LCD for color correction --- when will it be good enough???

[Bill Ravens]

read thru this link. it has valuable info re: LCD displays:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPVA#PVA

[Glenn Chan]

To get as accurate as possible you really need to tweak hue and saturation as well just like a broadcast monitor.

LCDs shouldn't need this if connected digitally.

You would need this if monitoring via composite analog.

[Glenn Chan]

In practice, probably just get something like eCinemasys' FX24 monitor (ballpark of $4k). 1920x1080, viewing angle looks good. I didn't carefully look at the colors (e.g. to see if they are close to what a CRT would show), but it doesn't strike me as being particularly off like some other LCDs (and aged CRTs). Blacks still have that glow-in-the-dark look like (nearly?) all LCDs. I'd hazard to guess that you could use that monitor to pass broadcast QC (other things are more important).

I don't know the cheaper solutions too well so I won't comment on things like computer LCDs versus Decklink, Matrox MXO, etc.

[Giroud Francois]

first you have to set your target. If your target is to display your work on the average consumer LCD flat screen, a good 600$ computer LCD panel, properly calibrated should fit the need.
After all why should you spend 4000$ on a monitor to display something nobody will ?
If your target is the film reel on big screens that is another story.
the only thing that differentiate an expensive professional LCD screen from a cheaper consumer is the electronic inside. The LCD panel by itself is probably from the same origin (Samsung, LG).
since the settings you can change into a cheap lcd are usually limited to contrast and luminosity, you need to use the overlay settings into the PC offering a lot more features. That is why using a computer is generally a good thing for such purpose.

[Glenn Chan]

Giroud... I respectfully disagree.

A broadcast monitor will have things like a proper deinterlacer (which computer monitors won't do), 3d LUT calibration or better (I've not seen a $600 computer LCD that does this for video), etc. etc.
A computer LCD is also prone to errors from color space conversions, video overlays, etc.
A broadcast monitor (the higher end ones anyways) can take SDI in and therefore not be affected by video overlays and things like that.

[Mark Keck]

Thanks all for the good suggestions. I'm still undecided as to what to do, I like the look of the Dell 2408 which supports HDMI input and controls that look more like a TV than PC monitor... it definitely fits my meager budget. I also like the Apply Cinema with the matrox box, but it's still nagging at me that you should be able to do this without the matrox mxo if the dispay has the right controls as all it's really doing is adding the controls. And at about $1800 for both, its more than I'm wanting to spend at the moment.

I've read all I can on the various LCD panel types and it looks like a toss up for IPS and S-PVA, and both types can be found in monitors from $500-$2k. I'd really like to know which panel is used in the LCD studio monitors from JVC, Sony, NEC or Cine-tal.

[Brian Tori]

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

LCDs shouldn't need this if connected digitally.

You would need this if monitoring via composite analog.

Theoretically I suppose this would be correct. I assume this is why computer monitors only offer brightness and contrast controls. However, in practice the addition of hue and saturation controls would allow the panel to become alot more accurate when calibrating to a colorbar pattern. I think it is the subtle differences in the way each LCD displays color that needs to addressed. My point is that having more control in the panel would allow for this. That is why I think LCD TV's have an advantage over LCD computer monitors. They allow for all aspects of color to be changed no matter what input.

[Glenn Chan]

The better monitors are calibrated with look up tables... they offer more control than simple hue/saturation controls. Those controls can't correct for the primaries being off, the transfer function of the monitor being off, etc.

2- In practice, I've not seen a computer LCD (or LCD TV) with color reproduction close to that of a Sony BVM broadcast monitor. If you know of one... then that would be very interesting. The consumer manufacturers could make a display like that... but they don't.

[Giroud Francois]

again , i agree with all of us. A 4000$ professional monitor offers better settings/feature than a 600$ computer monitor.
But , again what is the purpose to spend all that money to get the perfect picture if you know that the movie will be anyway played on low cost lcd TV that are most of the time incorrectly set up.
Take any cheap S-PVA LCD screen, carefully calibrate as much as you can and you will get 80% of what a 4000$ screen is able to give.
And what you get will be anyway 2x better than any consumer's screen you can find on the market.
currently there are few technology for LCD. S-IPS (the best for color, but too slow for good video), S-PVA (a bit faster, and almost as good as S-IPS for color), MVA and TN (the most common on the cheap side, but unable to display all colors, so this not the one you are looking for).
today, most of 24" inch monitor are offering components, HDMI inputs, few settings for calibration. And if you use them on a PC, the software of the graphic card probably gives you a lot of features.
The problem with DELL and others, is sometimes they start to lauch a screen with a very good panel (from LG or Samsung) and fews month after, they switch to less good panels (those with small defect you can't usually see, like backlight uniformity ) or with cheaper manufacturer. That's probably the price for not going "professional grade", quality can greatly vary.
But how many of us are editing video on a computer, and how many of us have only made the slightest effort to calibrate it once ,instead just unpack and switching it on ?
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

[Glenn Chan]

I've simply not seen the colors on a consumer computer monitor to be close to that of a broadcast grade CRT... so I think that is definitely a big difference between a consumer computer monitor and a broadcast monitor.

[John Mitchell]

FWIW - I have a broadcast CRT for SD and use a reasonably good big screen LCDTV for HD (not that I do that much HD). When I do HD, I check the downconverted SD from my Avid on the broadcast monitor and I check everything on a cheap TEAC TV set (for comparison it's handy to see what it might look like on my audience's set.) The colours (particularly the blacks) on the TEAC are more accurate than the LCD, if that gives you a clue (the LCD is now three years old so it's not as good as my Sony full HD set that I have at home, but it's close). Contrast ratio and blacks are the major stumbling blocks on LCD's and they are getting better as technologies improve.

I think Glen has a good point - for critical CC work you can't beat a broadcast CRT. You simply have to decide how critical colour correction is for your workflow - a lot of my work ends up on corporate DVD or lo band satellite broadcast. For that purpose near enough is definitely good enough. However if I was going to a widespread film release, I'd use a telecine based CC and pay the dollars - but they'd have their own CRT monitoring.

[Gints Klimanis]

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

I've simply not seen the colors on a consumer computer monitor to be close to that of a broadcast grade CRT... so I think that is definitely a big difference between a consumer computer monitor and a broadcast monitor.

There are some mid-grade choices such as the NEC Spectraview series. On the photography site smartshooter.com, there is a monitor shootout that places a few monitors in the acceptible category. I wonder how they do for video as they are chosen for color but not reponse times. I have the NEC 2190UXi for digital photography work. It's an S-IPS panels which is supposedly too slow for video, but I'm not held up for the amateur-grade video work I do.

[Peter Moretti]

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

The better monitors are calibrated with look up tables... they offer more control than simple hue/saturation controls. Those controls can't correct for the primaries being off, the transfer function of the monitor being off, etc.

2- In practice, I've not seen a computer LCD (or LCD TV) with color reproduction close to that of a Sony BVM broadcast monitor. If you know of one... then that would be very interesting. The consumer manufacturers could make a display like that... but they don't.

Glenn, can you explain a little more about what a broadcast monitor does as it realtes to making a DI for a filmout? I realize that there are interlacing and IRE 709 color level issues related to broadcast. Should the same broadcast monitor for doing CCing to a make a DI for a filmout? I plan on getting the software only version of Avid's DS and would like to use it to do as much finishing myself as I can.

Thanks much for your insights.

[Brian Tori]

I use the JVC TM-H150 CRT for SD correction. However, I highly considered purchasing a Sony LMD model before going with the JVC, which ultimately won on price. I would not hesitate to use the Sony however for the same purposes. The BVM line is obviously the reference standard but probably out of the budget for most. The PVM line seems like a great alternative.

SD Model:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...al_Series.html

HD Model:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...eries_20_.html

[Mark Keck]

After a couple of more days researching and reading, I’ve finally got a concept to run by everyone.

The LaCie 324 looks to be a good compromise between price and performance… at least in my price range. It has a HDMI input that I’ll drive via an Intensity card, the ability to separately adjust hue for primaries and secondaries, true 1920x1080 framing (letterboxed, no scaling), the ability to handle 1080p (future proof, I’d only be using 1080i for now) and they advertise 92% NTSC color gamut. What it doesn’t have is separate saturation control for primaries and secondaries, and the ability to view what overscan vs underscan would look like. LaCie has a good rep for displays that faithfully reproduce color with even backlighting and no banding, but has a bad rep for service (roll the dice). I had originally considered the latest Dell, but decided not to go there due to lack of controls for CC, and issues with banding. The 324 is fairly new and I have only been able to find one review of it so far and that was more for photo than video.

I can generate gray scale and color test patterns in FCP for calibration and use HCFR with an i1 probe like any other monitor as the Intensity won’t support an ICC profile and I’d rather have it be wysiwyg anyway, similar to a true broadcast monitor.

I have no illusions that this will perform anywhere near what a good broadcast monitor would, but it should get me as close as I can for the money.

Comments please.