The Ethics of Wildlife Shooting

Rodney Compton · March 13th, 2006, 06:06 PM

Thanks mate

You folks on DVi are re-deeming my view of the States. The whole world is affected by the circus up on Capital Hill, but you guys you are real - I suggest you run for President and give the world a tonic.

Rod C

p.s I lost a stone last month - do you think they would let us start a thread for old timers

Patrick King · March 13th, 2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

In my opinion, this is the single most important topic going on this site. Thanks for all your input,

Chris,

Man, I love your forum, but I've got to disagree with you on this one. The filming of animals cannot be compared in the same class as the abuse that happens in the filming of some people. Even the IMDB description says it is abuse by including this in the listing: "This documentary exploits the happenings of a small town West Va. resident..." If you want to see unethical film making, watch this film.

Its like all the folks who were crying like babies over two bears that had to be put down when they bit a child but the same folks don't care a lick for the people in their community that are dying. Animals come in a distant second to people in my book, but before you go off, I do not film any animals beyond household pets that wander into frame when filming people who asked to be filmed.

J. Stephen McDonald · March 13th, 2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney Compton

p.s I lost a stone last month - do you think they would let us start a thread for old timers

I lost a stone in a month about a year ago, but that was too fast to sustain. Maybe about 3-4 lbs. would be a better rate over a long period. How many people besides me in the U.S. even know how much a stone is? I'm packing about 14 now and still have about 1 stone to lose (one stone of fat, that is). I thought this already was an old-timers thread.

Brendan Marnell · March 14th, 2006, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick King

The filming of animals cannot be compared in the same class as the abuse that happens in the filming of some people. Even the IMDB description says it is abuse by including this in the listing: "This documentary exploits the happenings of a small town West Va. resident..." If you want to see unethical film making, watch this film.

Its like all the folks who were crying like babies over two bears that had to be put down when they bit a child but the same folks don't care a lick for the people in their community that are dying. Animals come in a distant second to people in my book...., .

Oh Patrick you might have been shocked at the animal idolatry apparent on The Dog Show on BBC over recent weekends; at least I was, but then maybe it was something other than idolatry and I misunderstood it? I have stared in amazement for minutes at a pot of dionysia smothered by its dome of tiny flowers ... I still gawk at girls who project their loveliness without flaunting it, and last spring I gasped at my ultimate altar rails when confronted with 2 pot-fulls of scented dionysia domes side-by-side ... sinking my nose into that lot was very pleasant indeed ... but was it idolatrous (a still would appear if i knew how to link it)? What would I have done to care for the gentleman from Kidderminster who grew those dionysias ... well that's easy 'cos I admire him and his botanical deeds; I have so much to learn from him it would be a win/win.

But what about my elderly neighbours who don't get around at all ? or my younger neighbours who get around too much ? thanks for reminding me not to slink away without being aware that I must do better. So, is it a matter of each of us figuring out and refiguring our own priorities? Would it be as simplistic as: 1. People we like 2. Wildlife we like. 3. Wildlife we don't like. 4. People we don't like. 5 People we're afraid of. 6 Wildlife we're afraid of.

It's chilly enough withstanding a blast of real self-scrutiny? How would we survive some mutual inspection of our priorities? But then it was a wise man, Jack Dominion, who upset many people years ago with the revelation that "The process of growing-up was not matter of progressing from baby dependence to adult independence but from baby dependence to adult inter-dependence." Should we discuss "sore things" under a separate thread? If not, then I guess we'll stick to discussing less threatening subjects like wildlife.. semi-domesticated and otherwise. Or what did Patrick say?

Alan Craven · March 14th, 2006, 05:18 AM

Brendan,

Surely, whether one individual "likes" or "does not like" is hardly an acceptable measure of quality, ethics, etc.

Brendan Marnell · March 14th, 2006, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Forman

It's when you interact with them, as opposed to observing, that the trouble begins. Many creatures have never met a human.

How about "like to observe" or just "observe". Or what term would you use Alan? Help me out.

Patrick King · March 14th, 2006, 06:13 AM

Brendan,

If your video is as smooth as your prose, we've got to see some footage, because you could make a pit-bull fight look like a romp through a spring meadow.

Meryem Ersoz · March 14th, 2006, 08:25 AM

patrick, undoubtedly there's a whole 'nother thread about the ethics of shooting people. or maybe there's not, because that's an always already ongoing discussion throughout the rest of dvinfo.net, inherent to many existing discussions. the wildlife forum is a relatively new addition and gives us a context to engage in more focused discussions about issues in shooting nature, wildlife, the outdoors. the wildlife forum was created because a bunch of people asked for it, wanted to talk about practices specific to shooting wildlife and nature. i started this thread because i was observing some wildlife shooting practices in current, popular films/videos were unsettling to me and thought this would be the logical place to find an interesting discussion about them, from other practitioners.

chris can obviously speak for himself, but i think his comment was an attempt to validate a discussion which was struggling to get off the ground. and the moment chris stamped it with his approval, the conversation took off. but i wouldn't take his comment too far out of context.

having said that, i am always disturbed by comments such as "animals come in a distant second to people." compassion is one of the highest expressions of our humanity, lack of compassion one of the lowest. indifference to the diverse species of this planet is only a marker pointing to the degradation of our own.

Alan Craven · March 14th, 2006, 10:27 AM

Brendan,

I'm not sure here. What worries me is the tendency to use words, "like" in this case, to confer a stamp of some kind of virtue, or the converse, based on what is essentially personal opinion - which inevitably comes with its own baggage.

The idea was put into my head during a winery tour in New Zealand. One of the party was rather full of himself (or wines from previous wineries!) and waxed enthusiastic about one rather expensive wine we were given to taste. The young winemaster leading the group put him down neatly by telling him that just because he liked the wine, it did not make it a good wine; swiftly following up with "just because I, with my certificates, like a wine,.....".

It made me realise that I was making just such judgements on the same flimsy evidence.

Patrick King · March 14th, 2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

patrick, undoubtedly there's a whole 'nother thread about the ethics of shooting people

Meryem, you are quite right that I should not have hijacked the thread away from the focus of this forum - "Tools & Techniques for Nature, Outdoors, Wildlife & Underwater Videography."

I'll withdraw from this forum since I don't participate in this particular activity, but will not withdraw my comments even though you misunderstood them. I do not advocate a lack of compassion for animals, only that compassion for animals shouldn't be the 'most important topic' on this site. But ultimately, that is a value judgement each will have to make individually and I should not have railed against what that individual perceived of as 'the most important topic'. Enjoy! And celebrate that we have so little wrong in our worlds that we take the time to debate such things.

Meryem Ersoz · March 14th, 2006, 01:00 PM

hm, once again i seem to have misinterpreted someone's words. i always appreciate it when people clarify their positions if i have mis-read them in any way. the only point i was trying to make was that i think you misunderstood chris' intention by taking his comments out of the context of trying to build a discussion for this forum, but i was probably out of line in speaking for what i perceived as his intention....it just adds more fuel to layer my own mis-interpretations upon others' mis-interpretations! so sorry about that...

but before you depart, patrick, i do have a question.

i looked at "the dancing outlaw" link which you posted, and i'm puzzled, because i read the supplied plot summary and all of the user comments for this video. there's no trace of the quote you cited: "This documentary exploits the happenings of a small town West Va. resident..." in the IMDB listing (or perhaps i'm missing it by not having access to IMDB pro...) and the user comments are unilaterally positive about how this film represents an under-represented member of an Appalachian community. there is one viewer-commentator calling this a "red-sploitation" film, but i interpreted this as a play on "blax-ploitation," which is sort of a self-lampooning term, isn't it? i haven't seen this film though i grew up in an Appalachian community in western Maryland, so i'm now curious to obtain a copy.

what is it about this film that seemed exploitative to you? i'm always interested in hearing viewpoints that run counter to the prevailing viewpoints, and this video seemed unilaterally acclaimed by the viewers who weighed in.....

many of the debates around anthropological film and video are quite parallel to the wildlife stuff we have been discussing, which relates to critical distancing between the shooter and the shooted. so it's not so far afield to hear what you have to say about the ethics of how this video was shot.

it seems like he was ultimately befriended by Roseanne Barr and taken on a trip to Hollywood in the sequel? how very strange.....

Patrick King · March 14th, 2006, 01:31 PM

Meryem,

I'll have to agree that the quote isn't on the page I linked to, and I can't figure out why. I copied the quote off the IMDB page, pasted it into this thread and then returned to that browser window and copied the url from the "Address" window and inserted it in this thread as the link. Now when I select it, it returns me to a page other than the one displayed when I copied the url. Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

I just think filming this guy under the guise of cultural anthropology is the same as news crews always seeking out the one fellow with a dirty tee-shirt and no teeth after a tornado to capture him saying "...it sounded like a freight train...". It is finding the worst case example to perpetuate stereotypes so that the viewers can somehow feel superior. Had they recorded just the musical talent of this fellow as representative of the Appalacian culture that would have been good cultural reporting, but they found a guy so far out there that he certainly embarrassed all his neighbors and they pass it off as representative behavior of that sub-culture. Its as bad as trying to show any other cultural group in a bad light just for the viewing audience's merryment. But again, here you have me responding to this offshoot from your wildlife focus and I owe you and the other members here my apologies.

Meryem Ersoz · March 14th, 2006, 02:16 PM

patrick, i don't have a problem with discussing off-topic, subject matter, especially if there's a loose relationship, as i believe there is in the ethics of shooting people, as you've just described it...after all, we're quite cheerfully enjoying rod and steve's interchange about weight-loss and aging, especially because both those two are capable of waxing so poetically about this n that! so there's no need to apologize. it happens in all the long threads. it is always nice to get back on-topic eventually. thanks for elaborating on "the dancing outlaw"--i'm still very curious to find a copy of the film, mostly the descriptions of jesco remind me of my neighbors. i spent much of my childhood in an area where the phone book had only three last names in it...

Brendan Marnell · March 14th, 2006, 02:29 PM

I believe I understand Meryem's point on this matter but before someone locks the thread I ask her forebearance to put a pet theory in print ... that perhaps the most important contribution to universal education since I left school 50 years ago is Media Studies; of course it's not invariably top quality or even available to all. But it facilitates you and me becoming aware of the myriad forms of deception that attempt to exploit our innocence, ignorance, vulnerability, prejudice, humanity, individuality etc Media Studies opens up to so many of us the possibility of heightened awareness starting with self-awareness. Self-awareness is around a long time I know but in my semi-educated youth it was studiously smothered by layers of hypocrisy, censorship, narrow-mindedness and religious intolerance. Insecurity was a thought-control industry in my younger days ... those who dared question authority or the word of authority were ostracised. There was simply no way out. The vast majority HAD TO BE controlled by the tiny minority and we were. I think that historical fact is being forgotten, which isn't necessarily vital to your generation ... UNLESS we are perhaps taking our good fortune and improved lot somewhat for granted e.g. like overlooking the role of media videography as a part of media studies.

What we are doing on this forum is exercising our freedoms to differ from each other and influence each other. I am among the least aware of media practitioners and an utter dummy with an XM2 but I raise my glass to DVInfo and thank you all for the privilege of your thoughts and opinions censored only by yourselves.

Pass on the news, you media practitioners ... that's the least we can do ... lucky us , bloody lucky. ... "rant over" as Meryem sez

Alan I agree that "like" is simply inadequate in the context I used it. I am trying to think of a more useful approach/contribution to the discussion.

Alan Craven · March 14th, 2006, 02:42 PM

Brendan,

It sounds as though an Irish education was pretty much like a Yorkshire education!

Part of the control I was subject to was a ban on using a lengthy list of words, of which nice, like and get, were just three. Even fifty years down the line I still feel a touch apprehensive when I cannot see a way around uding one of the proscribed words.

Media studies? we were supposed to be learning, not studying, for heavens sake!

That's my rant for the day.

When we are being prescriptive perhaps "approve" is what we often mean when we say "like"?

March 13th, 2006, 06:06 PM	#76
Rodney Compton Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London Posts: 90	the US of A Thanks mate You folks on DVi are re-deeming my view of the States. The whole world is affected by the circus up on Capital Hill, but you guys you are real - I suggest you run for President and give the world a tonic. Rod C p.s I lost a stone last month - do you think they would let us start a thread for old timers

March 14th, 2006, 06:13 AM	#82
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Brendan, If your video is as smooth as your prose, we've got to see some footage, because you could make a pit-bull fight look like a romp through a spring meadow. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

March 14th, 2006, 01:31 PM	#87
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Meryem, I'll have to agree that the quote isn't on the page I linked to, and I can't figure out why. I copied the quote off the IMDB page, pasted it into this thread and then returned to that browser window and copied the url from the "Address" window and inserted it in this thread as the link. Now when I select it, it returns me to a page other than the one displayed when I copied the url. Things that make you go "Hmmmm." I just think filming this guy under the guise of cultural anthropology is the same as news crews always seeking out the one fellow with a dirty tee-shirt and no teeth after a tornado to capture him saying "...it sounded like a freight train...". It is finding the worst case example to perpetuate stereotypes so that the viewers can somehow feel superior. Had they recorded just the musical talent of this fellow as representative of the Appalacian culture that would have been good cultural reporting, but they found a guy so far out there that he certainly embarrassed all his neighbors and they pass it off as representative behavior of that sub-culture. Its as bad as trying to show any other cultural group in a bad light just for the viewing audience's merryment. But again, here you have me responding to this offshoot from your wildlife focus and I owe you and the other members here my apologies. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

March 14th, 2006, 02:29 PM	#89
Brendan Marnell Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 938	media studies I believe I understand Meryem's point on this matter but before someone locks the thread I ask her forebearance to put a pet theory in print ... that perhaps the most important contribution to universal education since I left school 50 years ago is Media Studies; of course it's not invariably top quality or even available to all. But it facilitates you and me becoming aware of the myriad forms of deception that attempt to exploit our innocence, ignorance, vulnerability, prejudice, humanity, individuality etc Media Studies opens up to so many of us the possibility of heightened awareness starting with self-awareness. Self-awareness is around a long time I know but in my semi-educated youth it was studiously smothered by layers of hypocrisy, censorship, narrow-mindedness and religious intolerance. Insecurity was a thought-control industry in my younger days ... those who dared question authority or the word of authority were ostracised. There was simply no way out. The vast majority HAD TO BE controlled by the tiny minority and we were. I think that historical fact is being forgotten, which isn't necessarily vital to your generation ... UNLESS we are perhaps taking our good fortune and improved lot somewhat for granted e.g. like overlooking the role of media videography as a part of media studies. What we are doing on this forum is exercising our freedoms to differ from each other and influence each other. I am among the least aware of media practitioners and an utter dummy with an XM2 but I raise my glass to DVInfo and thank you all for the privilege of your thoughts and opinions censored only by yourselves. Pass on the news, you media practitioners ... that's the least we can do ... lucky us , bloody lucky. ... "rant over" as Meryem sez Alan I agree that "like" is simply inadequate in the context I used it. I am trying to think of a more useful approach/contribution to the discussion.

March 14th, 2006, 05:18 AM	#80
Alan Craven Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: York, England Posts: 518	Brendan, Surely, whether one individual "likes" or "does not like" is hardly an acceptable measure of quality, ethics, etc.

March 14th, 2006, 08:25 AM	#83
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	patrick, undoubtedly there's a whole 'nother thread about the ethics of shooting people. or maybe there's not, because that's an always already ongoing discussion throughout the rest of dvinfo.net, inherent to many existing discussions. the wildlife forum is a relatively new addition and gives us a context to engage in more focused discussions about issues in shooting nature, wildlife, the outdoors. the wildlife forum was created because a bunch of people asked for it, wanted to talk about practices specific to shooting wildlife and nature. i started this thread because i was observing some wildlife shooting practices in current, popular films/videos were unsettling to me and thought this would be the logical place to find an interesting discussion about them, from other practitioners. chris can obviously speak for himself, but i think his comment was an attempt to validate a discussion which was struggling to get off the ground. and the moment chris stamped it with his approval, the conversation took off. but i wouldn't take his comment too far out of context. having said that, i am always disturbed by comments such as "animals come in a distant second to people." compassion is one of the highest expressions of our humanity, lack of compassion one of the lowest. indifference to the diverse species of this planet is only a marker pointing to the degradation of our own.

March 14th, 2006, 10:27 AM	#84
Alan Craven Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: York, England Posts: 518	Brendan, I'm not sure here. What worries me is the tendency to use words, "like" in this case, to confer a stamp of some kind of virtue, or the converse, based on what is essentially personal opinion - which inevitably comes with its own baggage. The idea was put into my head during a winery tour in New Zealand. One of the party was rather full of himself (or wines from previous wineries!) and waxed enthusiastic about one rather expensive wine we were given to taste. The young winemaster leading the group put him down neatly by telling him that just because he liked the wine, it did not make it a good wine; swiftly following up with "just because I, with my certificates, like a wine,.....". It made me realise that I was making just such judgements on the same flimsy evidence.

March 14th, 2006, 01:00 PM	#86
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	hm, once again i seem to have misinterpreted someone's words. i always appreciate it when people clarify their positions if i have mis-read them in any way. the only point i was trying to make was that i think you misunderstood chris' intention by taking his comments out of the context of trying to build a discussion for this forum, but i was probably out of line in speaking for what i perceived as his intention....it just adds more fuel to layer my own mis-interpretations upon others' mis-interpretations! so sorry about that... but before you depart, patrick, i do have a question. i looked at "the dancing outlaw" link which you posted, and i'm puzzled, because i read the supplied plot summary and all of the user comments for this video. there's no trace of the quote you cited: "This documentary exploits the happenings of a small town West Va. resident..." in the IMDB listing (or perhaps i'm missing it by not having access to IMDB pro...) and the user comments are unilaterally positive about how this film represents an under-represented member of an Appalachian community. there is one viewer-commentator calling this a "red-sploitation" film, but i interpreted this as a play on "blax-ploitation," which is sort of a self-lampooning term, isn't it? i haven't seen this film though i grew up in an Appalachian community in western Maryland, so i'm now curious to obtain a copy. what is it about this film that seemed exploitative to you? i'm always interested in hearing viewpoints that run counter to the prevailing viewpoints, and this video seemed unilaterally acclaimed by the viewers who weighed in..... many of the debates around anthropological film and video are quite parallel to the wildlife stuff we have been discussing, which relates to critical distancing between the shooter and the shooted. so it's not so far afield to hear what you have to say about the ethics of how this video was shot. it seems like he was ultimately befriended by Roseanne Barr and taken on a trip to Hollywood in the sequel? how very strange.....

March 14th, 2006, 02:16 PM	#88
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	patrick, i don't have a problem with discussing off-topic, subject matter, especially if there's a loose relationship, as i believe there is in the ethics of shooting people, as you've just described it...after all, we're quite cheerfully enjoying rod and steve's interchange about weight-loss and aging, especially because both those two are capable of waxing so poetically about this n that! so there's no need to apologize. it happens in all the long threads. it is always nice to get back on-topic eventually. thanks for elaborating on "the dancing outlaw"--i'm still very curious to find a copy of the film, mostly the descriptions of jesco remind me of my neighbors. i spent much of my childhood in an area where the phone book had only three last names in it...

March 14th, 2006, 02:42 PM	#90
Alan Craven Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: York, England Posts: 518	Brendan, It sounds as though an Irish education was pretty much like a Yorkshire education! Part of the control I was subject to was a ban on using a lengthy list of words, of which nice, like and get, were just three. Even fifty years down the line I still feel a touch apprehensive when I cannot see a way around uding one of the proscribed words. Media studies? we were supposed to be learning, not studying, for heavens sake! That's my rant for the day. When we are being prescriptive perhaps "approve" is what we often mean when we say "like"?