What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?

Paul R Johnson · August 13th, 2019, 01:09 AM

The first thing you MUST learn is that wildlife video, and long lenses means there will be NO sound. A feeding deer nat 300m distance, filling the frame makes zero sound, so you need to create it. People try crazy long shotgun mics, parabolic and pre-planted zooms in popular repeated feeding spots, but the sound you hear on TV and movies is by and large created in a Foley like process, and you have no way enough time to do it - so think sound effects sources. Wild tracks, generic outside noises, etc - but if you are shooting a deer munching grass, that CD with the sound of cows munching grass will convince everyone, apart from the experts who identify the sound as NOT being a particular breed of deer!

on your 15 minute thing. What happens when the really good stuff starts at 14:30 on the clock? Proper gear for proper results, and DSLRs, especially those with limits may not be a sensible choice.

Maybe a conventional video camera, with long lenses and extenders could be better? Remember that clients would often judge success by what is in the frame, not how many pixels are in use!

You seem to get clients who pay little, and expect an awful lot. Do they do this with everyone, or are you becoming known as Ryan - that fella who always says yes and we get away with paying peanuts and can boss him around!

It does seem they demand professional results but won't even cover the costs of doing it properly.

Josh Bass · August 13th, 2019, 02:12 AM

Said it was volunteer earlier which I assume means its a freebie.

David Knaggs · August 13th, 2019, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

* -- one notable exception is the Canon EF-S 18-135mm IS nano USM, which is the only lens that will interface with the Canon power zoom adapter.

Thanks for pointing out that lens, Chris. I spent last night searching online for EF or EF-S lenses which might be a bit more suited to video (with the EF mount on the BMPCC 6K) and I missed this one! This lens is now my leading contender.

Jim Michael · August 13th, 2019, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay thanks. Well even with the 1.6 crop, I still showed them the tests, and they said it wasn't close enough to the animals though.

Focal length needed depends on the size of the subject, distance, and resulting image size. Nothing substitutes for getting close. I would ask, though, with all the available stock footage would it make more sense to use stock in your corporate production?

Ryan Elder · August 13th, 2019, 05:09 AM

Okay thanks. I thought I would have to create the sound in post, and I'm okay with that.

As for using stock footage, they want me to shoot a certain forest area, and they might be able to tell if it doesn't match in the stock footage. Plus they are going to go hiking in the video, some people, which I will need to match the area with in the shots of animals, so I might need to shoot it all, so it matches, but I can try it and see.

One filmmaker I talked to, said since it's a wildlife video, that I should shoot it in 30 or 60fps, instead of 24, since 30-60 is the standard for wildlife videos, he said, but is that a big deal though, compared to 24?

Brian Drysdale · August 13th, 2019, 05:21 AM

There is no reason to shoot at 24 fps second unless you're shooting a TV drama for international distribution or a theatrical release. For a video intended for other purposes, the standard broadcast frame rates should apply.

24 fps is the exception, not the rule, you may get artifacts on the pans etc when it's being shown at a standard North American broadcast frame rate. Also, it you're doing shots to go into another video, chances are it won't be filmed at 24 fps. So, it may cause complications in post because their project now has a mixed frame rate.

Ryan Elder · August 13th, 2019, 05:26 AM

Oh okay, well the plan was likely to have it be all my footage. However, my camera only shoots 30 and 24, not 60, unless you want to go to SD format. What is the standard broadcast 30 or 60?

So I could do 30, just not use to it. Is there a problem with artifacts in panning shots? I see them in movies all the time at 24, and no one seems to notice, unless I'm wrong?

Brian Drysdale · August 13th, 2019, 05:34 AM

If you see the artifacts on North American television they are wrong, you don't get them on European TV, which uses 25fps.

Use the 30 fps setting, it's the standard for broadcast HD..

Ryan Elder · August 13th, 2019, 05:36 AM

Oh okay, what do you mean by artifacts exactly? It's just in the past if I used 30, others said it didn't look as cinematic and looked like a more made for TV look though, and that I should go for 24, but were they wrong in saying that?

Brian Drysdale · August 13th, 2019, 05:55 AM

They probably associate the 3:2 pull down with being cinematic, because every feature film is shot at 24 fps and uses it when being shown on North American TV. If you watch a film being projected in a cinema , you don't have that artifact. To European eyes it's annoying, although it's not as bad these days, but it's still there if you watch a US DVD. In Europe yon don't have the need for a 3:2 pull down because it uses 25 fps.

Since you're doing a standard video, I would use 30 fps.

Chris Hurd · August 13th, 2019, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

Thanks for pointing out that lens, Chris. I spent last night searching online for EF or EF-S lenses which might be a bit more suited to video (with the EF mount on the BMPCC 6K) and I missed this one! This lens is now my leading contender.

My pleasure, David. You will not be disappointed with the EF-S 18-135 IS nano + Power Zoom Adapter.

My fear is that Canon just did a one-off with the PZA interface, and we may never see it again on any other lens. If you ask me, they should put it on everything!

If you choose to go that route, EF-S 18-135 nano + PZA, then there is another lens that will make an ideal companion to it, and that is the EF-S 10-18mm IS.

It is a steal for $300 and it's one of the best-kept secrets in the Canon line. If the field of view was any wider, it could see in back of you. There's no noticeable barrel distortion at all; it's surprisingly rectilinear. STM for silent focus during video. And having IS on an ultra-wide is like a dream come true. The only thing that would make it better would be to add that PZA interface. The only bad thing about it is that it's a daylight lens; f/4.5 to 5.6 -- but did I mention it's only $300?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1051476-USA/canon_9519b002_ef_s_10_18mm_f_4_5_5_6_is.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

All of the booth interviews we've shot at NAB over the last couple of years have been done with an EOS 70D plus the EF-S 10-18mm. See https://www.dvinfo.net/video-report and all video clips there except the very first were shot with that lens.

There's also my other favorite, the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, lots written about that one already though.

I'll be very interested to find out how that camera does for you.

David Knaggs · August 13th, 2019, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

My pleasure, David. You will not be disappointed with the EF-S 18-135 IS nano + Power Zoom Adapter.

I'm very glad that you said that, Chris, because I bought the lens from B&H 20 minutes after I posted that! I bought it second-hand (B&H rated it as 9.0 condition) and the saving will allow me to buy the PZA . Although I want to check out the PZA at a local dealer first, because I saw a review on B&H where the guy complained that it kept falling off and he was now on his 3rd PZA. So I'm curious as to how to keep it stable and attached.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

... there is another lens that will make an ideal companion to it, and that is the EF-S 10-18mm IS.
It is a steal for $300 and it's one of the best-kept secrets in the Canon line. If the field of view was any wider, it could see in back of you. There's no noticeable barrel distortion at all; it's surprisingly rectilinear.

That looked fantastic! I didn't notice any distortion. I think the 10-18 will be perfect for this first side project in November. It's mostly set in a restaurant kitchen and I suspect that there might be a few occasions where I'll be filming the actors at very close quarters. Although I won't buy that lens just yet, because I have to pick up a Tascam DR-70D tomorrow (it's on special) to use with the BMPCC 6K. It records 4 audio tracks and there'll be 4 actors, so it'll be perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

There's also my other favorite, the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS

Yes, a faster lens is a good idea! Thanks very much for all of your research, Chris. It's really saved me a lot of time that I can now spend learning how to use Resolve (which I downloaded tonight).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I'll be very interested to find out how that camera does for you.

Yes, I think I'd better stop hijacking Ryan's thread and put any further traffic in the BM forum.

Thanks, again!

Seth Bloombaum · August 13th, 2019, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

...I saw a review on B&H where the guy complained that it kept falling off and he was now on his 3rd PZA. So I'm curious as to how to keep it stable and attached.

The PZA is a little tricky to attach the first few times, but based on my experience he was doing it wrong. Mine has never come close to falling off except maybe the 2nd time I used it, when I hadn't really got it attached properly.

I own these overlapping focal length lenses:
Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 AF
Canon 10-18mm variable AF/IS
Canon 18-135mm variable AF/IS with Power Zoom Adapter
Canon 17-55mm f2.8 AF/IS

These lenses duplicate each other in many ways. But I have 4 lenses where I should have two, because I just can't lose the f2.8 constant aperture pair when I want better low light or shallower DoF.

Many aren't aware of the Tokina 11-16. It's solid, an early performer for DSLR video that is still making great images on EF mount.

Sorry to continue the hijack - I'm not a reader of the BM forum! But the new BMPCC 6k EF looks pretty good ;-)

Paul R Johnson · August 13th, 2019, 11:44 AM

Ryan - have you seen the BBC's Blue Planet? 16:9 and amazingly cinematic, in the real vista sense. You're still thinking that 16:9 is NOT cinematic, no matter what the frame has in it, and that 24fps is somehow magical. It's just historical. UK TV has been 25fps for a very long time, and 39.97/30 for the US markets. We could always tell 525 from 625, but I don't think many people can spot 25-30 differences less they really know what they're looking at.

For wildlife - the real issues are light - so with long lenses, squeezing as much light as you can will probably impact on shutter speeds. Wildlife is also one of the few subjects that you can mess with shutter speeds - making a bird's takeoff more slow than real life, or making a gentle run a bit more urgent. As sound is not really sync, you can take liberties. Would motion blur help or hinder? Faster shutter speeds might not be required.

Ryan Elder · August 13th, 2019, 02:40 PM

Oh ok i considered faster shutter speed or i could just do a 1/60 shutter speed and use nd filters as well.

What's a 3:2 pull down exactly? I dont mind recording the sound separately but its hard to get the mic close cause animals are afraid to come close to me. Unless i plant the mic and then walk away, but then i cannot aim the mic properly at them to get sharper sound.

August 13th, 2019, 01:09 AM	#31
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? The first thing you MUST learn is that wildlife video, and long lenses means there will be NO sound. A feeding deer nat 300m distance, filling the frame makes zero sound, so you need to create it. People try crazy long shotgun mics, parabolic and pre-planted zooms in popular repeated feeding spots, but the sound you hear on TV and movies is by and large created in a Foley like process, and you have no way enough time to do it - so think sound effects sources. Wild tracks, generic outside noises, etc - but if you are shooting a deer munching grass, that CD with the sound of cows munching grass will convince everyone, apart from the experts who identify the sound as NOT being a particular breed of deer! on your 15 minute thing. What happens when the really good stuff starts at 14:30 on the clock? Proper gear for proper results, and DSLRs, especially those with limits may not be a sensible choice. Maybe a conventional video camera, with long lenses and extenders could be better? Remember that clients would often judge success by what is in the frame, not how many pixels are in use! You seem to get clients who pay little, and expect an awful lot. Do they do this with everyone, or are you becoming known as Ryan - that fella who always says yes and we get away with paying peanuts and can boss him around! It does seem they demand professional results but won't even cover the costs of doing it properly.

August 13th, 2019, 02:12 AM	#32
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? Said it was volunteer earlier which I assume means its a freebie. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 13th, 2019, 05:09 AM	#35
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? Okay thanks. I thought I would have to create the sound in post, and I'm okay with that. As for using stock footage, they want me to shoot a certain forest area, and they might be able to tell if it doesn't match in the stock footage. Plus they are going to go hiking in the video, some people, which I will need to match the area with in the shots of animals, so I might need to shoot it all, so it matches, but I can try it and see. One filmmaker I talked to, said since it's a wildlife video, that I should shoot it in 30 or 60fps, instead of 24, since 30-60 is the standard for wildlife videos, he said, but is that a big deal though, compared to 24?

August 13th, 2019, 05:21 AM	#36
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? There is no reason to shoot at 24 fps second unless you're shooting a TV drama for international distribution or a theatrical release. For a video intended for other purposes, the standard broadcast frame rates should apply. 24 fps is the exception, not the rule, you may get artifacts on the pans etc when it's being shown at a standard North American broadcast frame rate. Also, it you're doing shots to go into another video, chances are it won't be filmed at 24 fps. So, it may cause complications in post because their project now has a mixed frame rate.

August 13th, 2019, 05:26 AM	#37
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? Oh okay, well the plan was likely to have it be all my footage. However, my camera only shoots 30 and 24, not 60, unless you want to go to SD format. What is the standard broadcast 30 or 60? So I could do 30, just not use to it. Is there a problem with artifacts in panning shots? I see them in movies all the time at 24, and no one seems to notice, unless I'm wrong?

August 13th, 2019, 05:34 AM	#38
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? If you see the artifacts on North American television they are wrong, you don't get them on European TV, which uses 25fps. Use the 30 fps setting, it's the standard for broadcast HD..

August 13th, 2019, 05:36 AM	#39
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? Oh okay, what do you mean by artifacts exactly? It's just in the past if I used 30, others said it didn't look as cinematic and looked like a more made for TV look though, and that I should go for 24, but were they wrong in saying that?

August 13th, 2019, 05:55 AM	#40
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? They probably associate the 3:2 pull down with being cinematic, because every feature film is shot at 24 fps and uses it when being shown on North American TV. If you watch a film being projected in a cinema , you don't have that artifact. To European eyes it's annoying, although it's not as bad these days, but it's still there if you watch a US DVD. In Europe yon don't have the need for a 3:2 pull down because it uses 25 fps. Since you're doing a standard video, I would use 30 fps.

August 13th, 2019, 11:44 AM	#44
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? Ryan - have you seen the BBC's Blue Planet? 16:9 and amazingly cinematic, in the real vista sense. You're still thinking that 16:9 is NOT cinematic, no matter what the frame has in it, and that 24fps is somehow magical. It's just historical. UK TV has been 25fps for a very long time, and 39.97/30 for the US markets. We could always tell 525 from 625, but I don't think many people can spot 25-30 differences less they really know what they're looking at. For wildlife - the real issues are light - so with long lenses, squeezing as much light as you can will probably impact on shutter speeds. Wildlife is also one of the few subjects that you can mess with shutter speeds - making a bird's takeoff more slow than real life, or making a gentle run a bit more urgent. As sound is not really sync, you can take liberties. Would motion blur help or hinder? Faster shutter speeds might not be required.

August 13th, 2019, 02:40 PM	#45
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up? Oh ok i considered faster shutter speed or i could just do a 1/60 shutter speed and use nd filters as well. What's a 3:2 pull down exactly? I dont mind recording the sound separately but its hard to get the mic close cause animals are afraid to come close to me. Unless i plant the mic and then walk away, but then i cannot aim the mic properly at them to get sharper sound.