Small HD Finally is here

Buba Kastorski · April 30th, 2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor Meeks

So you expected it to be a $400 monitor? Dream on!

my friend, I am no cheap, and it's not even about price, it's about keeping your promises to your potential customers,
If company go 100% price increase before even product released, it means they lied to me since the beginning, OR they have no clue what they doing; in both cases I'm not their customer
but I'm glad it's so easy to please some people

Paul Mailath · April 30th, 2009, 08:24 PM

let's play nicely boys and girls - everyone has a right to their opinion, after all it's their money they will or won't be spending on smallHD - if we don't behave principal Hurd will lock this thread as well

SHHHH - he's coming down the hallway! get back to your seats and look busy!

Charles Papert · April 30th, 2009, 09:33 PM

Consider me flashing my "Wrangler" badge at you guys, although I'm more like the substitute teacher to Chris' principal...!

I will say this: I have seen a lot of products announced in the past few years that have either taken much longer to ship than projected dates, cost more or just plain fail to materialize. I think a lot of it has do with people being swayed by the concept that they can build something much cheaper than the "establishment" companies after adding up the cost of the raw materials, and then finding out the hard way that mass production, dealing with vendors (especially overseas) and all of the other nightmares of manufacturing are factors that they didn't anticipate--actually, it's virtually impossible to anticipate all of the potential speedbumps with today's ever changing economy.

Honestly, I find there is a rather greedy trend in the indie world , where the expectation is for products to cost a fraction of what they did a few years ago, which has inspired so many people to go into manufacturing. Couple this with the tendency to pre-announce products way before they are ready, either out of the belief that this will drum up pre-sales (maybe it's just the current fascination with announcing everything about one's lives and aspirations to the world). I know nothing about Small HD, so I can't comment on that company, but if they discovered along the way that their original plan of an inexpensive monitor was not feasible, or that the end product would be much improved if they had to raise the price and did so, I personally see that as an intelligent decision for both themselves and the end user.

Very few startups can afford to take a loss on their initial product line. RED is not a business model that most small companies can emulate, unless they have that kind of seed money. Unfortunately many have attempted to copy their early and often message board hype/shroud-of-mystery/changing-the-world marketing style, some even down to collecting deposits, and quite a few have embarrassed themselves in the process.

Leo Versola · May 2nd, 2009, 01:55 PM

Pre-ordering is almost upon us... I still have not gotten a consensus in opinions from anywhere whether all the extra options on the new Marshall monitors outweigh the increased resolution of the SmallHD monitors or vice-versa. I'm teetering on the fence about which one...

Discussion anyone?

Marshall V-LCD70P-HDMI (around $950)
· High resolution 800 x 480 LCD panel
· 7" diagonal screen
· Durable, thin, and lightweight construction
· 250 cd/m² brightness, 400:1 contrast ratio
· 4 user-configurable function buttons
· Scratch Resistant Protective Screen
· RGB gain and bias control

· False Color On/Off
· Peaking Filter On/Off
· RGB Check Field / Field Detect
· 15:9, 16:9, 4:3, 1:1 Pixel-to-Pixel modes
· Variety of Markers
· Viewing angle L/R: 140°
· Viewing angle U/D: 100°
· 12W power consumption
· 1.3 pounds
· Video loop-through for component / composite
· Variety of User-Replaceable Battery Adapters available*

SmallHD ($749 pre-order)
· High resolution 1280 x 768 LCD panel
· 8.9" diagonal screen
· 300 cd/m² brightness, 500:1 contrast ratio
· RGB gain controls
· 178 degree viewing angle all directions
· < 10W power consumption
· 1.6 pounds

Trevor Meeks · May 2nd, 2009, 06:27 PM

smallHD - "focus HD in HD."

marshall - "focus HD in... wait i can't tell if i'm shooting HD or... IS that in focus?"

First of all I wouldn't spend $950 on a monitor that isn't HD (it's what, HALF of 720p, not even?)

people get so caught up on features. try and focus on what's really important. In my opinion, SmallHD is a true winner, and I cannot wait to get mine.

Andrew Dean · May 3rd, 2009, 07:40 AM

Its a tough call, Leo.

You asked for a discussion, so i'll ramble my thoughts I've been having in no particular order.

1. ok, obviously resolution is the big one here. There are lots of reports saying that a high quality downsampler can make a lower rez image look superior to a slightly higher rez image created by an inferior downsampler. That sounds reasonable to me. But, 800x480 vs 1280x768 is 384,000 vs 983,040 pixels. Thats over two and a half times more pixels in the smallhd, or almost 600,000 more pixels (give or take depending on aspect ratio). I have a hard time imagining you could downsample an image so well it could make up that much difference. For critical focus like with a 35 adapter, i think the extra resolution will be extremely useful. And for 720p cameras, the unsampled image should be as good as it gets. But, yes, this is a fair bit of theoretical speculation for now. I've heard people discuss a point of diminishing returns for pixel density, and while i believe that, i've also found screens a similar density to the DP1 (the 800x480 screen the size of a business card on the cowan A3 for example) to be extremely pleasing and very easy to determine focus on clips scaled down and played back on the device at full rez (but not when captured live in SD)

2. menu buttons. I'm torn. On the one hand, having dedicated function buttons and knobs in the front makes a lot of sense. On the other, if I have the screen mounted on the camera or rails, then i want the least amount of object blocking my forward view. I ran into this with a portable dvd player we played with using as a camera monitor. That extra inch at the bottom of the marshall would annoy me and take away valuable peripheral vision. On the other hand, if i needed to access functions like 1:1 on the fly, then having the menu buttons on the back might be even more annoying. For the most part i don't imagine needing ready access to color/contrast knobs, nor would i prefer those functions as knobs since again, I wouldn't think i'd adjust them often. If the DP1 is as sharp as I imagine, then it might not even be necessary to use the 1:1 feature so having the buttons hidden away on the back might be fine. Thats a lot of speculation though, and one that can't really be answered without handling the two units.

3. Battery options. I looked in to various "pro battery" options when shopping for batteries for my cool lights LEDs. I was seriously shocked by not only how much the batteries cost but how much the charger was for these options. If i already had a pro-battery charging solution for a camera then the AB/etc mount options of the marshall might persuade me. If not, you can easily double the price of the monitor with a pro battery and charger. For my LEDs, i opted for a pair of tekkeon batteries with the piggyback battery that doubles their duration to 14ah or whatever. I also bought a half dozen 7ah sealed lead acid batteries with "spotlight bags" for cheap. However, the beauty of the DP1 and the lcd70p is how they only weigh 1.6lbs. The last thing i want to do is clamp a 3-5lb battery to it.

The smallHD battery intrigues me. Seems like a nice compact and lightweight solution. But there arent many specs on it, so who knows how much it actually weighs? It does look small.

If i shot with one type of camera, then the marshall's option to have a battery mount to match your camera battery is pretty cool. You could stock up on batteries and use the same one for both camera and monitor. I tend to bounce around using my grip gear with other people's cameras so if it doesn't match the camera i'm using at the moment, then no battery has an implicit advantage over any other. If the smallhd batteries are fast to charge and lightweight, then I reckon they'd be nice to use when the monitor is floating, and i'd use one of the more serious battery solutions when its mounted. Could easily do the same w/ the marshall and, say, a sony L mount, so it really depends on what you already have invested i suppose.

4. Brightness. smallhd is 300, marshall is 250. Thats a reasonably small difference. I doubt you'd see much of a naked-eye distinction and both would be invisible in sunlight without a serious sunshade. Close enough to not be a buying decision, really.

5. VGA input. heh. well. This would never be a selling point for me, but I like the idea of hooking up the smallHD to a battery and my laptop and having a second screen while running off battery. hehe. Could be the coolest geek on the train/plane. ha.

6. Durability. Hard to predict from specs. The anodized case should be a bombshell on the dp1... but that doesnt do anything to protect the face of the monitor, which is the same weak point on any monitor. The bezel on the marshall looks like it might protrude and protect a bit, but i cant tell from the renders whether the DP1 does the same. As a whole, Marshall monitors are well built and sturdy. I haven't been happy with the image quality of any i've seen, but the build quality and durability seem great. And the 70p claims scratch resistance, which is cool. Not sure what the dp1 has to offer on that front.

7. Brand. Well, Marshall has the advantage there by far. Its an established brand, a known reputation with supply chain backing. SmallHD is an upstart indy gearmaker who has zero reputation (negative according to some) and is trying to get enough direct sale preorders together to buffer the astronomical initial-run cost and make this sustainable.

I guess it all depends on your personality and perspective as to how big a risk it is. You can easily (and validly) see ordering a dp1 (especially preordering) as a gamble. As charles pointed out, though, its not like they are building components from the ground up. The screen, the controller, the power system... these are all standardized components. The value smallhd is bringing has been in sourcing the best and highest rez components they could find (after a YEAR of searching and comparing) negotiating small orders from the suppliers, and engineering a thoughtful and elegant (if not badass) case for it. Its not really that different from an upstart stripmall pc assembler sourcing parts for a wicked-fast machine vs. buying a less powerful machine for the same cost from a known brand like gateway/dell. Some people would never consider buying a dell, some would never consider buying a pc without a brand label.

The more I've weighed it, the more i've been sold on smallHD. Not "sold" like i want a smallhd tattoo or anything, but sold that their vision for what they want their monitors to be is very close to what I would build were I in their shoes. Dripping with resolution, the core useful features and a sexy case with heaps of rugged mounting points. You can price out the components yourself and see there isnt much margin here. If you bought the parts, and paid a reasonable price for the custom machined case, then a reasonable fee to have someone else assemble the unit, I reckon you'd be pretty close to where smallhd is now for the preorder.

After all the discussion I've decided to get back in line for a smallhd preorder. I need a director/focus monitor and was basically sold on the manhattanlcd while curious about the smallhd. After really poring over smallhd's offering, i'm drawn to the case and the extra 368,000 pixels the dp1 has over the manhattan. In terms of value, I think its steps ahead of the manhattan and leaps over the marshall.

I suppose we'll see!

heh.

Any discussions on my discussion, Leo? I realize we all weigh various features differently, but if I've said something inaccurate, please holler.

Leo Versola · May 3rd, 2009, 10:34 AM

Great food for discussion Andrew, thanks! And you hit on many points that I too, have been mulling over. I've got to run out right now but I will definitely jump back on the thread as soon as I'm back...

Cheers,

Trevor Meeks · May 4th, 2009, 10:12 PM

my order is in! Thanks Dale!

Preorder Here: SmallHD.com - 8.9" High Definition - the DP1

Leo Versola · May 4th, 2009, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor Meeks

my order is in! Thanks Dale!

Preorder Here: SmallHD.com - 8.9" High Definition - the DP1

Great! I've been trying to place my order for over 30 minutes and it just won't go through :-( Called Dale and he said the servers must be slammed and to just keep trying!

EDIT: Alright, it finally went through... Probably way down the list now :-(

Trevor Meeks · May 4th, 2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Versola

Great! I've been trying to place my order for over 30 minutes and it just won't go through :-( Called Dale and he said the servers must be slammed and to just keep trying!

EDIT: Alright, it finally went through... Probably way down the list now :-(

;) I think I was #3 or so. Don't worry, you'll be fine! I'm interested to know how many they'll get during this 24 hour period... are we gonna take bets?

Garrett Low · May 5th, 2009, 12:01 AM

I was busy until around 9:40 Pacific Time (12:40 ET) so i didn't get my order in until around 9:42. I emailed Dale to find out if there was anyway to tell what number in line I am in by my order number which is like 283108.

Did anyone order any accessories or batteries?

Garrett

Justin Carlson · May 5th, 2009, 12:20 AM

I'm order #283051.

I ordered:

Black DP1 (with neoprene sleeve)
2 Batteries
Battery Mount
Sunhood
U-Bracket

Does anyone know when they're expected to ship?

Garrett Low · May 5th, 2009, 12:33 AM

I believe they are suppose to start shipping units on May 25th. Hopefully I'm like 108 in line and not 3108.. :(

Miklos Konczol · May 5th, 2009, 12:40 AM

I ordered mine also... it was a hard decision (hope my wife will not see the price:) )

Dale, PLS show us some picture with red, d5markII, THX!

PS: order noumber:#: 283203

also ordered aku and bracket,

Trevor Meeks · May 5th, 2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Carlson

I'm order #283051.

I ordered:

Black DP1 (with neoprene sleeve)
2 Batteries
Battery Mount
Sunhood
U-Bracket

Does anyone know when they're expected to ship?

Justin, I must have been right before you at #283047

Got the same stuff, except for the sunhood and U-bracket. I may have to add the sunhood on to my order, but we'll see.

Looking forward to the shipments, I can't wait to actually have a good monitor on set!

April 30th, 2009, 08:24 PM	#32
Paul Mailath Trustee Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Coast - NSW, Australia Posts: 1,606	let's play nicely boys and girls - everyone has a right to their opinion, after all it's their money they will or won't be spending on smallHD - if we don't behave principal Hurd will lock this thread as well SHHHH - he's coming down the hallway! get back to your seats and look busy! __________________ Cheers - Paul M. www.perbenyik.com

April 30th, 2009, 09:33 PM	#33
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Consider me flashing my "Wrangler" badge at you guys, although I'm more like the substitute teacher to Chris' principal...! I will say this: I have seen a lot of products announced in the past few years that have either taken much longer to ship than projected dates, cost more or just plain fail to materialize. I think a lot of it has do with people being swayed by the concept that they can build something much cheaper than the "establishment" companies after adding up the cost of the raw materials, and then finding out the hard way that mass production, dealing with vendors (especially overseas) and all of the other nightmares of manufacturing are factors that they didn't anticipate--actually, it's virtually impossible to anticipate all of the potential speedbumps with today's ever changing economy. Honestly, I find there is a rather greedy trend in the indie world , where the expectation is for products to cost a fraction of what they did a few years ago, which has inspired so many people to go into manufacturing. Couple this with the tendency to pre-announce products way before they are ready, either out of the belief that this will drum up pre-sales (maybe it's just the current fascination with announcing everything about one's lives and aspirations to the world). I know nothing about Small HD, so I can't comment on that company, but if they discovered along the way that their original plan of an inexpensive monitor was not feasible, or that the end product would be much improved if they had to raise the price and did so, I personally see that as an intelligent decision for both themselves and the end user. Very few startups can afford to take a loss on their initial product line. RED is not a business model that most small companies can emulate, unless they have that kind of seed money. Unfortunately many have attempted to copy their early and often message board hype/shroud-of-mystery/changing-the-world marketing style, some even down to collecting deposits, and quite a few have embarrassed themselves in the process. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

May 3rd, 2009, 07:40 AM	#36
Andrew Dean Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Motukarara, New Zealand Posts: 475	discussion Its a tough call, Leo. You asked for a discussion, so i'll ramble my thoughts I've been having in no particular order. 1. ok, obviously resolution is the big one here. There are lots of reports saying that a high quality downsampler can make a lower rez image look superior to a slightly higher rez image created by an inferior downsampler. That sounds reasonable to me. But, 800x480 vs 1280x768 is 384,000 vs 983,040 pixels. Thats over two and a half times more pixels in the smallhd, or almost 600,000 more pixels (give or take depending on aspect ratio). I have a hard time imagining you could downsample an image so well it could make up that much difference. For critical focus like with a 35 adapter, i think the extra resolution will be extremely useful. And for 720p cameras, the unsampled image should be as good as it gets. But, yes, this is a fair bit of theoretical speculation for now. I've heard people discuss a point of diminishing returns for pixel density, and while i believe that, i've also found screens a similar density to the DP1 (the 800x480 screen the size of a business card on the cowan A3 for example) to be extremely pleasing and very easy to determine focus on clips scaled down and played back on the device at full rez (but not when captured live in SD) 2. menu buttons. I'm torn. On the one hand, having dedicated function buttons and knobs in the front makes a lot of sense. On the other, if I have the screen mounted on the camera or rails, then i want the least amount of object blocking my forward view. I ran into this with a portable dvd player we played with using as a camera monitor. That extra inch at the bottom of the marshall would annoy me and take away valuable peripheral vision. On the other hand, if i needed to access functions like 1:1 on the fly, then having the menu buttons on the back might be even more annoying. For the most part i don't imagine needing ready access to color/contrast knobs, nor would i prefer those functions as knobs since again, I wouldn't think i'd adjust them often. If the DP1 is as sharp as I imagine, then it might not even be necessary to use the 1:1 feature so having the buttons hidden away on the back might be fine. Thats a lot of speculation though, and one that can't really be answered without handling the two units. 3. Battery options. I looked in to various "pro battery" options when shopping for batteries for my cool lights LEDs. I was seriously shocked by not only how much the batteries cost but how much the charger was for these options. If i already had a pro-battery charging solution for a camera then the AB/etc mount options of the marshall might persuade me. If not, you can easily double the price of the monitor with a pro battery and charger. For my LEDs, i opted for a pair of tekkeon batteries with the piggyback battery that doubles their duration to 14ah or whatever. I also bought a half dozen 7ah sealed lead acid batteries with "spotlight bags" for cheap. However, the beauty of the DP1 and the lcd70p is how they only weigh 1.6lbs. The last thing i want to do is clamp a 3-5lb battery to it. The smallHD battery intrigues me. Seems like a nice compact and lightweight solution. But there arent many specs on it, so who knows how much it actually weighs? It does look small. If i shot with one type of camera, then the marshall's option to have a battery mount to match your camera battery is pretty cool. You could stock up on batteries and use the same one for both camera and monitor. I tend to bounce around using my grip gear with other people's cameras so if it doesn't match the camera i'm using at the moment, then no battery has an implicit advantage over any other. If the smallhd batteries are fast to charge and lightweight, then I reckon they'd be nice to use when the monitor is floating, and i'd use one of the more serious battery solutions when its mounted. Could easily do the same w/ the marshall and, say, a sony L mount, so it really depends on what you already have invested i suppose. 4. Brightness. smallhd is 300, marshall is 250. Thats a reasonably small difference. I doubt you'd see much of a naked-eye distinction and both would be invisible in sunlight without a serious sunshade. Close enough to not be a buying decision, really. 5. VGA input. heh. well. This would never be a selling point for me, but I like the idea of hooking up the smallHD to a battery and my laptop and having a second screen while running off battery. hehe. Could be the coolest geek on the train/plane. ha. 6. Durability. Hard to predict from specs. The anodized case should be a bombshell on the dp1... but that doesnt do anything to protect the face of the monitor, which is the same weak point on any monitor. The bezel on the marshall looks like it might protrude and protect a bit, but i cant tell from the renders whether the DP1 does the same. As a whole, Marshall monitors are well built and sturdy. I haven't been happy with the image quality of any i've seen, but the build quality and durability seem great. And the 70p claims scratch resistance, which is cool. Not sure what the dp1 has to offer on that front. 7. Brand. Well, Marshall has the advantage there by far. Its an established brand, a known reputation with supply chain backing. SmallHD is an upstart indy gearmaker who has zero reputation (negative according to some) and is trying to get enough direct sale preorders together to buffer the astronomical initial-run cost and make this sustainable. I guess it all depends on your personality and perspective as to how big a risk it is. You can easily (and validly) see ordering a dp1 (especially preordering) as a gamble. As charles pointed out, though, its not like they are building components from the ground up. The screen, the controller, the power system... these are all standardized components. The value smallhd is bringing has been in sourcing the best and highest rez components they could find (after a YEAR of searching and comparing) negotiating small orders from the suppliers, and engineering a thoughtful and elegant (if not badass) case for it. Its not really that different from an upstart stripmall pc assembler sourcing parts for a wicked-fast machine vs. buying a less powerful machine for the same cost from a known brand like gateway/dell. Some people would never consider buying a dell, some would never consider buying a pc without a brand label. The more I've weighed it, the more i've been sold on smallHD. Not "sold" like i want a smallhd tattoo or anything, but sold that their vision for what they want their monitors to be is very close to what I would build were I in their shoes. Dripping with resolution, the core useful features and a sexy case with heaps of rugged mounting points. You can price out the components yourself and see there isnt much margin here. If you bought the parts, and paid a reasonable price for the custom machined case, then a reasonable fee to have someone else assemble the unit, I reckon you'd be pretty close to where smallhd is now for the preorder. After all the discussion I've decided to get back in line for a smallhd preorder. I need a director/focus monitor and was basically sold on the manhattanlcd while curious about the smallhd. After really poring over smallhd's offering, i'm drawn to the case and the extra 368,000 pixels the dp1 has over the manhattan. In terms of value, I think its steps ahead of the manhattan and leaps over the marshall. I suppose we'll see! heh. Any discussions on my discussion, Leo? I realize we all weigh various features differently, but if I've said something inaccurate, please holler.

May 5th, 2009, 12:20 AM	#42
Justin Carlson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 173	I'm order #283051. I ordered: Black DP1 (with neoprene sleeve) 2 Batteries Battery Mount Sunhood U-Bracket Does anyone know when they're expected to ship? __________________ Justin http://www.carlsonmedia.ca

May 2nd, 2009, 01:55 PM	#34
Leo Versola Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 73	Pre-ordering is almost upon us... I still have not gotten a consensus in opinions from anywhere whether all the extra options on the new Marshall monitors outweigh the increased resolution of the SmallHD monitors or vice-versa. I'm teetering on the fence about which one... Discussion anyone? Marshall V-LCD70P-HDMI (around $950) · High resolution 800 x 480 LCD panel · 7" diagonal screen · Durable, thin, and lightweight construction · 250 cd/m² brightness, 400:1 contrast ratio · 4 user-configurable function buttons · Scratch Resistant Protective Screen · RGB gain and bias control · False Color On/Off · Peaking Filter On/Off · RGB Check Field / Field Detect · 15:9, 16:9, 4:3, 1:1 Pixel-to-Pixel modes · Variety of Markers · Viewing angle L/R: 140° · Viewing angle U/D: 100° · 12W power consumption · 1.3 pounds · Video loop-through for component / composite · Variety of User-Replaceable Battery Adapters available* SmallHD ($749 pre-order) · High resolution 1280 x 768 LCD panel · 8.9" diagonal screen · 300 cd/m² brightness, 500:1 contrast ratio · RGB gain controls · 178 degree viewing angle all directions · < 10W power consumption · 1.6 pounds

May 2nd, 2009, 06:27 PM	#35
Trevor Meeks Major Player Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sonoma, CA Posts: 336	smallHD - "focus HD in HD." marshall - "focus HD in... wait i can't tell if i'm shooting HD or... IS that in focus?" First of all I wouldn't spend $950 on a monitor that isn't HD (it's what, HALF of 720p, not even?) people get so caught up on features. try and focus on what's really important. In my opinion, SmallHD is a true winner, and I cannot wait to get mine.

May 3rd, 2009, 10:34 AM	#37
Leo Versola Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 73	Great food for discussion Andrew, thanks! And you hit on many points that I too, have been mulling over. I've got to run out right now but I will definitely jump back on the thread as soon as I'm back... Cheers,

May 4th, 2009, 10:12 PM	#38
Trevor Meeks Major Player Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sonoma, CA Posts: 336	my order is in! Thanks Dale! Preorder Here: SmallHD.com - 8.9" High Definition - the DP1

May 5th, 2009, 12:01 AM	#41
Garrett Low Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 1,774	I was busy until around 9:40 Pacific Time (12:40 ET) so i didn't get my order in until around 9:42. I emailed Dale to find out if there was anyway to tell what number in line I am in by my order number which is like 283108. Did anyone order any accessories or batteries? Garrett

May 5th, 2009, 12:33 AM	#43
Garrett Low Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 1,774	I believe they are suppose to start shipping units on May 25th. Hopefully I'm like 108 in line and not 3108.. :(

May 5th, 2009, 12:40 AM	#44
Miklos Konczol Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 27	I ordered mine also... it was a hard decision (hope my wife will not see the price:) ) Dale, PLS show us some picture with red, d5markII, THX! PS: order noumber:#: 283203 also ordered aku and bracket,