LCD monitor for color correcting and field work

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

Alexander,
I wouldn't use a consumer monitor in the field for color... they can give you an inaccurate sense of the color and lead you towards the wrong exposure and lighting decisions. One Sony consumer CRT I've used for example will make the image look way brighter than it actually is.

I am afraid you've entirely misunderstood me.

I agree with you to a great degree.

That may be why I started by saying that you should use both consumer and professional monitoring.

I then then continued to talk about the problems with consumer monitors.

Where I wasn't clear is that I do not advocate consumer monitors on set or in the field.

I've used them as a last resort- but they always cause about as many problems as they solve- doubly so if I have "producers" around who have no understanding of the image.

I do advoate having a consumer TV in the studio, but I wouldn't use it for primary monitoring, but rather as an adjunct "see what the end user gets" kind of monitor.

Its kind of the same thing at a broadcast facility where they get a consumer TV and tune their own broadcast in.

Professional monitors can lead you into making too precise an image- one that won't reproduce well for viewers in the home. You need to check that. There are many variations of this one simple pitfall.

For framing... figure out what sort of overscan the monitor is doing.

A hundred times no. That leads to "guesstimating" the edges of a frame which is not acceptable.

Consumer monitors are better than nothing- but they aren't very good at all.

When framing in the field most decent cameras will show the full frame, and I trust that. I use pro monitors otherwise.

2- Many high-end HD cameras have black & white viewfinders... even for those cameras, the on-board monitoring tends to be poor.
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Well, you better tell that to the camera manufacturers, because I was using a color viewfinder on a fairly old F900 recently. And a Varicam. I used Color viewfinders with everything Panasonic was showing at GV Expo (HPX500, HPX2000 and HPX3000.) Sony showed their F900R at GV Expo, with a color finder.

So off hand I'd say you were mistaken.

To be fair, in the early days of HD color viewfinders were an expensive option.

As to the quality... it depends on what you are talking about.

With HD You can't always accurately judge focus, even on a full raster HD monitor. I pretty much always tape the distance and use the lens marks.

Color and framing are pretty damn good on high end viewfinders. You can't use them for fine control, but you can trust them to be accurate within their limits.

Of course you have better test the viewfinder and learn its limits so the operator can make a judgement.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Jonas Wessman

Iam looking for a good lcd monitor for color correcting and field work. I been thinking about Jvc DTV20L1U 20. But iam not sure. Just so you now iam using jvc gyhd100 for shooting. I also wonder if its possible to plug the jvc DTV20L1U 20 directly to the graphic card and still have good color correcting ?

Is there any better monitors out there for the same monney or is this the best i can get.

Thanks

The monitor I am considering most seriously is the Sony LUMA series, LMD 2450WHD.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...l_lcd_monitors

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...ycatalog07.pdf

This is a full raster 1920x1200 monitor. It includes waveform and vectorscope functions, and a bevy of inputs, including an HD-SDI option board. Retail the monitor is $4100. (Both Abel and B&H have it at that price now.)

If you really don't need HD SDI you can save some coin and get the 2450W, which does not include the HD SDI option board. Should be about $800 less.

I do recommend a full raster monitor for HD shooting. At this stage I'd be looking to buy 1080p capable monitors

Monitors in this price range are 8 bit monitors with "16 Million colors"

10 bit monitors, like the Sony BVM L230, are quite a bit more expensive at this point. ($25000 USD) Of course if you are doing high end DI and grading then this is the right tool, though I wouldn't call it.

[Glenn Chan]

That leads to "guesstimating" the edges of a frame which is not acceptable.

What I was saying is that if you *had* to use a consumer monitor, you should learn what the overscan is so that you have a reasonable idea as to the framing. Then again, it probably isn't a good idea since other people on set (e.g. director, DP) may not be familiar with that monitor and make the wrong framing decisions.

Anyways I think we agree here.

2- Black and white viewfinders:
I am probably thinking more about the early days of HD, where there was HD cameras that shipped with black and white CRT viewfinders (since it gives you higher resolution compared to a color CRT, and small CRTs have lower resolution to begin with).

[Jonas Wessman]

I been thinking alot about what monitor to go for under the last days. And i whant to but the sony lmb 24 monitor, but i dosent have the money to buy it in sweden. So i will go for something for a little less money.Any advice ?

Tanks

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

What I was saying is that if you *had* to use a consumer monitor, you should learn what the overscan is so that you have a reasonable idea as to the framing. Then again, it probably isn't a good idea since other people on set (e.g. director, DP) may not be familiar with that monitor and make the wrong framing decisions.

Anyways I think we agree here.

Yeah, we do.

I'll give you another way for a beginner to use a consumer monitor. I had the opposite problem, I was very unsure where the "home" TV screen edge was, i.e. what was safe. The camera had no safe marking/graticule so I had to do something. I also had brightness/exposure problems and focus issues.

So, I got a little black and white CRT from Radio Shack. It was a terrible little thing. It had about the smallest viewable region I'd ever seen though. My thinking was that if framing was OK in the viewfinder and on that TV, it would work just about anywhere. Turns out I was right.

As far as focus, it had better resolution than my viewfinder... enough so focus was always spot on with it.

Finally exposure. Having two monitors I intentionally set them both wrong. I set the viewfinder up to show me the highlights- since I had zebras. Then I set the TV p so it showed me the shadow areas better, but still gave me as good a picture as it could.

So, as bad as that TV was, a little understanding of my problems in camera operation and intelligent use of the monitors I had helped me learn.

To address your other point: That sort of thing only works in a one man band production. If I had other people around I just left that monitor at home and made them trust me and what I was seeing through the finder.

I've learned that it is folly to have people who don't understand the image around and give them the opportunity to "advise" on the image.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Jonas Wessman

I been thinking alot about what monitor to go for under the last days. And i whant to but the sony lmb 24 monitor, but i dosent have the money to buy it in sweden. So i will go for something for a little less money.Any advice ?

Well, you could try a computer monitor.

A full raster image is so much more important than anything else for HD monitoring.

If your camera has HDMI output, get a computer monitor with HDMI or a converter cable. Test carefully, then you are off.

When testing check for differences in the frame edges between the display and your captured material. (Do these tests near your NLE.)

You could be monitoring with a $700 USD or lower investment.

It is important that you DO NOT use a consumer HDTV. They often cut off the edges of the image.

If you have SDI output, then invest in a converter box.

$445 USD gets you the Black Magic HD Link, which converts HD SDI into DVI-D and HDMI

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/

I think the AJA HDP converter offers you more if you have to monitor SD SDI. It also allows you to pass the SDI signal through, with two SDI outputs. It doesn't offer HDMI output though. I think its $695 USD- but check the prices.

http://www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HDP.html

With one of these and a good monitor you can be doing quality monitoring for under $1400 for SDI equipped cameras.

Lastly if you have analog component video output from the camera there are no cheap converters I would trust.

I tried a couple of computer monitors with component inputs with the HVX200 and was sorely disappointed in the monitoring result- save your coin.

The solution I was considering was an AJA ioHD to a computer monitor over HDMI. (keyword was, I am no longer considering cameras with analog component output as their primary HD monitoring)

If you use Macintosh systems for editing, you also get a nice 10bit 4:2:2 capture option for your HD. At $3495 ($2999 if you buy right now!)

Of course if you really want just monitoring, then at those prices you might as well get the LMD 2450, it will give you a better picture than a computer monitor.

[Russ Ivey]

I am in complete agreement with Bill on this. Although an LCD monitor is supposed to be the last resort in checking your picture, it is still completely necessary. A small 3.5" LCD or the viewfinder is not going to be sharp enough for you to know if your picture is exactly where it should be. It doesn't matter what the technician does to "fix" the camera. Here is a perfect example: When you look at that little 3.5" LCD on your camera, turn it upward or downward a hair. You will notice the picture changes. This is indicative that it's not reliable, because it's from a point of view perspective. A larger LCD HD Monitor will help you in eyeballing things.

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Chris,
short answer...very short....nothing's perfect, no camera in the world will capture a perfect scene every time. Mistakes happen, tungsten WB instead of outdoor WB, etc., etc. Mistakes happen all the time and need to be fixed in post. Scenes have too much contrast or not enough contrast(lighting errors) and the gamma curve is stretched in post causing color shifts, etc etc etc. If you don't apply some CC in post, you're ignoring a very powerful tool. Learn to use the color curve tool, it's indespensable. Unfortunately, the curves tool causes color shifts.

And the list goes on and on and on...