCD sets the 120 MHz refresh cannot be disabled. I understand this is not the case with the Samsung sets which feature 120 MHz refresh rates. However, on the Sony XBR sets the interpolation which can create new frames (aka "Motionflow") can be disabled. XBR4/XBR5 sets can also accept a 24 Hz signal, which, combined with the 120 MHz panel refresh rate enables the Sony sets to display a true 24 fps image without the 2:3 cadence created by the telecine process. Of course, this requires a 24 Hz capable source, like a Blu-Ray Disc player.

February 19th, 2008, 07:23 PM	#14
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	You don't agree? They have some of these sets at Blockbuster (yes I still go the store), and they were playing the Fifth Element last time I was in, and it looked like something shot on the XL2. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

February 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM	#15
Brian Tori Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 408	I too noticed this effect at a local Best Buy. The player was a Samsung unit and so was the set. The demo was from Pirates 3. I noticed immediately that the image looked more like video than film. It looked as if it was shot 60i. The motion and sharpness looked like HD video instead of film. I then noticed that the set was a 120hz unit. This must be what is causing this effect.