120hz 19-23" LCD TV? at DVinfo.net

Jack Walker · January 8th, 2009, 05:12 PM

The only LCD TVs I can find that I can find that are 120hz are HUGE.

Can anyone point me to a smaller size that is 120HZ with HDMI in?

The pro video monitors are smaller, but they are 5 times the price of what a TV would be.

Daniel Epstein · January 8th, 2009, 08:51 PM

You would be pretty lucky to find any consumer model with actual 1080 at that size as well. 32 inch seems to be the current consumer cutoff where you can get 1080, 37 inch or so to get 120Hz. At the size you are looking the Pro models are currently your best option. Keep looking or just bite the bullet and buy something which works for you in other aspects besides the 120Hz.

Jack Walker · January 8th, 2009, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Epstein

You would be pretty lucky to find any consumer model with actual 1080 at that size as well. 32 inch seems to be the current consumer cutoff where you can get 1080, 37 inch or so to get 120Hz. At the size you are looking the Pro models are currently your best option. Keep looking or just bite the bullet and buy something which works for you in other aspects besides the 120Hz.

Is there any option under $1000 and 23" or under that will accept/display a true 24p signal on HDMI?

The pro models all are way more expensive, but they also require SDI input, so that is another $500 for an HDMIi to HDSDI converter.

Chris Soucy · January 8th, 2009, 10:24 PM

Little unsure exactly what you're after.

You've mentioned both TV's and Monitors, which are really two entirely different beasts.

As far as I can tell, 24" seem to be the cutoff for full 1080p.

Just an example from the current Dell range here:

Dell 2408WFP UltraSharp? WideScreen Flat Panel Monitor

Of course, the 120Hz thing is irrelevant in a monitor 'cos it's pretty well down to your graphics card - 24p out is going to be 24 frames/ sec no matter what, which is, I guess, where my confusion is coming from.

I've heard of/ seen 100 Hz systems in Pal land, which I guess would be a 120 Hz system in NTSC land, but, surely, they are only relevent for the respective Pal/ NTSC formatted data streams, not HD?

Not that they seem to have been particularly popular here in Pal land judgeing by their scarcity.

I keep re - reading your two posts and am getting more confused every time I do so.

Why are you interested in 120 Hz for HD?

Does not compute.

24p/ 1080p of any flavour on HDMI? Seems to be 24" and up.

Under $1000 US seem eminently possible.

CS

Jack Walker · January 8th, 2009, 10:55 PM

120 is an even multiple of 24, so 24p video is displayed directly (each frame 5 times) with no pulldown.

I am considering and Edius HDStorm HDMI card. It outputs 24p video directly and does not output 24p over a 60i signal.

This is a new feature just added with Edius 5.01.

Otherwise, if I use a 60hz monitor/display/tv, I am limited to viewing 24p as analog component and over a 60i signal with the NX card.

I have yet to find out what happens if you send the 24p signal out the HDStorm HDMI to a 60hz display.

Almost everything I am doing is in 24p, so I would like a monitoring system that shows it as true 24p, without pulldown. The HDStorm offers that, but I have not found a reasonably priced (and reasonably sized) screen to view it on.

Chris Soucy · January 9th, 2009, 04:03 AM

Guess there was a reason after all.

Well, there you go, destroyed a naturaly assumed preconception in one post.

I was obviously in error thinking that once an LCD cell was turned on, it stayed on, till it was turned off.

Seems not.

So, it seems, that LCD's decay, just like a CRT then, and thus need "refreshing" every so often?

Sorry, Jack, think I'll call this one a bluff.

It'll take a bit of persuading to get me to believe an LCD needs "refreshing".

CS

Jack Walker · January 9th, 2009, 07:08 PM

Video flashes different frames on the screen. The number of frames possible to flash depends on the electric system in combination with the electronics of the display device.

In 60hz parts of the world, the video frames have to be flashed at a multiple or factor of 60. In the 50hz parts of the world, the video frames have to be flashed at a multiple or factor of 50.

25p video flashes at 2 frames per cycle. 50i video flashes at 2 fields per cycle.

60p video flashes at 1 frame per cycle.
60i vidie flashes at 2 fields per cycle.
30p video flalshes at 2 frames per cycle.

24p video would flash at 2.5 frames per cycle, but that's not possible. Therefore, some form of pulldown is required (regular:2:3:2:3 or advance: 2:3:3:2 for example) to make the 24 frame rate match the 60hz cycling of the signal feed. The result is judder in the picture.

However, on a 120hz display device, the electronics in the device are able to display a frame of video every half cycle, and thus 2.5 frames per 60hz cycle is possible (that being 5 flashes for each frame) The result is perfect 24p playback without judder.

24p video can also play correctly on a 24hz display device, but I can't explain much about how they work. Probably the 60hz current is modified by the electronics of the display device.

Chris Soucy · January 9th, 2009, 11:49 PM

OK, I'll buy that, sort of.

Been doing a bit of research on 100/ 120 Hz machines.

Coming up with squat diddly, quite frankly.

Seems 100 Hz (CRT) machines were trialed in Europe for a while, but not many wanted to pay the premium, so they got dumped.

Don't know the story with the US, but guess it was similar.

Guess, as you say, the only people prepared to pay for 120 Hz are those who can afford to go for the big screens, hence why no small screens offer it (unless at enormous cost).

Still can't figure out (hey, I'm just a dumb Canuk, give me a break) why an "ordinary" 24p capable screen (a la that Dell I indexed in a previous post) can't do what you want?

This seems to be going straight off your PC, so if you can tell the Graphics card to do it, why do you think the screen won't do what it's told?

I'm confused (it happens, with ever increasing regularity, unfortunately).

CS

January 8th, 2009, 05:12 PM	#1
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	120hz 19-23" LCD TV? The only LCD TVs I can find that I can find that are 120hz are HUGE. Can anyone point me to a smaller size that is 120HZ with HDMI in? The pro video monitors are smaller, but they are 5 times the price of what a TV would be.

January 8th, 2009, 10:24 PM	#4
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,688 Images: 18	Hi Jack............... Little unsure exactly what you're after. You've mentioned both TV's and Monitors, which are really two entirely different beasts. As far as I can tell, 24" seem to be the cutoff for full 1080p. Just an example from the current Dell range here: Dell 2408WFP UltraSharp? WideScreen Flat Panel Monitor Of course, the 120Hz thing is irrelevant in a monitor 'cos it's pretty well down to your graphics card - 24p out is going to be 24 frames/ sec no matter what, which is, I guess, where my confusion is coming from. I've heard of/ seen 100 Hz systems in Pal land, which I guess would be a 120 Hz system in NTSC land, but, surely, they are only relevent for the respective Pal/ NTSC formatted data streams, not HD? Not that they seem to have been particularly popular here in Pal land judgeing by their scarcity. I keep re - reading your two posts and am getting more confused every time I do so. Why are you interested in 120 Hz for HD? Does not compute. 24p/ 1080p of any flavour on HDMI? Seems to be 24" and up. Under $1000 US seem eminently possible. CS

January 9th, 2009, 04:03 AM	#6
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,688 Images: 18	Ah................. Guess there was a reason after all. Well, there you go, destroyed a naturaly assumed preconception in one post. I was obviously in error thinking that once an LCD cell was turned on, it stayed on, till it was turned off. Seems not. So, it seems, that LCD's decay, just like a CRT then, and thus need "refreshing" every so often? Sorry, Jack, think I'll call this one a bluff. It'll take a bit of persuading to get me to believe an LCD needs "refreshing". CS

January 9th, 2009, 11:49 PM	#8
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,688 Images: 18	Hmm................... OK, I'll buy that, sort of. Been doing a bit of research on 100/ 120 Hz machines. Coming up with squat diddly, quite frankly. Seems 100 Hz (CRT) machines were trialed in Europe for a while, but not many wanted to pay the premium, so they got dumped. Don't know the story with the US, but guess it was similar. Guess, as you say, the only people prepared to pay for 120 Hz are those who can afford to go for the big screens, hence why no small screens offer it (unless at enormous cost). Still can't figure out (hey, I'm just a dumb Canuk, give me a break) why an "ordinary" 24p capable screen (a la that Dell I indexed in a previous post) can't do what you want? This seems to be going straight off your PC, so if you can tell the Graphics card to do it, why do you think the screen won't do what it's told? I'm confused (it happens, with ever increasing regularity, unfortunately). CS

January 8th, 2009, 08:51 PM	#2
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	You would be pretty lucky to find any consumer model with actual 1080 at that size as well. 32 inch seems to be the current consumer cutoff where you can get 1080, 37 inch or so to get 120Hz. At the size you are looking the Pro models are currently your best option. Keep looking or just bite the bullet and buy something which works for you in other aspects besides the 120Hz.

January 8th, 2009, 10:55 PM	#5
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	120 is an even multiple of 24, so 24p video is displayed directly (each frame 5 times) with no pulldown. I am considering and Edius HDStorm HDMI card. It outputs 24p video directly and does not output 24p over a 60i signal. This is a new feature just added with Edius 5.01. Otherwise, if I use a 60hz monitor/display/tv, I am limited to viewing 24p as analog component and over a 60i signal with the NX card. I have yet to find out what happens if you send the 24p signal out the HDStorm HDMI to a 60hz display. Almost everything I am doing is in 24p, so I would like a monitoring system that shows it as true 24p, without pulldown. The HDStorm offers that, but I have not found a reasonably priced (and reasonably sized) screen to view it on.

January 9th, 2009, 07:08 PM	#7
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Video flashes different frames on the screen. The number of frames possible to flash depends on the electric system in combination with the electronics of the display device. In 60hz parts of the world, the video frames have to be flashed at a multiple or factor of 60. In the 50hz parts of the world, the video frames have to be flashed at a multiple or factor of 50. 25p video flashes at 2 frames per cycle. 50i video flashes at 2 fields per cycle. 60p video flashes at 1 frame per cycle. 60i vidie flashes at 2 fields per cycle. 30p video flalshes at 2 frames per cycle. 24p video would flash at 2.5 frames per cycle, but that's not possible. Therefore, some form of pulldown is required (regular:2:3:2:3 or advance: 2:3:3:2 for example) to make the 24 frame rate match the 60hz cycling of the signal feed. The result is judder in the picture. However, on a 120hz display device, the electronics in the device are able to display a frame of video every half cycle, and thus 2.5 frames per 60hz cycle is possible (that being 5 flashes for each frame) The result is perfect 24p playback without judder. 24p video can also play correctly on a 24hz display device, but I can't explain much about how they work. Probably the 60hz current is modified by the electronics of the display device.