2 low cost HD field monitors

Gints Klimanis · September 16th, 2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Dean

well, thats disappointing. The smallhd monitor has been delayed (and changed around)

They have 2 or 3 of the 12" design like on their website available if someone wants to order now. They have shifted their efforts to an 8.9" with a "much better screen". I imagine that to mean brighter, buti suppose they could be talking about resolution.

Anyways, until they come out with something tangible and a ship date, this thread should really be titled "1 low cost HD monitor", since the manhattanlcd unit is shipping.

-a

My manhattanlcd HD monitor is in transit and should arrive tomorrow. Thanks for the update on smallhd.com . I had a little buyer's remorse when I saw the smallhd.com product, but as it turns out, they can probably only make money on a smaller screen if they're trying to undersell manhattanlcd by $100 on a larger screen. It is difficult to compare these products on specs alone.

Michael Chenoweth · September 16th, 2008, 09:52 PM

Let us know how the Manhattan LCD is -

I know Small HD is using an anodized aluminum casing while Manhattan is using ABS - I'd be interested in how durable the Manhattan LCD is. Both should be really similar in panel quality and resolution.

I bought a Small HD prototype not knowing it was just a bare aluminum chassis. I was hoping for black and am sending it back for credit towards the new model. Could be up to 2 months though so I'm curious about the Manhattan product.

Built of the SmallHD though is really nice and the LCD panel rocks. Just in too primitive state at this point for me - price is sure right though.

mike

Gints Klimanis · September 18th, 2008, 04:15 AM

I received the Manhattanlcd HD monitor today. It is lightweight at 2.38 lbs, a little heavier than listed on the web site. It looks great, and focusing is immensely easier. I was using a SonyFX820 portable DVD player with 8" 800x480. This HD monitor is so much better looking. In fact, the Sony EX1 overlays show major jaggies. While the SonyFX820 was better than the EX1's fantastic 3" LCD, the Sony just couldn't compete with the EX1 Expanded Mode view. The HD monitor easilyt beats both. I just wish that either the EX1 output the Expanded view to the HD monitor, or that the HD monitor had a zoom function. There is a Zoom button on the remote control, but it seems to create a screen tiled with row and columns of the input scaled down. What?!? Why?

The HD monitor seems sturdy enough, and I prefer it lighter weight ABS plastic casing to metal. I wonder if the RF input receiver could be removed to save space and reduce depth or save weight. I bought some swivel mounts: Tote Vision HS-1 Hot Shoe Mount for Tote Vision LCD Monitors and Delvcam DELV-SM Swivel Mount Adapter for Delvcam 5.6-Inch LCD Monitors. The Tote Vision isn't up to the job. The Delvcam is sturdy, but weighs one pound. I tried mounting this LCD to my Vortex Media VSB-1 shoulder mount, but had a hard time getting the right hardware and placement. I also tried the Sony EX1 hotshoe mount with the Devlcam, but the total weight of3.5 lbs is unwieldy for shoulder mount. It's fine for tripod use. There is defintely an issue with larger monitors in handheld operation. 8" diagonal seems to be the top of what is wieldy. Unless another technology such as OLED becomes viable, it will be hard to avoid a larger monitor whipping around and blocking your view. There are some on-monitor buttons, but they don't seem to work well, perhaps due to operational lag. Switching the input is clumsy with the front panel buttons, although easy with the included remote control.

Also, I compared SD and HS output on the Sony EX1 component output. It was hard to tell the difference, and I had to hunt for edges (used lace-like material on baby crib) to see the difference. I'll torture it some more, but it's hard to say if the downscaling by the monitor from 1080i to its native 1366x768 resolution caused the softness, or if the the monitors upscaling from 480i was equally soft or better. While it was not so find specific areas of my subjects (colorful baby toys), I can say that the HD monitor was more "alive" in 1080i than 480i. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the HD monitor. It's just that it's hard for me to see HD with such a pixel density. Any noise in the video signal destroys the HD detail on this monitor. It is very easy to see the Sony EX1 noise at +18 dB, although that camera sees better in the dark than I do with its 1/2" sensors.

I'll also add that the viewing angle isn't bad, but it suffers from the typical drop in brightness or contrast. I don't have the unit in front of me, but I remember the red shift is ok from a few angles (side? NOTE: come back to this later) but not from the bottom.

All of my experiments were with the Sony EX1 in 1080p30 recording mode driving either 1080i or 480i on the component output. It would be good to know if HDMI or SDI would provide a better monitoring solution. I would have preferred that Sony take a jump with HDMI. We would then also have access to more computer LCD panels. I'm sitting in front of two Apple 1920x1200 monitors ...

Michael Chenoweth · September 18th, 2008, 07:17 AM

Thanks for the update, Gints.

Glad to hear you speak so highly of the LCD. One of my concerns is just that. How do these LCDs handle scaling? Seeing the Nebtek 7" HD LCD at NAB this year blew me out of the water. I was so used to Marshall's crappy image IMO that the scaling in Nebtek's to the 800x480 panel was pretty dang impressive. In fact, better than I had seen to date on a panel with that resolution. Enter the 1080x769 WXGA LCD's where we think we really have better resolution, but is the scaling as good?

Would be nice to do a comparison with all the LCD's $1500 and down and really put them to the test.

I agree on the handheld weight. The Ikan 8000HD was really nice for handheld although I wasn't as confident in the build of their plastic housing as your appear to be with the Manhattan LCD. Weight was awesome and I was pretty impressed with Ikan's price point for that LCD. The plastic housings obviously allow a larger LCD if needed on the rig without becoming too much a weight problem though.

great feedback - thanks!

Gints Klimanis · September 18th, 2008, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Chenoweth

Glad to hear you speak so highly of the LCD.

It looks almost as good as the Sony EX1's 3" LCD, which is really too good. As I pointed out, the viewing angle is an issue if you're not right in front of the monitor. I think that Sony and Nikon (D30/D300) have been shipping LCDs that are better than most everything we'll be viewing the video, and that is almost unfair. Still, I'm very happy with the Manhattan HD monitor.

As for scaling, let's look into this. I'm willing to pay more for a support board with a superior scaler and a monitor with a wider viewing angle. 720P will probably be a truer image on the 1366x768 screen as it is subject to less or no scaling. There are some scaling options in the menu, but I haven't figured them out yet.

Andrew Dean · September 20th, 2008, 05:10 AM

Gints,

Thanks a ton for taking the plunge and offering your review of the manhattanlcd monitor.

Have you had a chance to take it outside yet? I'm curious just how awful it is in daylight/sunlight. Is the image viewable at all?

thanks!-
-a

Gints Klimanis · September 22nd, 2008, 04:30 PM

Andrew, I'll have more time with the unit at the end of this week. Until Wednesday, I'm involved in a shoot, although I'm in front of the camera for this one.

Matt Mullins · September 23rd, 2008, 09:51 AM

Hi Gints,
Thanks for the review. On the strength of yours and others comments I bit the bullet and ordered mine. I keep checking this thread for more monitor-crack so any other updates would be appreciated as mine is yet to arrive.
Could you post some pics of the lcd with your setup? Be good to see how you intend to mount it and also hear any other insights you have using it in a shooting scenario.

All the best,

Thanks
Matt

Gints Klimanis · September 23rd, 2008, 02:14 PM

There is some trouble with the Tekkeon battery plug adapters fitting in the manhattanlcd. It's not loose, but the connection is intermittent enough to prevent the power. I held the plug to one side, and it does work. manhattanlcd supplies a battery connector plug with the fitting plug and two wires with stripped ends. This must be resolved before trying to use this in a session, but the fallback is the included AC power adapter.

Matt Mullins · September 23rd, 2008, 02:46 PM

Not too encouraging. Have you contacted them for a solution?

Shawn Kessler · September 23rd, 2008, 02:53 PM

Wow just what i'm looking for guy's, here the question I have is there a tap wire so I can plug in to my anton bauer brick? and is the 1to1 ratio in all modes.

shawn

Andrew Dean · September 23rd, 2008, 05:31 PM

Heya Shawn,

The manhattanlcd has a 12v power input, and comes with a bare wire with the 12v connector on the end. I'm not sure what voltage the AB battery provides, but if you have a mount for it and it puts out from 8 to 12.5v, in theory you could wire it up w/ the provided cable. (anything under 8v or over 12.5v is not recommended)

As to the 1:1, I'm no longer positive either monitor shows a true 1:1. If they do, it would ONLY be at 720p, but i'm afraid it may zoom up the image to fill the 768 screen. Its 1:1 in that there is actually a pixel for every pixel in the signal, so its not scaling *down*, but I'm not sure it will do the cropping to show a true 1:1 720p signal within the 1366x768 frame. Thats still heaps better than putting 720p onto 800x480 like most pro monitors, but still.

The 1080 mode is definitely not 1:1, since the monitor is lower rez than 1080, and I haven't read anything indicating there is a "zoom to 1:1" mode. In fact, the zoom button supposedly does weird, not-useful things.

I dont have either monitor, so everything i'm spouting is based on reading specs, forum postings around the web and emails w/ the makers. So, please salt what i'm saying accordingly.

Now i'm all torn... buy the manhattanlcd now, or wait for the smallhd 8.4". hmmm.

I emailed manhattanlcd asking about transflective screens. He indicated that the monitor has brightness enhancement films installed, but which ones i'm not sure. Its definitely not transflective, and is probably invisible in direct sunlight. The question remains whether its invisible in indirect high ambient light. The sony 9" crt we've been using is completely and totally useless outdoors here in nz. Gotta drape a bunch of towels over it and have the director huddle under them squinting... so i'm quite keen for a really bright (500+ nits) solution.

Gints Klimanis · September 24th, 2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Mullins

Not too encouraging. Have you contacted them for a solution?

Them being Tekkeon or manhattanlcd ? I think manhattanlcd provided the solution by including the proper connector and two wires. From there, all that is needed is an additional wire+Tekkeon battery-side plug. Then, you splice/clamp the wires together. In any case, the Tekkeon connector is of adequate length if the monitor is within a foot of the battery. Since I want to stick the battery in the back-side compartment of my Vortex shoulder mount to be used as counter weight, the Tekkeon cord is a bit on the short side.

Gints Klimanis · September 24th, 2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Dean

Heya Shawn,
Now i'm all torn... buy the manhattanlcd now, or wait for the smallhd 8.4". hmmm.

If the smallhd is only 8.4", I think it will be difficult to actually discern HD from SD. In my initial experiments, the manhattanlcd was good, but you really had to look hard at edges to tell the difference up close.

Their 12" 1280x720p solution is more enticing if it is actually cheaper because it is also smaller. If you aren't mobile, I think a larger, 15" commercial 720p TV solution with a built-in stand is better for monitoring and your wallet.

Matt Mullins · September 24th, 2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

Them being Tekkeon or manhattanlcd ? I think manhattanlcd provided the solution by including the proper connector and two wires. From there, all that is needed is an additional wire+Tekkeon battery-side plug. Then, you splice/clamp the wires together. In any case, the Tekkeon connector is of adequate length if the monitor is within a foot of the battery. Since I want to stick the battery in the back-side compartment of my Vortex shoulder mount to be used as counter weight, the Tekkeon cord is a bit on the short side.

Ah, from your explanation I thought there was some fault with the manhattanlcd in the power connector. My mistake. What kind of side plug are you referring to? Or more importantly would this provide a simple fix for a Tekkeon powered lcd?
Any pics yet?
Thanks
Matt

September 18th, 2008, 04:15 AM	#18
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	I received the Manhattanlcd HD monitor today. It is lightweight at 2.38 lbs, a little heavier than listed on the web site. It looks great, and focusing is immensely easier. I was using a SonyFX820 portable DVD player with 8" 800x480. This HD monitor is so much better looking. In fact, the Sony EX1 overlays show major jaggies. While the SonyFX820 was better than the EX1's fantastic 3" LCD, the Sony just couldn't compete with the EX1 Expanded Mode view. The HD monitor easilyt beats both. I just wish that either the EX1 output the Expanded view to the HD monitor, or that the HD monitor had a zoom function. There is a Zoom button on the remote control, but it seems to create a screen tiled with row and columns of the input scaled down. What?!? Why? The HD monitor seems sturdy enough, and I prefer it lighter weight ABS plastic casing to metal. I wonder if the RF input receiver could be removed to save space and reduce depth or save weight. I bought some swivel mounts: Tote Vision HS-1 Hot Shoe Mount for Tote Vision LCD Monitors and Delvcam DELV-SM Swivel Mount Adapter for Delvcam 5.6-Inch LCD Monitors. The Tote Vision isn't up to the job. The Delvcam is sturdy, but weighs one pound. I tried mounting this LCD to my Vortex Media VSB-1 shoulder mount, but had a hard time getting the right hardware and placement. I also tried the Sony EX1 hotshoe mount with the Devlcam, but the total weight of3.5 lbs is unwieldy for shoulder mount. It's fine for tripod use. There is defintely an issue with larger monitors in handheld operation. 8" diagonal seems to be the top of what is wieldy. Unless another technology such as OLED becomes viable, it will be hard to avoid a larger monitor whipping around and blocking your view. There are some on-monitor buttons, but they don't seem to work well, perhaps due to operational lag. Switching the input is clumsy with the front panel buttons, although easy with the included remote control. Also, I compared SD and HS output on the Sony EX1 component output. It was hard to tell the difference, and I had to hunt for edges (used lace-like material on baby crib) to see the difference. I'll torture it some more, but it's hard to say if the downscaling by the monitor from 1080i to its native 1366x768 resolution caused the softness, or if the the monitors upscaling from 480i was equally soft or better. While it was not so find specific areas of my subjects (colorful baby toys), I can say that the HD monitor was more "alive" in 1080i than 480i. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the HD monitor. It's just that it's hard for me to see HD with such a pixel density. Any noise in the video signal destroys the HD detail on this monitor. It is very easy to see the Sony EX1 noise at +18 dB, although that camera sees better in the dark than I do with its 1/2" sensors. I'll also add that the viewing angle isn't bad, but it suffers from the typical drop in brightness or contrast. I don't have the unit in front of me, but I remember the red shift is ok from a few angles (side? NOTE: come back to this later) but not from the bottom. All of my experiments were with the Sony EX1 in 1080p30 recording mode driving either 1080i or 480i on the component output. It would be good to know if HDMI or SDI would provide a better monitoring solution. I would have preferred that Sony take a jump with HDMI. We would then also have access to more computer LCD panels. I'm sitting in front of two Apple 1920x1200 monitors ... Last edited by Gints Klimanis; September 18th, 2008 at 12:42 PM.

September 23rd, 2008, 02:53 PM	#26
Shawn Kessler Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Ofallon missouri Posts: 123	HD moitors Wow just what i'm looking for guy's, here the question I have is there a tap wire so I can plug in to my anton bauer brick? and is the 1to1 ratio in all modes. shawn

September 16th, 2008, 09:52 PM	#17
Michael Chenoweth Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Sandy, Utah Posts: 128	Let us know how the Manhattan LCD is - I know Small HD is using an anodized aluminum casing while Manhattan is using ABS - I'd be interested in how durable the Manhattan LCD is. Both should be really similar in panel quality and resolution. I bought a Small HD prototype not knowing it was just a bare aluminum chassis. I was hoping for black and am sending it back for credit towards the new model. Could be up to 2 months though so I'm curious about the Manhattan product. Built of the SmallHD though is really nice and the LCD panel rocks. Just in too primitive state at this point for me - price is sure right though. mike

September 18th, 2008, 07:17 AM	#19
Michael Chenoweth Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Sandy, Utah Posts: 128	Thanks for the update, Gints. Glad to hear you speak so highly of the LCD. One of my concerns is just that. How do these LCDs handle scaling? Seeing the Nebtek 7" HD LCD at NAB this year blew me out of the water. I was so used to Marshall's crappy image IMO that the scaling in Nebtek's to the 800x480 panel was pretty dang impressive. In fact, better than I had seen to date on a panel with that resolution. Enter the 1080x769 WXGA LCD's where we think we really have better resolution, but is the scaling as good? Would be nice to do a comparison with all the LCD's $1500 and down and really put them to the test. I agree on the handheld weight. The Ikan 8000HD was really nice for handheld although I wasn't as confident in the build of their plastic housing as your appear to be with the Manhattan LCD. Weight was awesome and I was pretty impressed with Ikan's price point for that LCD. The plastic housings obviously allow a larger LCD if needed on the rig without becoming too much a weight problem though. great feedback - thanks!

September 20th, 2008, 05:10 AM	#21
Andrew Dean Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Motukarara, New Zealand Posts: 475	Gints, Thanks a ton for taking the plunge and offering your review of the manhattanlcd monitor. Have you had a chance to take it outside yet? I'm curious just how awful it is in daylight/sunlight. Is the image viewable at all? thanks!- -a

September 22nd, 2008, 04:30 PM	#22
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Andrew, I'll have more time with the unit at the end of this week. Until Wednesday, I'm involved in a shoot, although I'm in front of the camera for this one.

September 23rd, 2008, 09:51 AM	#23
Matt Mullins Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cardiff, United Kingdom Posts: 54	Hi Gints, Thanks for the review. On the strength of yours and others comments I bit the bullet and ordered mine. I keep checking this thread for more monitor-crack so any other updates would be appreciated as mine is yet to arrive. Could you post some pics of the lcd with your setup? Be good to see how you intend to mount it and also hear any other insights you have using it in a shooting scenario. All the best, Thanks Matt

September 23rd, 2008, 02:14 PM	#24
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	There is some trouble with the Tekkeon battery plug adapters fitting in the manhattanlcd. It's not loose, but the connection is intermittent enough to prevent the power. I held the plug to one side, and it does work. manhattanlcd supplies a battery connector plug with the fitting plug and two wires with stripped ends. This must be resolved before trying to use this in a session, but the fallback is the included AC power adapter.

September 23rd, 2008, 02:46 PM	#25
Matt Mullins Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cardiff, United Kingdom Posts: 54	Not too encouraging. Have you contacted them for a solution?

September 23rd, 2008, 05:31 PM	#27
Andrew Dean Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Motukarara, New Zealand Posts: 475	Heya Shawn, The manhattanlcd has a 12v power input, and comes with a bare wire with the 12v connector on the end. I'm not sure what voltage the AB battery provides, but if you have a mount for it and it puts out from 8 to 12.5v, in theory you could wire it up w/ the provided cable. (anything under 8v or over 12.5v is not recommended) As to the 1:1, I'm no longer positive either monitor shows a true 1:1. If they do, it would ONLY be at 720p, but i'm afraid it may zoom up the image to fill the 768 screen. Its 1:1 in that there is actually a pixel for every pixel in the signal, so its not scaling down, but I'm not sure it will do the cropping to show a true 1:1 720p signal within the 1366x768 frame. Thats still heaps better than putting 720p onto 800x480 like most pro monitors, but still. The 1080 mode is definitely not 1:1, since the monitor is lower rez than 1080, and I haven't read anything indicating there is a "zoom to 1:1" mode. In fact, the zoom button supposedly does weird, not-useful things. I dont have either monitor, so everything i'm spouting is based on reading specs, forum postings around the web and emails w/ the makers. So, please salt what i'm saying accordingly. Now i'm all torn... buy the manhattanlcd now, or wait for the smallhd 8.4". hmmm. I emailed manhattanlcd asking about transflective screens. He indicated that the monitor has brightness enhancement films installed, but which ones i'm not sure. Its definitely not transflective, and is probably invisible in direct sunlight. The question remains whether its invisible in indirect high ambient light. The sony 9" crt we've been using is completely and totally useless outdoors here in nz. Gotta drape a bunch of towels over it and have the director huddle under them squinting... so i'm quite keen for a really bright (500+ nits) solution.