Atkins - By design - UWOL long form

Marj Atkins · May 15th, 2009, 05:24 AM

(Sorry - This post was a double entry for some reason so I have removed its large amount of content. Can't delete it entirely)

Mat Thompson · May 15th, 2009, 05:25 AM

No problem. I do understand the 'wip' approach, but I thought it would make sense to bring up thoughts as I see them at this stage.

"One thing I was interested in finding out from you all - do you think it helps to have the number sequence at the bottom of the screen throughout? Does this give my sequence an unprofessional look? Do I have any alternatives?"

I think it is necessary to illustrate the point and I think your method was ok. I do think it could be done in a more visually stimulating way and once you've got the point across maybe its repetition should be more subtle.

Marj Atkins · May 15th, 2009, 05:40 AM

Thanks Mat

Appreciate your help.

Marj

Mat Thompson · May 15th, 2009, 05:55 AM

Oh and my suggestion. Would be to use some sort of scroll + highlight/enlarging effect. So bring on the the number sequence (making the numbers bigger) from one side. As it scrolls across it highlights the relevant numbers in the sequence you are taking about. If you need more explanation or an example of this then give me shout and I'll mock something up.

Marj Atkins · May 15th, 2009, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat Thompson

Oh and my suggestion. Would be to use some sort of scroll + highlight/enlarging effect. So bring on the the number sequence (making the numbers bigger) from one side. As it scrolls across it highlights the relevant numbers in the sequence you are taking about. If you need more explanation or an example of this then give me shout and I'll mock something up.

Do you mean take out the continuous graphic of the numbers altogether and replace it with short versions of the same graphic that then scroll across the relevant sections while highlighting the numbers for that particular section?

Worth trying - if I understand you correctly although I'm just wondering if that won't make it a bit too busy?

Catherine Russell · May 15th, 2009, 11:06 AM

Hi Marj:

This is a fascinating topic, you narrate it well, the music is well suited and the color and beauty on display are breathtaking.

I have read over your discussions with Mat, and I think his suggestions are sound. I won't pile on because as you have said yourself, this is a works in progress and at this point you are getting the information, concept, visuals and narrative put together.... so that the real work of making it a film can then start to happen. So a critique on the "dynamic film" part of your work is way too premature this round.

I understand your sentiment of the woes associated with delivering a works in progress. Comments are made where you think to yourself, "of course! I'm going to do this!" But the beauty of this long form is that I'm finding that insightful comments are also made that I have never considered before, and it can shape and improve the entire make of the film with several more chances to work it in to the final product!

Mat's insights about broader sub plots held together by the mathematical principles found in plants is a good one, which I'm sure you are on route to do in later rounds.

As far as your number line at the bottom of your video I felt it worked well. I'm a hands on and visual person so the number line helped me understand what you were describing, much more so than if you didn't have it.

All the best. Your work is always an inspiration and a feast for the eyes.

Cat

Mat Thompson · May 15th, 2009, 12:10 PM

Hi Marj
Heres the sort of thing I had in mind. It needs some more thought graphically but the concept is there. It puts the relevant numbers within the sequence but makes the one your talking about obvious, delivers it, then takes you back to your clean footage.

This is done in max, which I think you have access too. If you want to take a look, just yell and I'll throw the file over on an email.

Mat

Marj Atkins · May 16th, 2009, 02:13 AM

Wow Mat - thanks so much for going to all the trouble of doing this. I'm impressed with your skills! I admit I did not visualize this when you described your idea and it does fit in pretty well with the math animations we have done already for another sequence.

Really appreciate your input!

Marj

Chris Swanberg · May 16th, 2009, 02:46 AM

The talents here, in so many disciplines, boggles my mind. I'd heard of Fibbonacci sequences but never related them to anything ... and BANG, along you come and tie math and nature together thru them. It really rocked my world a bit I admit. Good narration (a little distant sounding though, maybe closer and a little more volume? I dunno... didn't envelop me like it could have - just an observation).

Like Mat, I kind of envisioned the two sequence numbers under discussion having more animation or something to stand out as being a nice touch... I envisioned a magnifying glass, there the TWO active numbers in the string would be under the glass, and hence magnified over the rest. I don't think you want to detract from the image, but I think you need something to keep the viewer's eye engaged as you describe this facinating connection. (A zoom into the area or a rotating zoom, or arrows and lines depicting the rows under discussion ? Just thinking out loud here) Mat may have helped add that movement,and pizazz with his suggestion, or maybe you want to stagger various approaches including ones like his?

I too have concerns about how you can keep the viewer interested in the subject longer term. I know *I* would be, but people have short attention spans and need variety and motion. That is my sugggestion to you. The issue is fascinating by itself to curious minds, but add some motion, punch and variety to keep ALL your audience engaged. I think this may be your challenge here. The subject matter and images sure aren't.

I cannot wait to pop the Fibonacci number sequence on conifers around a campfire some night this summer. GREAT stuff!

Oh your footage, Superb. Top notch.

I am anxious to share this one with my friends ! Thanks Marj!

Chris Swanberg

Marj Atkins · May 16th, 2009, 02:49 AM

Thanks for you comments Cat. I really appreciate your ideas - and your feedback regarding the number line idea.

Marj

Marj Atkins · May 16th, 2009, 03:11 AM

Thanks Chris - lots of ideas and much appreciated. I guess most of us will be seeing maths in all sorts of wierd and wonderful places after this - just wait till you see the rest - it's truly mind-boggling.

Steve Siegel · May 17th, 2009, 04:28 PM

Marj,
It gets better and better. First of all, I think your voice is a big plus. I could listen to you all day long. It might be a good idea to say the numbers as they appear in your original
description of the Fibonacci sequence. Since it starts with zero, then one, then the one is repeated before going on, it is a bit confusing to someone who is unfamiliar with the concept of sum of previous two numbers give the next one. Also increased spacing between numbers might help. For continuity and to say that these numbers are part of the real world, I would superimpose the series over the previous scene instead of giving it its own blank background.
I find myself asking "why". You have to approach that, even if there is no answer but Divine Providence.
Somewhere after the pineapple you begin to discuss petal, sepal numbers, etc, and since you are only mentioning one number per plant (usually 5) the tie-in with Fibonacci becomes less obvious, and I find my train of thought wandering. It was all spirals. Now what is she saying?
Finally, I was confused with the Lucas series, and, having watched, still don't know what it is. Don't fall into the trap of trying to be all-inculsive in your explanations. It only can detract from what is a magnificent piece.

Marj Atkins · May 18th, 2009, 06:56 AM

Thanks for your feedback Steve - very helpful.

Your bit about my narration came as a surprise as I have generally been of the opinion that it is my weakest point. I have been hoping to find someone to do the final narration for me for this project.

This was all rushed together at the last minute (unintentionally) so I did not have time to do anything creative with it. The “Why?” will definitely be answered in another sequence - there is a very good reason for every little part of this (including the number of petals) and will become quite clear when this section is finally put into context.

Thanks for all your constructive suggestions. My basic graphics will become proper animations in the final project.

Per Johan Naesje · May 18th, 2009, 12:29 PM

Marj, first of all - what a beautiful scenes and colors you got here! Interesting topic too.
As others have said, it's a bit static to me. Different camera angle would have enhanged it a lot and maybe a time-laps (stop motion) too?

Will be interesting to watch your development to this one. Keep up your good work, Marj

Rob Evans · May 18th, 2009, 02:35 PM

Hi Marj,
Love your methodolgy and approach to this, your workload is fantastic!
I did begin to feel a little bombarded with too much similar information, and I felt that maybe that a few pauses here and there, to let the viewer absorb what they're seeing would might help. I really like your voice over - I think your voice works very well - have a little try perhaps at varying the tone and pace throughout - it can really help to enhance the viewers enjoyment and attention.
Image wise great detail shots. Wasn't so sure about some of the quick fades to very similar frames - just didn't sit well with me. A way around would be to flip the angle perhaps, or setup gentle pans for a little variety. Being incredibly picky, there were a couple of fades where the next sequence on the video track had flashed through for a frame or two. Watch out for these, because I know you'll only kick youself if you don't spot it 'til later on!!
But you have a very thorough, well researched and magical piece coming together here... best of luck with it!!!

May 18th, 2009, 06:56 AM	#43
Marj Atkins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg South Africa Posts: 768	Thanks for your feedback Steve - very helpful. Your bit about my narration came as a surprise as I have generally been of the opinion that it is my weakest point. I have been hoping to find someone to do the final narration for me for this project. This was all rushed together at the last minute (unintentionally) so I did not have time to do anything creative with it. The “Why?” will definitely be answered in another sequence - there is a very good reason for every little part of this (including the number of petals) and will become quite clear when this section is finally put into context. Thanks for all your constructive suggestions. My basic graphics will become proper animations in the final project. Last edited by Marj Atkins; May 18th, 2009 at 04:18 PM.

May 18th, 2009, 12:29 PM	#44
Per Johan Naesje Trustee Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Akershus, Norway Posts: 1,413	Marj, first of all - what a beautiful scenes and colors you got here! Interesting topic too. As others have said, it's a bit static to me. Different camera angle would have enhanged it a lot and maybe a time-laps (stop motion) too? Will be interesting to watch your development to this one. Keep up your good work, Marj __________________ - Per Johan

May 15th, 2009, 05:24 AM	#31
Marj Atkins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg South Africa Posts: 768	(Sorry - This post was a double entry for some reason so I have removed its large amount of content. Can't delete it entirely)

May 15th, 2009, 05:25 AM	#32
Mat Thompson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 1,397	No problem. I do understand the 'wip' approach, but I thought it would make sense to bring up thoughts as I see them at this stage. "One thing I was interested in finding out from you all - do you think it helps to have the number sequence at the bottom of the screen throughout? Does this give my sequence an unprofessional look? Do I have any alternatives?" I think it is necessary to illustrate the point and I think your method was ok. I do think it could be done in a more visually stimulating way and once you've got the point across maybe its repetition should be more subtle.

May 15th, 2009, 05:40 AM	#33
Marj Atkins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg South Africa Posts: 768	Thanks Mat Appreciate your help. Marj

May 15th, 2009, 05:55 AM	#34
Mat Thompson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 1,397	Oh and my suggestion. Would be to use some sort of scroll + highlight/enlarging effect. So bring on the the number sequence (making the numbers bigger) from one side. As it scrolls across it highlights the relevant numbers in the sequence you are taking about. If you need more explanation or an example of this then give me shout and I'll mock something up.

May 15th, 2009, 11:06 AM	#36
Catherine Russell Trustee Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lyons, Colorado Posts: 1,224	Hi Marj: This is a fascinating topic, you narrate it well, the music is well suited and the color and beauty on display are breathtaking. I have read over your discussions with Mat, and I think his suggestions are sound. I won't pile on because as you have said yourself, this is a works in progress and at this point you are getting the information, concept, visuals and narrative put together.... so that the real work of making it a film can then start to happen. So a critique on the "dynamic film" part of your work is way too premature this round. I understand your sentiment of the woes associated with delivering a works in progress. Comments are made where you think to yourself, "of course! I'm going to do this!" But the beauty of this long form is that I'm finding that insightful comments are also made that I have never considered before, and it can shape and improve the entire make of the film with several more chances to work it in to the final product! Mat's insights about broader sub plots held together by the mathematical principles found in plants is a good one, which I'm sure you are on route to do in later rounds. As far as your number line at the bottom of your video I felt it worked well. I'm a hands on and visual person so the number line helped me understand what you were describing, much more so than if you didn't have it. All the best. Your work is always an inspiration and a feast for the eyes. Cat

May 16th, 2009, 02:13 AM	#38
Marj Atkins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg South Africa Posts: 768	Wow Mat - thanks so much for going to all the trouble of doing this. I'm impressed with your skills! I admit I did not visualize this when you described your idea and it does fit in pretty well with the math animations we have done already for another sequence. Really appreciate your input! Marj

May 16th, 2009, 02:46 AM	#39
Chris Swanberg Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 904	The talents here, in so many disciplines, boggles my mind. I'd heard of Fibbonacci sequences but never related them to anything ... and BANG, along you come and tie math and nature together thru them. It really rocked my world a bit I admit. Good narration (a little distant sounding though, maybe closer and a little more volume? I dunno... didn't envelop me like it could have - just an observation). Like Mat, I kind of envisioned the two sequence numbers under discussion having more animation or something to stand out as being a nice touch... I envisioned a magnifying glass, there the TWO active numbers in the string would be under the glass, and hence magnified over the rest. I don't think you want to detract from the image, but I think you need something to keep the viewer's eye engaged as you describe this facinating connection. (A zoom into the area or a rotating zoom, or arrows and lines depicting the rows under discussion ? Just thinking out loud here) Mat may have helped add that movement,and pizazz with his suggestion, or maybe you want to stagger various approaches including ones like his? I too have concerns about how you can keep the viewer interested in the subject longer term. I know I would be, but people have short attention spans and need variety and motion. That is my sugggestion to you. The issue is fascinating by itself to curious minds, but add some motion, punch and variety to keep ALL your audience engaged. I think this may be your challenge here. The subject matter and images sure aren't. I cannot wait to pop the Fibonacci number sequence on conifers around a campfire some night this summer. GREAT stuff! Oh your footage, Superb. Top notch. I am anxious to share this one with my friends ! Thanks Marj! Chris Swanberg

May 16th, 2009, 02:49 AM	#40
Marj Atkins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg South Africa Posts: 768	Thanks for you comments Cat. I really appreciate your ideas - and your feedback regarding the number line idea. Marj

May 16th, 2009, 03:11 AM	#41
Marj Atkins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg South Africa Posts: 768	Thanks Chris - lots of ideas and much appreciated. I guess most of us will be seeing maths in all sorts of wierd and wonderful places after this - just wait till you see the rest - it's truly mind-boggling.

May 17th, 2009, 04:28 PM	#42
Steve Siegel Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Posts: 840	Marj, It gets better and better. First of all, I think your voice is a big plus. I could listen to you all day long. It might be a good idea to say the numbers as they appear in your original description of the Fibonacci sequence. Since it starts with zero, then one, then the one is repeated before going on, it is a bit confusing to someone who is unfamiliar with the concept of sum of previous two numbers give the next one. Also increased spacing between numbers might help. For continuity and to say that these numbers are part of the real world, I would superimpose the series over the previous scene instead of giving it its own blank background. I find myself asking "why". You have to approach that, even if there is no answer but Divine Providence. Somewhere after the pineapple you begin to discuss petal, sepal numbers, etc, and since you are only mentioning one number per plant (usually 5) the tie-in with Fibonacci becomes less obvious, and I find my train of thought wandering. It was all spirals. Now what is she saying? Finally, I was confused with the Lucas series, and, having watched, still don't know what it is. Don't fall into the trap of trying to be all-inculsive in your explanations. It only can detract from what is a magnificent piece.

May 18th, 2009, 02:35 PM	#45
Rob Evans Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 390	Hi Marj, Love your methodolgy and approach to this, your workload is fantastic! I did begin to feel a little bombarded with too much similar information, and I felt that maybe that a few pauses here and there, to let the viewer absorb what they're seeing would might help. I really like your voice over - I think your voice works very well - have a little try perhaps at varying the tone and pace throughout - it can really help to enhance the viewers enjoyment and attention. Image wise great detail shots. Wasn't so sure about some of the quick fades to very similar frames - just didn't sit well with me. A way around would be to flip the angle perhaps, or setup gentle pans for a little variety. Being incredibly picky, there were a couple of fades where the next sequence on the video track had flashed through for a frame or two. Watch out for these, because I know you'll only kick youself if you don't spot it 'til later on!! But you have a very thorough, well researched and magical piece coming together here... best of luck with it!!!