Thoughts on Judging, Some Extra Commentary, and...A Surprise!

Per Johan Naesje · November 28th, 2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine Russell

Ruth: I too look for comment from everyone in the thread and am a little stung when someone's input doesn't show up. I can't help but think... was it that bad to not even get any input? However, I think it's up to the inspiration of the person to choose to write or not write in a thread. I too make certain I comment on everyone's films. But I think it would be sort of legalistic to require people to comment if they don't feel like it, do you think?

Cat

I have been commenting everyone else's entry so far. But if this community and number of entries grows, I don't think any of us are able to comment all entries!
I think it should be up the every single participants to make comments or not.

Meryem Ersoz · November 28th, 2007, 01:32 PM

these entries are coming so fast and furiously, i can't keep up....

but yes, we do hope to keep growing the contest...so i think it will be inevitable that keeping up with every single film might get harder....per makes a good point.

something else to think about!

everyone online together, all around the world!

Carl Middleton · November 28th, 2007, 01:54 PM

I'm planning on getting involved next year - I wanted to watch one first before jumping in the middle, see how things worked!

So that's one more entry to deal with. I'm sure there will be plenty of others to get involved after, as there have been plenty before me. :)

Carl

Trond Saetre · November 28th, 2007, 01:58 PM

Carl, welcome to the uwol family!
Always nice when new people join us.

Ruth Happel · November 28th, 2007, 03:08 PM

Yes, Cat and Per, I agree that feedback shouldn't be required. But I think maybe there isn't enough emphasis on it- the contest has evolved to a greater focus on judging than feedback. To me, the feedback is way more valuable than winning or losing. So given that I always comment on all the films, but generally get feedback from less than half the participants, I feel maybe we need to do something to emphasize feedback. Meryem, your comments on your participation the dvinfo contest mirror my own feelings about UWOL- I use these contests to challenge myself and learn new techniques. And the winning or losing just isn't a factor for me- but as you expressed, it seems to be a more important aspect of UWOL. I appreciate you giving a t-shirt for feedback, that was a great way to emphasize it! There aren't any easy answers, but I would at least like to explore ways to formalize and encourage feedback somehow.

Ruth

Meryem Ersoz · November 28th, 2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruth Happel

the contest has evolved to a greater focus on judging than feedback.

i think we do a pretty good job of the feedback, considering how many entries we put up. it is a lot of work. i appreciate all that the players do, in this regard. we all have jobs and families.

but feedback and judging, both, are only parts of a holistic process that also includes watching each others' work and making our own internal notes about how we can improve our own. there's really no where on on the web, possible in the world, which serves its target the way this contest does.

i don't want to get too distracted in this discussion--the reason i raised it is that this part of the process--the judging--is the single most criticized part of the contest, and my intent is to improve upon it. i think the overall experience is a solid one...actually, it is so solid that the judging, by comparison, seemed like it had a few holes to plug.

Benjamin Durin · November 28th, 2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine Russell

I too look for comment from everyone in the thread and am a little stung when someone's input doesn't show up. I can't help but think... was it that bad to not even get any input? However, I think it's up to the inspiration of the person to choose to write or not write in a thread. I too make certain I comment on everyone's films. But I think it would be sort of legalistic to require people to comment if they don't feel like it, do you think?

Cat, I don't write feedback for each entry. There are several reasons for that:
1) If one or more persons already wrote what I wanted to input then I don't want to repeat what they said.
2) I can't help but emphasize what I didn't like in a movie. Even for one I loved, I may write 20% positive feedback and 80% negative feedback. It often sounds harsher than I would like and I don't want to let other people think I don't like any movies, because it is not true.
3) Time. It takes time writing feedback. I already had to squeeze time to make this entry, it's difficult taking more time for feedback and judging. But I do my best I swear.

I also don't expect everyone to write feedback for my entry for the same reasons I cited above. Don't get me wrong, I love to have feedback and I am grateful to those who wrote one for my entry.

Meryem, for the judging, keep it simple (for you). I only had one out of the three in my list but I don't think it's a big deal. There are different tastes in there and it is fine.
Oh, I see here the point to have a different judge each time. If we vote ourselves each time, it will be more or less the same taste dominating. But with an external judge, it is a different taste each time so more variety in the judging. Does it make sense? Maybe alternating with an external judge every other challenge would be a good idea?

Per Johan Naesje · November 29th, 2007, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Durin

Oh, I see here the point to have a different judge each time. If we vote ourselves each time, it will be more or less the same taste dominating. But with an external judge, it is a different taste each time so more variety in the judging. Does it make sense? Maybe alternating with an external judge every other challenge would be a good idea?

That's what I think too, altenate every second time will be nice. Meryem, what do you think about this for next year judging?

Trond Saetre · November 29th, 2007, 01:55 AM

This sounds like a good idea to me. Or maybe using an external judge 4 of 6 times a year if that reduce the workload for Meryem?

Meryem Ersoz · November 29th, 2007, 07:16 AM

it's kind of along the lines of what i was thinking, after listening to everybody's ideas...a mix of outside judging with self-judging. after trying both ways, i think both methods of judging have advantages and disadvantages--neither is perfect. so mixing it up might be a good way to keep things fresh.

Meryem Ersoz · November 29th, 2007, 07:41 AM

and one last word regarding feedback--i didn't mean to put you off, ruth, regarding your feedback about feedback--it's just that it's another issue which has a broad diversity of opinion. some of our players feel we should be more more hard-nosed in our criticism, that our challenge has too much "happy talk" and not enough hard-line critique, and other people see feedback as a community-building experience, as a social experience, as a place for finding support for what they do.

some people have thicker skins than other people, and some folks have thinner skins about receiving criticism. sometimes a friendly wave of the hand is all that is left to say, as benjamin has pointed out....sometimes people post entries just to play along, to be part of it, not because they even want feedback--i certainly do that. sometimes, if your name is kevin, you make something really pretty, post it, and then try to hide it under a rock. et cetera.

we need to respect the diversity of players' motives for playing. for some people, it's feedback, for some people it's community, for some people, it's as simple as HAVE FUN. right, trond? i think feedback is multi-purposed. "feedback" may even be a misnomer, actually....

everyone has a little bit of a different emphasis on why they sign up, so it is something that just has to play out in the relational field, rather than in the field of rules, in my opinion.

now that i've re-opened that can o' worms myself!....

Ruth Happel · November 29th, 2007, 09:33 AM

Meryem,

Okay, it seems there is such a diverse community, any form of feedback will be equally varied. And though comments are important to me, not so much to everyone else, necessarily. I like the concensus view so far of switching between self judging and outside judges. In the rounds where we do the judging, I'll note my most and least favorite aspects of the winning films, since that should be helpful feedback to the winners, anyway. Thanks for opening up this dialogue, it was helpful to discuss judging.

Ruth

Geir Inge · November 29th, 2007, 10:26 AM

I have trown in my point of view in this judging matter, and it's great to see we all are dedicated to the question. I just want to quote one of my "old" friends:
"You can't stay in your corner of the forest, waiting for others to come to you; you have to go to them sometimes".
Winnie the Pooh

Geir Inge

Catherine Russell · November 29th, 2007, 07:29 PM

Hey Geir:

It puts a smile on my face imagining Winnie the Pooh speaking in Norwegian ;-).

Cato

Catherine Russell · November 29th, 2007, 07:41 PM

And Benjamin.... We should be joined at the hip on these feedback threads... I'm just about the opposite than you are in that I think I'm more 80% positive and maybe 20% negative in my comments. So between the two of us, some constructive truths might be gleaned ;-). You and Chris have pointed out lots of good reasons why you may not comment on every thread... I won't worry about it next time!

November 28th, 2007, 03:08 PM	#35
Ruth Happel Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Black Mountain, NC Posts: 488	Yes, Cat and Per, I agree that feedback shouldn't be required. But I think maybe there isn't enough emphasis on it- the contest has evolved to a greater focus on judging than feedback. To me, the feedback is way more valuable than winning or losing. So given that I always comment on all the films, but generally get feedback from less than half the participants, I feel maybe we need to do something to emphasize feedback. Meryem, your comments on your participation the dvinfo contest mirror my own feelings about UWOL- I use these contests to challenge myself and learn new techniques. And the winning or losing just isn't a factor for me- but as you expressed, it seems to be a more important aspect of UWOL. I appreciate you giving a t-shirt for feedback, that was a great way to emphasize it! There aren't any easy answers, but I would at least like to explore ways to formalize and encourage feedback somehow. Ruth __________________ http://rockfowl.com/

November 29th, 2007, 07:41 AM	#41
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	oh, and... and one last word regarding feedback--i didn't mean to put you off, ruth, regarding your feedback about feedback--it's just that it's another issue which has a broad diversity of opinion. some of our players feel we should be more more hard-nosed in our criticism, that our challenge has too much "happy talk" and not enough hard-line critique, and other people see feedback as a community-building experience, as a social experience, as a place for finding support for what they do. some people have thicker skins than other people, and some folks have thinner skins about receiving criticism. sometimes a friendly wave of the hand is all that is left to say, as benjamin has pointed out....sometimes people post entries just to play along, to be part of it, not because they even want feedback--i certainly do that. sometimes, if your name is kevin, you make something really pretty, post it, and then try to hide it under a rock. et cetera. we need to respect the diversity of players' motives for playing. for some people, it's feedback, for some people it's community, for some people, it's as simple as HAVE FUN. right, trond? i think feedback is multi-purposed. "feedback" may even be a misnomer, actually.... everyone has a little bit of a different emphasis on why they sign up, so it is something that just has to play out in the relational field, rather than in the field of rules, in my opinion. now that i've re-opened that can o' worms myself!....

November 29th, 2007, 09:33 AM	#42
Ruth Happel Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Black Mountain, NC Posts: 488	Meryem, Okay, it seems there is such a diverse community, any form of feedback will be equally varied. And though comments are important to me, not so much to everyone else, necessarily. I like the concensus view so far of switching between self judging and outside judges. In the rounds where we do the judging, I'll note my most and least favorite aspects of the winning films, since that should be helpful feedback to the winners, anyway. Thanks for opening up this dialogue, it was helpful to discuss judging. Ruth __________________ http://rockfowl.com/

November 29th, 2007, 10:26 AM	#43
Geir Inge Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Larsnes, Norway Posts: 1,343	I have trown in my point of view in this judging matter, and it's great to see we all are dedicated to the question. I just want to quote one of my "old" friends: "You can't stay in your corner of the forest, waiting for others to come to you; you have to go to them sometimes". Winnie the Pooh Geir Inge __________________ Geir Inge B. Brekke Visit me at: https://vimeo.com/gibbfilm

November 28th, 2007, 01:32 PM	#32
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	these entries are coming so fast and furiously, i can't keep up.... but yes, we do hope to keep growing the contest...so i think it will be inevitable that keeping up with every single film might get harder....per makes a good point. something else to think about! everyone online together, all around the world!

November 28th, 2007, 01:54 PM	#33
Carl Middleton Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Fernandina Beach, FL Posts: 562	I'm planning on getting involved next year - I wanted to watch one first before jumping in the middle, see how things worked! So that's one more entry to deal with. I'm sure there will be plenty of others to get involved after, as there have been plenty before me. :) Carl

November 28th, 2007, 01:58 PM	#34
Trond Saetre Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 3,375	Carl, welcome to the uwol family! Always nice when new people join us.

November 29th, 2007, 01:55 AM	#39
Trond Saetre Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 3,375	This sounds like a good idea to me. Or maybe using an external judge 4 of 6 times a year if that reduce the workload for Meryem?

November 29th, 2007, 07:16 AM	#40
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	it's kind of along the lines of what i was thinking, after listening to everybody's ideas...a mix of outside judging with self-judging. after trying both ways, i think both methods of judging have advantages and disadvantages--neither is perfect. so mixing it up might be a good way to keep things fresh.

November 29th, 2007, 07:29 PM	#44
Catherine Russell Trustee Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lyons, Colorado Posts: 1,224	Hey Geir: It puts a smile on my face imagining Winnie the Pooh speaking in Norwegian ;-). Cato

November 29th, 2007, 07:41 PM	#45
Catherine Russell Trustee Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lyons, Colorado Posts: 1,224	And Benjamin.... We should be joined at the hip on these feedback threads... I'm just about the opposite than you are in that I think I'm more 80% positive and maybe 20% negative in my comments. So between the two of us, some constructive truths might be gleaned ;-). You and Chris have pointed out lots of good reasons why you may not comment on every thread... I won't worry about it next time!