Big birds on the wing ... Your Opinion, please

[Brendan Marnell]

Grant, I'm sure Per Johan will address your technical question when he comes back from the weekend but it sounds like a good idea to me.

Mountains in Ireland have in general been "flattened" by major ice ages so we have rolling hills rather than towering peaks. No cliffs, no gorges nor canyons, apart from one vertical sea cliff in Co.Clare called Cliffs of Moher which are spectacular and attract guillemots and fulmars but these birds are too small and fast for my cam & lack of skill .. yes there is good birdlife near Dublin, lots of curlews, oystercatchers, turnstones, gulls etc but trust me to be more interested in the less familiar !! Faraway cows have long horns ...

[Grant Sherman]

"Faraway cows have long horns..." I like it!

I've only been to your lovely country once. (To watch Scotland lose a rugby match - something about a Triple Crown?) I had the opportunity to visit the Wicklow Mountains and was very impressed. Ok, it's not Spain, but areas like Glendalough still have the steep hillsides that raptors love.

BBC Wildlife magazine have an article on photographing birds in flight in their sept issue. Top tip was to shoot when the wind and the sunlight are from roughly the same direction.

[Pedro Paiva]

Well, Brendan, originally I come from the advertising agencies world where any decent agency uses mac and absolutelly BANS any PCs with their viruses from the networks. My second computer (after an MSX, off course) was an Amiga. After that I tried a few XTs and then the 286s but when I got my hands on my first Mac I could never go back to PCs again.
I don't know if might sound a bit "too strong" but whenever I see anybody using a PC on a graphic design or video editing project it just looks really "amateur" to me... It looks like they just can't afford to work with Macs.
I can't really understand why someone would actually CHOOSE to use a computer that crashes all the time and has a high risk of getting thousands os viruses than to use a Mac that "just works fine".
Well, that's what I think anyway.
I also have a question to you. We were discussing about camera brands on another topic and a guy said he always associated Mac users with Canon owners and PC users with Sony owners. I don't know if things are different there in the States but I always used Macs and Sony cameras. What's your opinion on that?
Cheers.
PP

Originally Posted by Brendan Marnell

That's it Pedro. That's half of what I wanted to know. You have confirmed what Nick Weeks hinted at already. Thank you both for revealing that many videographers use mac not pc. I suppose that point has already been stated on DVInfo a hundred times ... I swear I never saw it or realised how significant it may be.

I wonder if the Master of the Hounds has any tally of the split between mac and pc on the Forum or is anybody prepared to hazard a guess at the ratio among videgraphers?? In your geographic area ?? In your company or firm or club or among your buddies?

This is not idle curiosity; I genuinely need to know how significant this split is so as to make it less difficult for viewers to see future clips on the Forum or elsewhere. It's hard enough persuading you to interrupt your philandering or whatever takes your fancy just to eyeball a flying turkey but I have no hope at all if you can't do so without hassle and stutter ... I know a guy who got a hernia during a far less complex manouvre ... never mind all that!

Any chance of a tally OR a link to an existing tally !!!

And thank you Grant for the link to Tom Shevlin's site.

[Brendan Marnell]

I want an hour to reply to you Pedro but it's half-time during the All Ireland Hurling Final between my home county Kilkenny and Cork and I'll be back to you again tonight. very exciting game, hurling ...

[Pedro Paiva]

Yes, I'm sure it is mate!
Please just don't take my comments on a bad way as I just said what I really think (something that people doesn't really do most of the times...)
I'll read your reply tomorrow as it's 11pm here in Thailand by now...

Cheers and good game for your team!

PP

Originally Posted by Brendan Marnell

I want an hour to reply to you Pedro but it's half-time during the All Ireland Hurling Final between my home county Kilkenny and Cork and I'll be back to you again tonight. very exciting game, hurling ...

[Brendan Marnell]

Originally Posted by Pedro Paiva

... I don't know if might sound a bit "too strong" but whenever I see anybody using a PC on a graphic design or video editing project it just looks really "amateur" to me... It looks like they just can't afford to work with Macs.
PP

That sounds familiar to me even though I'm years out of touch with commercial life ... I remember hearing 10 years ago that ad. agencies and graphic designers never even considered using a pc in those days because Mac specifically designed their technology to cater for the graphics, camera & film industries. I believe it is taking pcs years to catch up and, never having used a Mac, I don't know whether they have or not caught up ...

<<<I can't really understand why someone would actually CHOOSE to use a computer that crashes all the time and has a high risk of getting thousands os viruses than to use a Mac that "just works fine".>>>

I've been using pcs for 12 years, for private purposes only but on a daily basis; I don't know what a "crash" is; I've never had a virus. I use email, buy online, regularly browse, Google for hours, use several photoshop packages ... no problems except my own slowness at learning. But then I have an auto delete on every unsolicited email, none of which I have ever bothered to open in 12 years ... people say that helps a lot.

<<<<I also have a question to you. We were discussing about camera brands on another topic and a guy said he always associated Mac users with Canon owners and PC users with Sony owners. I don't know if things are different there in the States but I always used Macs and Sony cameras. What's your opinion on that?>>>

My honest answer to that must be, I don't know. I am guessing that Macs users are more common than pc users among camera, video, graphics professionals in the US and this, as you are suggesting, may be true all over the world. I would like very much to know the answer. I must do a few searches in this Forum and if you find any statistics or info on this I'd be glad to know about it. I'm too long out of touch to even make a guess at a comparison of Mac and Canon users with Sony and pc users. Sorry to have so little to offer but it might be worth trying a few searches on this Forum ... so will I.

[Per Johan Naesje]

Hello all, thanks a lot for all comments to this thread so far.

To Pedro: It will be no problems to provide quicktime-files of the footage. Whan Brendan got his own website up and go, he can provide both file-formats. Until then we have to live with only one file-format because of the diskspace I'm able to provide for him!

To Grant: Yes, it's possible to slow down part of a clip dynamacially. But if the footage bounce heavily the bird will still blur in slow motion.

[Brendan Marnell]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

The H1 is considered expensive on this board, and the accessories
required to make it all work add many thousands to the price tag,
but compared to an Arri SRIII and even one long lens the H1 is
a good deal. For me the H1 is the only affordable choice.

IMO, the most important peice of the "flying bird footage" puzzle is
the tripod. I use a Vinten Vision 3 (~$2000), but there are
better ones out there.

Jacques, you also mention a centering cross on the H1. I presume this is on the viewfinder. 2 questions please ... Is the H1 viewfinder better (for flight footage) than XL2? Does Vinten Vision 3 have some kind of smooth spring action that helps keep the viewfinder on the flying bird when the cam has to be tilted up and down?

[Dale Guthormsen]

Brendan,

I have not been able to get on the computer for weeks, just to busy, but have shot a few hours of footage in the mean time.

I like many people already had a high profile pc and when it came time to start editing video and such I couldn't justify buying a mac to just do that. I would reckon that more amaterurs use a pc than a mac, just by shear numbers in use.

Also, I have spent time with my partner with his mac and he has i movie and the professional version. it is a cool machine but in the end you can't tell which computer the vido was edited on.

As far as crashing, I only ever had that problem when I used pennicle products. I have not had that problem with the adobe products to date.

I think the pc world is progressing at a huge rate and I do not think the amateur need go to the Mac if they already are working on a pc.
I taught computers back in the commodor 64 days and the Apple 2 e. the world is tending to go windows, whcih is why apple is now making apples that run windows and use the new processors.
it is all very interesting.

Is anyone running linux as an operating system and using adober products?

[Jacques Mersereau]

<<< I presume this is on the viewfinder.>>>

Yes.

<<<Is the H1 viewfinder better (for flight footage) than XL2?>>>

No, not really. Focus is still difficult on all XL models without
the expensive optional viewfinder. I need to somehow afford it
or an external monitor, but workings one's way through brush
makes an external monitor problematic imo.


<<<<Does Vinten Vision 3 have some kind of smooth spring action that helps keep the viewfinder on the flying bird when the cam has to be tilted up and down?>>>

Yes.
But first off, the H1 is much heavier than the XL1 or XL2.
Mass seems to help stabilize things. Although some might
disagree, I have heard the
Vision 3's action described as
"walking on the moon in marshmellow shoes."
Finding and keeping a flying bird in the center of your shot when
using the EOS adapter and 100-400mm Canon EF lens takes a lot of
practice, but tilting down or up for me is pretty easy and the least
of my trouble. Getting locked on the bird to begin with is the hardest
thing IMO.

[Brendan Marnell]

Thank you Dale for observation based on experience ...

<<<<I think the pc world is progressing at a huge rate and I do not think the amateur need go to the Mac if they already are working on a pc.>>>

... I wouldn't know where to start with a Mac and Premiere Pro works fine at a basic level on pc when I keep my head down.

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

<<<Is the H1 viewfinder better (for flight footage) than XL2?>>>

No, not really. Focus is still difficult on all XL models without
the expensive optional viewfinder. I need to somehow afford it
or an external monitor, but workings one's way through brush
makes an external monitor problematic imo.


<<<<Does Vinten Vision 3 have some kind of smooth spring action that helps keep the viewfinder on the flying bird when the cam has to be tilted up and down?>>>

Yes.
But first off, the H1 is much heavier than the XL1 or XL2.
Mass seems to help stabilize things. Although some might
disagree, I have heard the Vision 3's action described as
"walking on the moon in marshmellow shoes."
Finding and keeping a flying bird in the center of your shot when
using the EOS adapter and 100-400mm Canon EF lens takes a lot of
practice, but tilting down or up for me is pretty easy and the least
of my trouble. Getting locked on the bird to begin with is the hardest
thing IMO.

I am surprised by the extra weight of H1. I must try it out soon and the Vision 3 if I can find one. What I am really nervous about is what happens to a cam when one adds on the EOS adapter and a big lens ... if I just have to use a tripod to steady that weight how will I position the tripod and lock on to flying birds appearing from all angles at varying speeds, especially when my favourite location is on the edge of a cliff of needle rocks? I use Meryem's trick of a towel on top of the car or a rock at more convenient locations (nests & roosts), fair enough, and I do find the XM2 (GL2) is easy to lock on to flight when handheld. But once the bird lands and I have to go still every bloody pulse in my veins registers on the footage ... for a start I must learn how to extend speed/duration on PPro and then there's the matter of holding my breath (& stopping my heart) for a few seconds longer ... it is interesting that the movement of the cam while tracking flight seems to cloak the effect of being handheld. I wonder would Canon like to upgrade their IS accordingly!

[Jacques Mersereau]

<<<What I am really nervous about is what happens to a cam when one adds on the EOS adapter and a big lens ... if I just have to use a tripod to steady that weight how will I position the tripod and lock on to flying birds appearing from all angles at varying speeds, especially when my favourite location is on the edge of a cliff of needle rocks?>>>>

Don't worry, you will NOT be able to lock onto birds appearing from
all kinds of different angles. Essentially, when you use the
EOS/XL/100-400mm lens combo, a postage stamp at 30 ft
fills the screen when the lens is fully WIDE.
Like I said, the biggest trouble is actually getting
whatever object it is you are trying to record in the viewfinder. ;-)
That is why it was almost a miracle that I got any footage of the
eagle attacking the nest in "An Osprey Homecoming."

<<<I use Meryem's trick of a towel on top of the car or a rock at more convenient locations (nests & roosts)>>>

Yeah, you can forget about that trick with the rig listed above. The
slightest bump or hand shake turns into an 9. magnitude earthquake in the viewfinder when zoomed in. :)

[Brendan Marnell]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

<<<
.... you will NOT be able to lock onto birds appearing from
all kinds of different angles. Essentially, when you use the
EOS/XL/100-400mm lens combo, a postage stamp at 30 ft
fills the screen when the lens is fully WIDE.
Like I said, the biggest trouble is actually getting whatever object it is you are trying to record in the viewfinder. ;-)
... with the rig listed above. The slightest bump or hand shake turns into an 9. magnitude earthquake in the viewfinder when zoomed in. :)

I accept all you say about the requirements for using "the rig listed above". I may never get that far. But leaving "Osprey" aside, I found on a search under "contact points" that in 2004 you made good use of a piece of gear called Marztech or similar and did without a tripod at times. I'm sure you were not toting "the rig listed above" in those days. What cam were you shooting with then and would you recommend the Marztech gear or its modern equivalent now for an amateur using that cam today? A few upsides and downsides would be appreciated if you can remember ...

[Jacques Mersereau]

Originally Posted by Brendan Marnell

<EDIT) Marztech or similar and did without a tripod at times. I'm sure you were not toting "the rig listed above" in those days.

Two different things we are talking about here.

The Marzpak was a hand held support system similar to the EZrigII.
A back pack- overhead support system that holds/floats the camera
in front of the operator.
With the addition of an underslung weight who's mass helped
stabilize the camera and the bungee cord's shock absorbtion,
the Marzpak made 'going handheld' comfortable
and shots smoother. I used the 16X lens with good results even
zoomed in, but I am pretty good at keeping the camera still.


That said, the 100-400mm lens/EOS combo with its 7.2 magnification
factor is all together different. Even on a good solid tripod,
footage is hard to get smooth due to the incredible focal length.

Yes, if I were to go out handheld with my H1 and the stock
lens I would definitely use a Marzpak
(they're not available anymore except used), but for
EOS and 35mm glass I carry the camera on a tripod.

[Brendan Marnell]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

With the addition of an underslung weight who's mass helped
stabilize the camera and the bungee cord's shock absorbtion,
the Marzpak made 'going handheld' comfortable
and shots smoother. I used the 16X lens with good results even
zoomed in, but I am pretty good at keeping the camera still.


That said, the 100-400mm lens/EOS combo with its 7.2 magnification
factor is all together different. Even on a good solid tripod,
footage is hard to get smooth due to the incredible focal length.

Yes, if I were to go out handheld with my H1 and the stock
lens I would definitely use a Marzpak
(they're not available anymore except used), but for
EOS and 35mm glass I carry the camera on a tripod.

At last, lifted (no i didn't steal it) my first XLH1 yesterday ... 2.5 kgs (5.5 lbs) and that's with standard lens and smallest battery; more than twice as heavy as the XM2 (GL2). And the load of XLH1 seems to tip forward, making less use of the shoulder pad and putting more weight on the wrist. None of this would matter if I'd just get smart and 1. use a decent tripod +/- ronsrail, 2. stick to manual focus until I get it right ... or would it matter?

Would anybody who cares to please have a quick look at Griffon Vulture clip on this forum and tell me what sort of camcorder/lens/tripod +/-/settings/focus set-up [all gear costing less than $20,000] you would choose to shoot a proper 25 second job given the video opportunity shown in this clip?