UWOL Announcements and Discussion - Talk Amongst Yourselves!

Bob Thieda · November 27th, 2008, 09:37 AM

My thanks to both of you...

And my apologies for the blatant thread jacking...

Bob T.

Meryem Ersoz · November 29th, 2008, 09:50 PM

ok, my friends, here are the rules that I promised - this is my rough draft, so feel free to make suggestions - i am going to close the suggestions period in one week, and we will begin sign-ups by the 2nd week of December, so this is your chance to help me tweak these....once we post them to the uwolchallenge.com website, we will not make any additional changes.

the one question that i have is: should we have one big feedback thread per player or 4 separate feedback threads per player (my sense is that four could get confusing, that you'll be better served by one ongoing thread, but then this may not get the attention you need...) what say the players?
--------------------------------

UWOL LONG-FORM

1. You must sign-up on the long-form contest sign-up thread at Dvinfo.net before the contest begins. The thread will close after two weeks, and no new entrants will be allowed after the thread is closed. A free account at DVinfo.net is required to play. Activation of your account may take up to one week, so if you are new to UWOL, you will need to get this done quickly.

2. By signing up, you are committing to one full year to make a long-form film
Minimum length: 20 minutes Maximum length: 90 minutes

3. You are required to post short versions of your work on a feedback thread 4x throughout the year. Your work can be defined as scripts, storyboards, footage – anything that brings you closer to the final production of your film. Your feedback thread should: give some context to your work, explain the effect you desire to achieve, and ask questions that you think will guide your community to giving you useful feedback.

4. You will give feedback to other players and receive feedback on your work on your threads on an ongoing basis. You may use these thread to pose additional questions throughout the year.

5. Your postings will take place during the weeks of February 8-11, May 10 - 13, August 9-12, and October 11-14. This should give you a window which will allow you to plan for these in advance. You must post to your feedback threads within each of these windows to be eligible to continue participating in the long-form contest. Missing a deadline disqualifies you from continuing on to the next deadline.

6. Keep in mind that the sooner you post, the more likely you are to receive the valuable feedback that will strengthen your project.

7. You must post a minimum of five minutes worth of footage during each feedback period. The sole exception to this rule is during the first feedback period, February 8-11, when you must post a minimum of 3 minutes worth of footage. The planning stages may consume more of your time on the front end, so the footage minimum is more relaxed.

8. File dimensions cannot exceed 428 x 240 and cannot exceed 180 mb in size. If you are making a longer film, we would suggest either shrinking the file dimensions or posting your draft footage to your own website or to the free footage site of your choice and providing a link back to your feedback thread. You are free to host your own draft material, if you decide that you want to exceed UWOL’s file sizes and dimensions.

9. Your final project must be posted the week of November 15, at which time your entry will be available for final judging. You will not post a feedback thread at this time, instead you will upload your file to the UWOL site. We will have a thread announcing the finalists and linking to your entry. This will be the one Giant Final Feedback thread that will serve all the finishers.

9. UWOL will archive your final project, but all draft footage materials will be discarded at the end of the contest, to save server space.

10. The winner will be announced December 1, 2009

11. We must have a minimum of five completed entries for the judging to take place.

12. Many of you will be basing your long-form project on an idea that you formulated during a previous Challenge round. Therefore, you can use up to 3 minutes of footage shot for previous UWOL short-form contests. All other footage must be unique to this Challenge and shot specifically to meet the requirements of the long-form contest.

Per Johan Naesje · November 30th, 2008, 03:13 AM

Thanks for making up the rules for this long form challenge Meryem!

A question comes to me, when reading the rules for the long form. There will also be additional 4 short ones, which will be annonced, each one with separate themes, doesn't it Meryem?

So that players who don't want to take part in a long competition for a whole year can compete in those short ones? And players who take part in the long form can even compete in the short ones too?

Will the short ones and the long form run in the same timeframe (February 8-11, May 10 - 13, August 9-12, and October 11-14)? Players who compete in both will have 2 separate entries in every round? If so can players use footage from the long form entry into the regular challenge (if the footage fits to the theme)?

I will definitive try to make room to be able to compete into this challenge, both the long- and short ones if possible!

Jeff Hendricks · November 30th, 2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

7. You must post a minimum of five minutes worth of footage during each feedback period. The sole exception to this rule is during the first feedback period, February 8-11, when you must post a minimum of 3 minutes worth of footage. The planning stages may consume more of your time on the front end, so the footage minimum is more relaxed.

Should this be edited footage? Or footage put togther in a presentable format to keep people from running out the day before and shooting anything just to make the timeline?

I am looking at the 4 posting as homework assignments to help me keep on track in making a film that I have been dreaming of for quite some time. I plan to share every aspect of my filmmaking process so that I can learn and get suggestions from the community. I plan to share my long range plans, my script, my shooting schedule, just get everything out there so that the community can say "Whoa, wait Jeff! That is NEVER going to work!". So my other question is...can we do that...put EVERYTHING out there...?

Kevin Railsback · November 30th, 2008, 11:00 AM

You also mentioned earlier that we could use a small amount of pre-shot footage. Is that the case?

I hate to have to go out and reshoot the same thing all over again. :)

Jeff, I think it would be great to have you document the entire process. We'll see what Meryem has to say about it.

I'm thinking mine will be out of sequence starting in the winter her so not sure if it'll make any sense.

Besides, I usually put mine together at the last moment anyway. :)

Look forward to getting this one started!

Bob Thieda · November 30th, 2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Hendricks

Should this be edited footage?

Oh, I hope not. I rarely edit anything until I look at everything I have to work with. :)

On a personal note, not really a problem with the rules...
I won't be getting my new camera until mid-late February, so anything I shoot for the Feb posting will, more than likey, not be in the final film.
So I don't know how that plays with the rules.

Bob

Meryem Ersoz · November 30th, 2008, 12:14 PM

Hi Per: Yes, there will still be 4 short-form challenges, business as usual...the only thing that will change about the short-form is the dates. I didn't post the short-form rules because everybody here knows them now.

Even Dale! Right, Dale?? (just teasing ya...)

Yes, Kevin, you can use 3 minutes -- the equivalent of one previous UWOL -- in your long-form film. I'll add that rule...

and yes, Jeff, you can put up EVERYTHING...this is about exposing your process, to get the feedback that you need to make it great.

and i prefer edited footage be uploaded for review - the purpose of this is to help you solve storytelling problems and critique your cinematography, audio, etc., and if we can't see your story, then we can't help you. you don't have to use these edits -- believe me, the first long-form piece that i ever edited had to be re-done several times --MAJOR re-edits will occur, sustaining the story is a big challenge.

and one reminder: anyone who feels like they would rather do it their way, *should* do it their way, on their own time. if you think that this method doesn't work with the way that you work, then you should find the work habits that suit you best and stick with them.

you can always shoot, edit, and deliver your own way, on your own time, and get great feedback from the regular "Under Water, Over Land" forum...no one has to play this game, but those that play, have to play by the same rules.

Kevin Railsback · November 30th, 2008, 02:25 PM

Well, should be interesting as my film will start probably in the Spring so the stuff I shoot in December-February will be somewhere towards the end. So, not sure if it'll all make sense but we'll see. :)

Hopefully in the next month or two, I can have a story locked and start shooting towards it.

Dale Guthormsen · November 30th, 2008, 05:39 PM

Good evening,

Yes, Dale a chronic rule breaker, can be taught. Still have trouble with stop signs in the middle of the vast open prairies!!

I will be doing a full, probably two part, film on the Saskatchewan Falconry.

It will be from taking a a baby and nurturing it until it is a competant hunter and then Hunting with Falcons through an entire season at various gamebirds.

An outdoor tv station has seen some my other work and have been pushing me to produce a couple features for them, so if I like it I have a place for it already.

Storyboarding is my hardest endevor, scripting second. Well, to be honest its all kind of hard, but if it was easy what is the point?

Having it due in November presents a bit of a problem so I will start by getting winter footage starting as soon as possible through February 28th.

Posting progress four times should be no problem at all.

I will be taking on a two partners in the endevor: My wife to do some filming and critiquing, and Nairn Gillies , a naturally talented camera man with a creative soul.

I think the rules are fine and I am sure others will have some fine suggestions.

I even like the dates for submissions.

The posting of progress reports is interesting and I suspect on thread per person is best as one can go over more of the progress discussions and give more succinct suggestions.

We need to know what percent of a project can be prior footage.

I will be stepping up to HD come February so that ought to add some fun to the program as well.

I have the cameras out today and getting everything tuned up.

When can we start filming!!

Revved and Ready

Meryem Ersoz · December 1st, 2008, 08:37 AM

Rule #12, the one Kevin pointed out, is now up...(it will move to a different spot in the list in the final form, but it was easier to tack it onto the end)

The one thing that is still chewing at me is whether we should have the short-form and the long-form contests posting at the same time. The way that I set up the dates, we could have short-form entries due the week before. Or we could have the whole thing, both short- and long- entries land at the same time - I can't decide whether that would be chaotic or convenient.

Thoughts?

Marj Atkins · December 1st, 2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

Rule #12, the one Kevin pointed out, is now up...(it will move to a different spot in the list in the final form, but it was easier to tack it onto the end)

The one thing that is still chewing at me is whether we should have the short-form and the long-form contests posting at the same time. The way that I set up the dates, we could have short-form entries due the week before. Or we could have the whole thing, both short- and long- entries land at the same time - I can't decide whether that would be chaotic or convenient.

Thoughts?

I feel that you should keep the feedback times for the two contests separate to avoid complicating matters - especially for those doing both forms.

In my experience it takes a long time to give feedback to each contestant and when one is trying to do this before the judge selects the winner it is a pretty intensive time. After that the site is pretty dead till the next contest.

Now that we have even more time in between contests wouldn't that be a good time to deal with the long-form films and do more justice to their critiques?

The long-form films won't be judged until the end of the year so their critique is not as urgent as the short-form films each round and can basically be done anytime between each of their postings.

Just another small by-the-by - in S.A. we have limited bandwidth and it’s possible I may not have enough available to download all the additional movies. Consequently I may only be able to download and crit the long-form films the following month anyway.

Dale Guthormsen · December 2nd, 2008, 07:29 AM

Meryem,

I personally weould like to have them at different times, perhaps by a month.

1. This allows me to focus on the short form with no worries.

2. I always need the full time frame to complete these, never quick and easy for me.

3. while I will be working all the time on the long form I would prefer not to have excess pressure for either one.

4. If they are both at a similar time I fear if things do not go just right I may end up in the shark tank. Want to stay out of there.

5. It also sprreads out the response time so one will not feel overwhelmed setting at the computer for continious hours as you would like to give a prompt response.

Meryem Ersoz · December 2nd, 2008, 09:02 AM

ok, i guess it never occurred to me that you all would want to do both! let me give the scheduling of both a bit more consideration....i don't want to prevent you people from fully torturing yourselves!

Trond Saetre · December 2nd, 2008, 01:44 PM

As others already have mentioned, I also would prefer the feedback for the long- and short form challenges should be separated by at least a week (or two) and not at the same time.
This would give the players time to concentrate about one film at a time.

Marj Atkins · December 2nd, 2008, 11:24 PM

Meryem I have a question.

What if the theme that someone has chosen for their long-form film does not prove viable after say six months of working on it - for whatever valid reason - be it unexpected, unfavourable conditions, subjects don't show-up, not working out the way they visualized it - what choices do they have?

Do they have to remain committed to the theme regardless or pull out or can they change their theme?

If so, how far down the line will you allow people to do this?

I can imagine quite a few people could re-think their themes at the beginning after laying out their ideas and getting responses and I can see that some folk could run into trouble even three months down the line after filming has started, but I am thinking too that someone could conceivably decide at the end to drop the film they have been submitting for comment all year because it is not working out for them and submit a film that no-one has seen before.

November 27th, 2008, 09:37 AM	#76
Bob Thieda Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Carol Stream, IL Posts: 541	My thanks to both of you... And my apologies for the blatant thread jacking... Bob T. __________________ Bob T.

November 29th, 2008, 09:50 PM	#77
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	Rules ok, my friends, here are the rules that I promised - this is my rough draft, so feel free to make suggestions - i am going to close the suggestions period in one week, and we will begin sign-ups by the 2nd week of December, so this is your chance to help me tweak these....once we post them to the uwolchallenge.com website, we will not make any additional changes. the one question that i have is: should we have one big feedback thread per player or 4 separate feedback threads per player (my sense is that four could get confusing, that you'll be better served by one ongoing thread, but then this may not get the attention you need...) what say the players? -------------------------------- UWOL LONG-FORM 1. You must sign-up on the long-form contest sign-up thread at Dvinfo.net before the contest begins. The thread will close after two weeks, and no new entrants will be allowed after the thread is closed. A free account at DVinfo.net is required to play. Activation of your account may take up to one week, so if you are new to UWOL, you will need to get this done quickly. 2. By signing up, you are committing to one full year to make a long-form film Minimum length: 20 minutes Maximum length: 90 minutes 3. You are required to post short versions of your work on a feedback thread 4x throughout the year. Your work can be defined as scripts, storyboards, footage – anything that brings you closer to the final production of your film. Your feedback thread should: give some context to your work, explain the effect you desire to achieve, and ask questions that you think will guide your community to giving you useful feedback. 4. You will give feedback to other players and receive feedback on your work on your threads on an ongoing basis. You may use these thread to pose additional questions throughout the year. 5. Your postings will take place during the weeks of February 8-11, May 10 - 13, August 9-12, and October 11-14. This should give you a window which will allow you to plan for these in advance. You must post to your feedback threads within each of these windows to be eligible to continue participating in the long-form contest. Missing a deadline disqualifies you from continuing on to the next deadline. 6. Keep in mind that the sooner you post, the more likely you are to receive the valuable feedback that will strengthen your project. 7. You must post a minimum of five minutes worth of footage during each feedback period. The sole exception to this rule is during the first feedback period, February 8-11, when you must post a minimum of 3 minutes worth of footage. The planning stages may consume more of your time on the front end, so the footage minimum is more relaxed. 8. File dimensions cannot exceed 428 x 240 and cannot exceed 180 mb in size. If you are making a longer film, we would suggest either shrinking the file dimensions or posting your draft footage to your own website or to the free footage site of your choice and providing a link back to your feedback thread. You are free to host your own draft material, if you decide that you want to exceed UWOL’s file sizes and dimensions. 9. Your final project must be posted the week of November 15, at which time your entry will be available for final judging. You will not post a feedback thread at this time, instead you will upload your file to the UWOL site. We will have a thread announcing the finalists and linking to your entry. This will be the one Giant Final Feedback thread that will serve all the finishers. 9. UWOL will archive your final project, but all draft footage materials will be discarded at the end of the contest, to save server space. 10. The winner will be announced December 1, 2009 11. We must have a minimum of five completed entries for the judging to take place. 12. Many of you will be basing your long-form project on an idea that you formulated during a previous Challenge round. Therefore, you can use up to 3 minutes of footage shot for previous UWOL short-form contests. All other footage must be unique to this Challenge and shot specifically to meet the requirements of the long-form contest. Last edited by Meryem Ersoz; December 1st, 2008 at 08:32 AM.

November 30th, 2008, 03:13 AM	#78
Per Johan Naesje Trustee Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Akershus, Norway Posts: 1,413	Long form + additional 4 individual short form entries? Thanks for making up the rules for this long form challenge Meryem! A question comes to me, when reading the rules for the long form. There will also be additional 4 short ones, which will be annonced, each one with separate themes, doesn't it Meryem? So that players who don't want to take part in a long competition for a whole year can compete in those short ones? And players who take part in the long form can even compete in the short ones too? Will the short ones and the long form run in the same timeframe (February 8-11, May 10 - 13, August 9-12, and October 11-14)? Players who compete in both will have 2 separate entries in every round? If so can players use footage from the long form entry into the regular challenge (if the footage fits to the theme)? I will definitive try to make room to be able to compete into this challenge, both the long- and short ones if possible! __________________ - Per Johan

November 30th, 2008, 11:00 AM	#80
Kevin Railsback Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa Posts: 1,544	You also mentioned earlier that we could use a small amount of pre-shot footage. Is that the case? I hate to have to go out and reshoot the same thing all over again. :) Jeff, I think it would be great to have you document the entire process. We'll see what Meryem has to say about it. I'm thinking mine will be out of sequence starting in the winter her so not sure if it'll make any sense. Besides, I usually put mine together at the last moment anyway. :) Look forward to getting this one started! __________________ --==Kevin==-- http:naturephotostudios.com.com

November 30th, 2008, 02:25 PM	#83
Kevin Railsback Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa Posts: 1,544	Well, should be interesting as my film will start probably in the Spring so the stuff I shoot in December-February will be somewhere towards the end. So, not sure if it'll all make sense but we'll see. :) Hopefully in the next month or two, I can have a story locked and start shooting towards it. __________________ --==Kevin==-- http:naturephotostudios.com.com

November 30th, 2008, 12:14 PM	#82
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	Hi Per: Yes, there will still be 4 short-form challenges, business as usual...the only thing that will change about the short-form is the dates. I didn't post the short-form rules because everybody here knows them now. Even Dale! Right, Dale?? (just teasing ya...) Yes, Kevin, you can use 3 minutes -- the equivalent of one previous UWOL -- in your long-form film. I'll add that rule... and yes, Jeff, you can put up EVERYTHING...this is about exposing your process, to get the feedback that you need to make it great. and i prefer edited footage be uploaded for review - the purpose of this is to help you solve storytelling problems and critique your cinematography, audio, etc., and if we can't see your story, then we can't help you. you don't have to use these edits -- believe me, the first long-form piece that i ever edited had to be re-done several times --MAJOR re-edits will occur, sustaining the story is a big challenge. and one reminder: anyone who feels like they would rather do it their way, should do it their way, on their own time. if you think that this method doesn't work with the way that you work, then you should find the work habits that suit you best and stick with them. you can always shoot, edit, and deliver your own way, on your own time, and get great feedback from the regular "Under Water, Over Land" forum...no one has to play this game, but those that play, have to play by the same rules.

November 30th, 2008, 05:39 PM	#84
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	Good evening, Yes, Dale a chronic rule breaker, can be taught. Still have trouble with stop signs in the middle of the vast open prairies!! I will be doing a full, probably two part, film on the Saskatchewan Falconry. It will be from taking a a baby and nurturing it until it is a competant hunter and then Hunting with Falcons through an entire season at various gamebirds. An outdoor tv station has seen some my other work and have been pushing me to produce a couple features for them, so if I like it I have a place for it already. Storyboarding is my hardest endevor, scripting second. Well, to be honest its all kind of hard, but if it was easy what is the point? Having it due in November presents a bit of a problem so I will start by getting winter footage starting as soon as possible through February 28th. Posting progress four times should be no problem at all. I will be taking on a two partners in the endevor: My wife to do some filming and critiquing, and Nairn Gillies , a naturally talented camera man with a creative soul. I think the rules are fine and I am sure others will have some fine suggestions. I even like the dates for submissions. The posting of progress reports is interesting and I suspect on thread per person is best as one can go over more of the progress discussions and give more succinct suggestions. We need to know what percent of a project can be prior footage. I will be stepping up to HD come February so that ought to add some fun to the program as well. I have the cameras out today and getting everything tuned up. When can we start filming!! Revved and Ready __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen

December 1st, 2008, 08:37 AM	#85
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	Rule #12, the one Kevin pointed out, is now up...(it will move to a different spot in the list in the final form, but it was easier to tack it onto the end) The one thing that is still chewing at me is whether we should have the short-form and the long-form contests posting at the same time. The way that I set up the dates, we could have short-form entries due the week before. Or we could have the whole thing, both short- and long- entries land at the same time - I can't decide whether that would be chaotic or convenient. Thoughts?

December 2nd, 2008, 07:29 AM	#87
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	posting Meryem, I personally weould like to have them at different times, perhaps by a month. 1. This allows me to focus on the short form with no worries. 2. I always need the full time frame to complete these, never quick and easy for me. 3. while I will be working all the time on the long form I would prefer not to have excess pressure for either one. 4. If they are both at a similar time I fear if things do not go just right I may end up in the shark tank. Want to stay out of there. 5. It also sprreads out the response time so one will not feel overwhelmed setting at the computer for continious hours as you would like to give a prompt response. __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen

December 2nd, 2008, 09:02 AM	#88
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	ok, i guess it never occurred to me that you all would want to do both! let me give the scheduling of both a bit more consideration....i don't want to prevent you people from fully torturing yourselves!

December 2nd, 2008, 01:44 PM	#89
Trond Saetre Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 3,375	As others already have mentioned, I also would prefer the feedback for the long- and short form challenges should be separated by at least a week (or two) and not at the same time. This would give the players time to concentrate about one film at a time.

December 2nd, 2008, 11:24 PM	#90
Marj Atkins Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Johannesburg South Africa Posts: 768	Meryem I have a question. What if the theme that someone has chosen for their long-form film does not prove viable after say six months of working on it - for whatever valid reason - be it unexpected, unfavourable conditions, subjects don't show-up, not working out the way they visualized it - what choices do they have? Do they have to remain committed to the theme regardless or pull out or can they change their theme? If so, how far down the line will you allow people to do this? I can imagine quite a few people could re-think their themes at the beginning after laying out their ideas and getting responses and I can see that some folk could run into trouble even three months down the line after filming has started, but I am thinking too that someone could conceivably decide at the end to drop the film they have been submitting for comment all year because it is not working out for them and submit a film that no-one has seen before.