Monitor/TV with Firewire input? at DVinfo.net

Gints Klimanis · July 8th, 2003, 05:32 PM

Hi,

I'm interested in the highest quality viewing experience driven by my camcorder. Basically, I watch the raw footage once after taping.

I'm interested in a TV that will take a Firewire input (from my camcorder output) and convert it to a progressive scan display. Some Mitsubishi rear projection TVs have this feature, but I'm not interested in their models. I'm guessing that some DVD recorders are able to take Firewire input and convert to component output as a thru function.

On another note, has anyone heard of a standalone Firewire -> DVI or a Firewire -> component output converter?

Jeff Donald · July 8th, 2003, 08:21 PM

Yes, there are several on the market. Laird makes several models that I’ve used and the quality is excellent.

Gints Klimanis · July 9th, 2003, 01:58 PM

I'd spring for something under $250. Most of these products are in the $1000-2000 range.

Glen Elliott · July 9th, 2003, 02:35 PM

Do regular NTSC field monitors have this option. I'd hate to buy a $2,000 NTSC editing monitor only to have to run the line thru my camera and out to the display as composit and/or S-video. UGH

Robert Knecht Schmidt · July 9th, 2003, 04:04 PM

With a MiniDV camera you won't get appreciable signal degradation when piping your analog output to your monitor through an S-Video cable--provided you use good S-Video cable and keep your cable runs to reasonable lengths (under 50 feet). Most NTSC field monitors do not have firewire input. Those that do, necessarily also have a decoder/DA chip, which is an expensive component that will drive up the cost of the monitor. Your real question should be, do you really have a good reason for doing the digital-to-analog conversion inside of your monitor rather than inside of your camera? Or are you just enamored with the romaniticized ideal of lossless transmission between your camera and your monitor?

Even on big Hollywood productions, the HD monitor is typically fed by analog cables. Good shielded component analog cables.

Andre De Clercq · July 10th, 2003, 02:17 PM

Datavideo ( see http://www.datavideo-tek.com/content/product_info/dvformatconverters/dac2/dac2_page.htm) has a good and cheap convertor for firewire>components and more.
Using S-video means the original DV signal is, after decompression also being encoded (NTSC or PAL) in de player and decoded in the monitor. These two extra steps are acceptable in NTSC, but in PAL the chroma components are degraded by the encoding/decoding steps resulting in at least vertical chroma bandwidth halving and vertical downshift by one line of the chroma components. B.t.w. I still don't understand (commercially) why the better DVD players and systems run on components and expensive DV players (DHR1000...) still stick on Y/C unless one pays for a pro vcr...

Boyd Ostroff · July 10th, 2003, 06:43 PM

Andre, I'm with you! Almost every TV and DVD player in the stores these days (even the cheap ones) have component video. That looks like a really interesting converter box, do you know where they can be purchased in the US and what they cost? Last time I looked, Promax sold some similar devices but they're pretty expensive.

Gints Klimanis · July 10th, 2003, 07:01 PM

>Or are you just enamored with the romaniticized ideal of >lossless transmission between your camera and your monitor?

I just want my camcorder output to look as good during the preview sessions as the progressive scan version of the DVD I make with the same footage.

Gints Klimanis · July 10th, 2003, 07:06 PM

The web page shows a distributor list:

http://www.datavideo-tek.com/navigation_frames/where_to_purchase/entire_frameset.htm

Gints Klimanis · July 10th, 2003, 07:19 PM

From a Google search:

DAC-100 for $199 (DV <-> composite)
http://www.synchrotech.com/product-1394/analog-dv-converter_03.html#part-numbers

DAC-2 $699 (DV <-> component)
http://www.dvwarehouse.com/product_info.php/cPath/170_100/products_id/483

Who knows what the analog conversion looks like !?!? That's
why I'm more interested in a Firewire -> DVI converter. After seeing loads of ghosting on a Sony WEGA RPTV with Sony DVD player and seeing a $500 Denon with/Faroujda processing blur titles (blur on bottom and top but not center) on Sony WEGA tube TV, I find I really can't trust DVD player quality by name.

For the price of a DAC-2, one can probably land a DVD recorder
with firewire inputes, component outputs and thru function to do the conversion.

Andre De Clercq · July 11th, 2003, 03:00 AM

Gints, don't forget that DVD recorders first convert the DV signal into MPEG2 and then output (in analog components) the decompressed MPEG2 signal(=degradation)

Andre De Clercq · July 11th, 2003, 08:54 AM

Gints do you mean DVI or SDI? DVI is normally computer interconnection to flat pannel stuff.

Glen Elliott · July 11th, 2003, 09:06 AM

Hmm, maybe I am romaniticized with the idea of lossless transmission between my camera and monitor, more accuratly between my NLE and Monitor. So what your saying is it doesn't make a difference if it the signal runs via firewire to my camera then to my monitor via S-video. It just seems like so much is lost in the conversion to analog. But as you say it all get's changed to analog whether it be in-camera or in-monitor. But isn't there a better interface to do such a thing than standard S-video *Ack!*

Zac Stein · July 11th, 2003, 09:31 AM

It has to go analogue somewhere, crt technology is not digital, well not in the last steps. Just like audio technology, it had to go analogue before it hits the amp, just the way it works.

Zac

Andre De Clercq · July 11th, 2003, 09:39 AM

Ultimately the camera scene content is proportional (analog) and through the eye's retina it has to be interpreted as protortional again. Today a number of display technologies (plasma, DLP...) allow digital images to be displayed without the electrical signal ever being transformed into analog form...the eye(brains) does the job. Unfortunately digital throughout the chain doesn't mean there are no shortcommings anymore. Bandwidth stuff and grayscale(gamma) issues can be correct in these cases but all other effects still remain present (aliasing, blocking...)

July 8th, 2003, 05:32 PM	#1
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Monitor/TV with Firewire input? Hi, I'm interested in the highest quality viewing experience driven by my camcorder. Basically, I watch the raw footage once after taping. I'm interested in a TV that will take a Firewire input (from my camcorder output) and convert it to a progressive scan display. Some Mitsubishi rear projection TVs have this feature, but I'm not interested in their models. I'm guessing that some DVD recorders are able to take Firewire input and convert to component output as a thru function. On another note, has anyone heard of a standalone Firewire -> DVI or a Firewire -> component output converter?

July 8th, 2003, 08:21 PM	#2
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Yes, there are several on the market. Laird makes several models that I’ve used and the quality is excellent. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 9th, 2003, 04:04 PM	#5
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	With a MiniDV camera you won't get appreciable signal degradation when piping your analog output to your monitor through an S-Video cable--provided you use good S-Video cable and keep your cable runs to reasonable lengths (under 50 feet). Most NTSC field monitors do not have firewire input. Those that do, necessarily also have a decoder/DA chip, which is an expensive component that will drive up the cost of the monitor. Your real question should be, do you really have a good reason for doing the digital-to-analog conversion inside of your monitor rather than inside of your camera? Or are you just enamored with the romaniticized ideal of lossless transmission between your camera and your monitor? Even on big Hollywood productions, the HD monitor is typically fed by analog cables. Good shielded component analog cables. __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 9th, 2003, 01:58 PM	#3
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	I'd spring for something under $250. Most of these products are in the $1000-2000 range.

July 9th, 2003, 02:35 PM	#4
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Do regular NTSC field monitors have this option. I'd hate to buy a $2,000 NTSC editing monitor only to have to run the line thru my camera and out to the display as composit and/or S-video. UGH

July 10th, 2003, 02:17 PM	#6
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Datavideo ( see http://www.datavideo-tek.com/content/product_info/dvformatconverters/dac2/dac2_page.htm) has a good and cheap convertor for firewire>components and more. Using S-video means the original DV signal is, after decompression also being encoded (NTSC or PAL) in de player and decoded in the monitor. These two extra steps are acceptable in NTSC, but in PAL the chroma components are degraded by the encoding/decoding steps resulting in at least vertical chroma bandwidth halving and vertical downshift by one line of the chroma components. B.t.w. I still don't understand (commercially) why the better DVD players and systems run on components and expensive DV players (DHR1000...) still stick on Y/C unless one pays for a pro vcr...

July 10th, 2003, 06:43 PM	#7
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Andre, I'm with you! Almost every TV and DVD player in the stores these days (even the cheap ones) have component video. That looks like a really interesting converter box, do you know where they can be purchased in the US and what they cost? Last time I looked, Promax sold some similar devices but they're pretty expensive.

July 10th, 2003, 07:01 PM	#8
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	>Or are you just enamored with the romaniticized ideal of >lossless transmission between your camera and your monitor? I just want my camcorder output to look as good during the preview sessions as the progressive scan version of the DVD I make with the same footage.

July 10th, 2003, 07:06 PM	#9
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	The web page shows a distributor list: http://www.datavideo-tek.com/navigation_frames/where_to_purchase/entire_frameset.htm

July 10th, 2003, 07:19 PM	#10
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	From a Google search: DAC-100 for $199 (DV <-> composite) http://www.synchrotech.com/product-1394/analog-dv-converter_03.html#part-numbers DAC-2 $699 (DV <-> component) http://www.dvwarehouse.com/product_info.php/cPath/170_100/products_id/483 Who knows what the analog conversion looks like !?!? That's why I'm more interested in a Firewire -> DVI converter. After seeing loads of ghosting on a Sony WEGA RPTV with Sony DVD player and seeing a $500 Denon with/Faroujda processing blur titles (blur on bottom and top but not center) on Sony WEGA tube TV, I find I really can't trust DVD player quality by name. For the price of a DAC-2, one can probably land a DVD recorder with firewire inputes, component outputs and thru function to do the conversion.

July 11th, 2003, 03:00 AM	#11
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Gints, don't forget that DVD recorders first convert the DV signal into MPEG2 and then output (in analog components) the decompressed MPEG2 signal(=degradation)

July 11th, 2003, 08:54 AM	#12
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Gints do you mean DVI or SDI? DVI is normally computer interconnection to flat pannel stuff.

July 11th, 2003, 09:06 AM	#13
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Hmm, maybe I am romaniticized with the idea of lossless transmission between my camera and monitor, more accuratly between my NLE and Monitor. So what your saying is it doesn't make a difference if it the signal runs via firewire to my camera then to my monitor via S-video. It just seems like so much is lost in the conversion to analog. But as you say it all get's changed to analog whether it be in-camera or in-monitor. But isn't there a better interface to do such a thing than standard S-video Ack!

July 11th, 2003, 09:31 AM	#14
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	It has to go analogue somewhere, crt technology is not digital, well not in the last steps. Just like audio technology, it had to go analogue before it hits the amp, just the way it works. Zac

July 11th, 2003, 09:39 AM	#15
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Ultimately the camera scene content is proportional (analog) and through the eye's retina it has to be interpreted as protortional again. Today a number of display technologies (plasma, DLP...) allow digital images to be displayed without the electrical signal ever being transformed into analog form...the eye(brains) does the job. Unfortunately digital throughout the chain doesn't mean there are no shortcommings anymore. Bandwidth stuff and grayscale(gamma) issues can be correct in these cases but all other effects still remain present (aliasing, blocking...)