Intensity cards, HDTV's and more questions at DVinfo.net

Daniel Alexander · August 31st, 2008, 09:17 AM

Hi, i would really like to know some opinions on my proposed workflow.
I intend to buy a blackmagic intensity pro card so that i can color grade in Apple Color and output the results to a consumer HDTV. My problem is that i notice on the blackmagic website that it doesnt state whether or not this particular card will be able to output full 1920x1080p resolution (will be editing sony ex1 footage) but im inclined to believe the specification for the card was written before consumer cameras were able to output 1080 in a progressive format, and so i ask if any of you are successfully grading 1080p in Apple Color with an output via the blackmagic intensity pro card.

Also another issue I have. At this point in time I am just color grading short films that are destined for DVD, internet and festival submissions (HDCAM format) but i take my work very seriously but still limited by finance so I am looking for the best compromise in my situation. As i stated before i can only really afford the intensity pro (would love an mxo but its £450 over budget, and i opted for the pro version of the card as i believe i can monitor on my hdtv via hdmi and via a regular sd tv at the same time, but the BIG BIG BIG issue for me is that the hdtv i will be using is only capable of displaying upto 720p (so it says in the manual), I'm thinking that maybe there will be some downscaling going on somewhere in order for my tv to play back what Color is outputting, or am I wrong and will the TV not recognize the 1080p HDMI signal?

Also would i be better just grading via a standard sd tv or am i going to get closer results via the hdtv option? Ever since i started adding finer things to my videos such as film grain and careful contrast effects i've started to notice i need to see a full output of what's going on as these types of effects can be very decieving when displayed in a small canvas window and although im willing to see slight variances in color/saturation on different displays i really can't settle for huge variences in contrast and grain.

Oh and i know im asking alot here so forgive me, but just out of curiosity, is viewing my video back from the FCP timeline going to display more information via an intensity card as opposed to viewing it over the firewire-to deck-to monitor route? I hear the reason apple doesnt do viewing via firewire is because it compresses the signal too much so im wondering if firewire monitoring is inferior to hdmi monitoring.

Any general advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you

Mark Keck · August 31st, 2008, 07:44 PM

Daniel, at this time the Intensity cards will only support 1080i and 720p not 1080p. I for one would wish that they would fix that, as I think it should only be a firmware upgrade to do so if the FPGA thy use will support that much processing. However the details are a bit more complex.

Mark

Daniel Alexander · September 1st, 2008, 12:11 AM

Thanks mark, thats a real shame the card can't output 1080p, again another financial spanner in the works :P Ok off i go in search of another budget method to view my footage, thanks again :)

Dan Keaton · September 1st, 2008, 06:44 AM

Dear Daniel,

Which 1080p do you want to record?

Is it 1080p24?

If so, this would probably come over the HD-SDI as 1080p24 in a 1080i60 bitstream with certain flags set to indicate that the footage should be handled as 1080p24.

Mark Keck · September 1st, 2008, 09:47 AM

Daniel, I'm not a fan of people questioning what I'm trying to do, so please don't take this the wrong way... do you really "need" 1080p just for monitoring??? Using a 1080i monitor might have a few advantages in that if what you're trying to produce will ever get output interlaced, monitoring at 1080i might show up problems you would not otherwise see if output progressive. I don't believe there are any issues working in progressive and monitoring the output via Intensity interlaced.

Daniel Alexander · September 1st, 2008, 12:53 PM

Hi Dan, i'm trying to output 1080p 25 but thanks for the suggestion :). Mark, i think your right and to be honest seeing as I'm on such a budget i can't really be expecting exactly what i want anyway plus your theory on showing up things in interlaced that may go undetected in progressive really does make a lot of sense. Now that you have me thinking on a whole new level could you tell me if this makes sense...working on a 1080p timeline and outputting via an intensity card to a 720p hdtv. Would this work or would the card recognize the conflicting resolutions and not make it to the TV? My guess is that monitoring on a 720p hdtv as opposed to a 1080p hdtv won't make much difference seeing that my main area of concern is contrast.

Jack Zhang · September 1st, 2008, 03:54 PM

Today's best PCI-Express x16 video cards have 2 DVI-D outputs. Add a DVI to HDMI cable and you have 1080p.

Mark Keck · September 1st, 2008, 04:22 PM

Jack, I'm not sure that will work... what you want is a time line monitor, what you get with the setup you described is an extended desktop. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Daniel, since I'm guessing you don't want to get the Intensity card just to find this out, perhaps someone who's already done this will chime in. But the way I read the BM website, this should be possible.

Mark

Daniel Alexander · September 1st, 2008, 04:41 PM

thanks guys, yes i would like to hear if this is possible from a user of the card. I find when i email Blackmagic directly i get a politician's answer to my question and leaving me more confused than i was initially, so im hoping i can hear from first hand experience :)

Michael Wisniewski · September 1st, 2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

[JACK ZHANG]... Today's best PCI-Express x16 video cards have 2 DVI-D outputs. Add a DVI to HDMI cable and you have 1080p ...
[MARK KECK]... Jack, I'm not sure that will work... what you want is a time line monitor, what you get with the setup you described is an extended desktop. Please correct me if I'm wrong ...

I'm not sure how accurate it is, but you can use an HDMI/LCD HDTV display to preview from the timeline in Sony Vegas and Final Cut Pro. In Sony Vegas, set the preview device to the "Windows Secondary Display". In Final Cut Pro, enable the "Digital Cinema Desktop Preview" for the Second Monitor.

Shaun Roemich · September 1st, 2008, 09:03 PM

Yes, you can do the DVI to HDMI thing but I BELIEVE that the advantage of using a video output device like the Intensity is that the I/O device addresses the different colour space and gamma issues that are inherent in computer monitoring and therefore gives you an accurate VIDEO image.

Jack Zhang · September 1st, 2008, 10:44 PM

There's no way to get a "Video" quality assessment image in 1080p with the Intensity, you have to upgrade to at least a 2K compatible card and use HD-SDI to use it for those purposes. If you only need 1080i, it's no problem if you're editing native 1080i footage.

Daniel Alexander · September 2nd, 2008, 04:29 AM

Yeh monitoring from he timeline sounds abit risky when it comes to color space etc. Ok so now im sure the intensity card won't output a 1080p picture but the question now is, will it output a 1080p timeline and display it on a 720p HDTV, and if so are there any potential problems i.e. the downscaleing not being handled properly or weird color space issue? Or would i have to work on a 720p timeline in the first place and drop my 1080p footage there so the card recognizes the attempted output as 720?

Shaun Roemich · September 2nd, 2008, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

There's no way to get a "Video" quality assessment image in 1080p with the Intensity, you have to upgrade to at least a 2K compatible card and use HD-SDI to use it for those purposes. If you only need 1080i, it's no problem if you're editing native 1080i footage.

Ok, I'm good at this game and I don't have a hot clue what that statement means.

A "video" quality image is one that uses YUV colour space with video gamma. Computer outputs use RGB colour space with either 1.8 or 2.2 gamma, depending on the choice of Mac or PC, without further user intervention. That's why we use I/O devices: to output our video data into the appropriate colour space.

A 2K card is overkill for 1080P. HD-SDI? HDMI supports 1080P so I don't understand why you would "need" a 2k card to display 1080P.

Daniel Alexander · September 2nd, 2008, 10:32 AM

OK so i gave blackmagic design sales rep's a call twice today with this question, and the reason i called twice is because i like to present the same question to different people to make sure i don't get different answers, and guess what i got...different answers.

The first rep told me that the intensity card would output to my 720p TV from my 1080p timeline fine with no drawbacks or anything else to consider. The second rep told me that i would have to use one of their codecs which he admitted are quite 'restrictive' and that 'should' allow me to see my timeline on a 720p tv. So again i am still in the dark to the truth, are there any intensity card/sony ex1 owners out there?

Giving this matter some more thought i've had another idea, does this make sense:
Shoot in 1080p
Edit that footage on a 720p timeline
Output the timeline via HDMI on the intensity card to a 720p HDTV
Edit and color correct this way until all edits are complete
Then finanally chage the timeline settings back to 1080p
output to final master (HDCAM SR)

Am i trying to be too clever or would this work? Would i be losing quality by going from 1080 to 720 back to 1080 again? as im not quite sure what that fcp timeline is really doing when you change sequence settings

August 31st, 2008, 09:17 AM	#1
Daniel Alexander Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: West Midlands, UK Posts: 320	Intensity cards, HDTV's and more questions Hi, i would really like to know some opinions on my proposed workflow. I intend to buy a blackmagic intensity pro card so that i can color grade in Apple Color and output the results to a consumer HDTV. My problem is that i notice on the blackmagic website that it doesnt state whether or not this particular card will be able to output full 1920x1080p resolution (will be editing sony ex1 footage) but im inclined to believe the specification for the card was written before consumer cameras were able to output 1080 in a progressive format, and so i ask if any of you are successfully grading 1080p in Apple Color with an output via the blackmagic intensity pro card. Also another issue I have. At this point in time I am just color grading short films that are destined for DVD, internet and festival submissions (HDCAM format) but i take my work very seriously but still limited by finance so I am looking for the best compromise in my situation. As i stated before i can only really afford the intensity pro (would love an mxo but its £450 over budget, and i opted for the pro version of the card as i believe i can monitor on my hdtv via hdmi and via a regular sd tv at the same time, but the BIG BIG BIG issue for me is that the hdtv i will be using is only capable of displaying upto 720p (so it says in the manual), I'm thinking that maybe there will be some downscaling going on somewhere in order for my tv to play back what Color is outputting, or am I wrong and will the TV not recognize the 1080p HDMI signal? Also would i be better just grading via a standard sd tv or am i going to get closer results via the hdtv option? Ever since i started adding finer things to my videos such as film grain and careful contrast effects i've started to notice i need to see a full output of what's going on as these types of effects can be very decieving when displayed in a small canvas window and although im willing to see slight variances in color/saturation on different displays i really can't settle for huge variences in contrast and grain. Oh and i know im asking alot here so forgive me, but just out of curiosity, is viewing my video back from the FCP timeline going to display more information via an intensity card as opposed to viewing it over the firewire-to deck-to monitor route? I hear the reason apple doesnt do viewing via firewire is because it compresses the signal too much so im wondering if firewire monitoring is inferior to hdmi monitoring. Any general advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you

September 1st, 2008, 06:44 AM	#4
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Daniel, Which 1080p do you want to record? Is it 1080p24? If so, this would probably come over the HD-SDI as 1080p24 in a 1080i60 bitstream with certain flags set to indicate that the footage should be handled as 1080p24. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

September 1st, 2008, 09:03 PM	#11
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Yes, you can do the DVI to HDMI thing but I BELIEVE that the advantage of using a video output device like the Intensity is that the I/O device addresses the different colour space and gamma issues that are inherent in computer monitoring and therefore gives you an accurate VIDEO image. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

August 31st, 2008, 07:44 PM	#2
Mark Keck Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Penang, Malaysia Posts: 123	Daniel, at this time the Intensity cards will only support 1080i and 720p not 1080p. I for one would wish that they would fix that, as I think it should only be a firmware upgrade to do so if the FPGA thy use will support that much processing. However the details are a bit more complex. Mark

September 1st, 2008, 12:11 AM	#3
Daniel Alexander Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: West Midlands, UK Posts: 320	Thanks mark, thats a real shame the card can't output 1080p, again another financial spanner in the works :P Ok off i go in search of another budget method to view my footage, thanks again :)

September 1st, 2008, 09:47 AM	#5
Mark Keck Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Penang, Malaysia Posts: 123	Daniel, I'm not a fan of people questioning what I'm trying to do, so please don't take this the wrong way... do you really "need" 1080p just for monitoring??? Using a 1080i monitor might have a few advantages in that if what you're trying to produce will ever get output interlaced, monitoring at 1080i might show up problems you would not otherwise see if output progressive. I don't believe there are any issues working in progressive and monitoring the output via Intensity interlaced.

September 1st, 2008, 12:53 PM	#6
Daniel Alexander Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: West Midlands, UK Posts: 320	Hi Dan, i'm trying to output 1080p 25 but thanks for the suggestion :). Mark, i think your right and to be honest seeing as I'm on such a budget i can't really be expecting exactly what i want anyway plus your theory on showing up things in interlaced that may go undetected in progressive really does make a lot of sense. Now that you have me thinking on a whole new level could you tell me if this makes sense...working on a 1080p timeline and outputting via an intensity card to a 720p hdtv. Would this work or would the card recognize the conflicting resolutions and not make it to the TV? My guess is that monitoring on a 720p hdtv as opposed to a 1080p hdtv won't make much difference seeing that my main area of concern is contrast.

September 1st, 2008, 03:54 PM	#7
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Today's best PCI-Express x16 video cards have 2 DVI-D outputs. Add a DVI to HDMI cable and you have 1080p.

September 1st, 2008, 04:22 PM	#8
Mark Keck Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Penang, Malaysia Posts: 123	Jack, I'm not sure that will work... what you want is a time line monitor, what you get with the setup you described is an extended desktop. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Daniel, since I'm guessing you don't want to get the Intensity card just to find this out, perhaps someone who's already done this will chime in. But the way I read the BM website, this should be possible. Mark

September 1st, 2008, 04:41 PM	#9
Daniel Alexander Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: West Midlands, UK Posts: 320	thanks guys, yes i would like to hear if this is possible from a user of the card. I find when i email Blackmagic directly i get a politician's answer to my question and leaving me more confused than i was initially, so im hoping i can hear from first hand experience :)

September 1st, 2008, 10:44 PM	#12
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	There's no way to get a "Video" quality assessment image in 1080p with the Intensity, you have to upgrade to at least a 2K compatible card and use HD-SDI to use it for those purposes. If you only need 1080i, it's no problem if you're editing native 1080i footage.

September 2nd, 2008, 04:29 AM	#13
Daniel Alexander Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: West Midlands, UK Posts: 320	Yeh monitoring from he timeline sounds abit risky when it comes to color space etc. Ok so now im sure the intensity card won't output a 1080p picture but the question now is, will it output a 1080p timeline and display it on a 720p HDTV, and if so are there any potential problems i.e. the downscaleing not being handled properly or weird color space issue? Or would i have to work on a 720p timeline in the first place and drop my 1080p footage there so the card recognizes the attempted output as 720?

September 2nd, 2008, 10:32 AM	#15
Daniel Alexander Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: West Midlands, UK Posts: 320	OK so i gave blackmagic design sales rep's a call twice today with this question, and the reason i called twice is because i like to present the same question to different people to make sure i don't get different answers, and guess what i got...different answers. The first rep told me that the intensity card would output to my 720p TV from my 1080p timeline fine with no drawbacks or anything else to consider. The second rep told me that i would have to use one of their codecs which he admitted are quite 'restrictive' and that 'should' allow me to see my timeline on a 720p tv. So again i am still in the dark to the truth, are there any intensity card/sony ex1 owners out there? Giving this matter some more thought i've had another idea, does this make sense: Shoot in 1080p Edit that footage on a 720p timeline Output the timeline via HDMI on the intensity card to a 720p HDTV Edit and color correct this way until all edits are complete Then finanally chage the timeline settings back to 1080p output to final master (HDCAM SR) Am i trying to be too clever or would this work? Would i be losing quality by going from 1080 to 720 back to 1080 again? as im not quite sure what that fcp timeline is really doing when you change sequence settings