503HDV v/s 519

[Ashok Mansur]

You had been to Dharwad. give me details.
Do you think single stage tube section is better than double stage tube section, for stability. I thought for portability, two stage are lighter, more sturdier. For my field work like hiking long distance with all the gear is cumber some. so it's better with two stage.
One more thing I don't use the super tele always, so if I go for 526 the weight ratio is 8kg-16kg. XL2 system weighs 4.5kg then there will be problem. As the cam become too light for the head. the advantge with 519 is one can change the springs for different loads. But the problem lye's with 75mm base. And regarding 516 it also handles 10kg as 519.
So please give other options.
Ashok

[Chris Soucy]

Lovely country, wonderfull people. Spent, oh, I guess, 2 years in India all told, love it. Been pretty well all around it and quite a bit through the centre, but, hey, it's a big place and can't say I've been "everywhere" (I cheated, checked on the official "Karnatika" web site this arvo, knew what they were, just couldn't remember the name!). If I had my way I'd live there (India) but hey, you can't always have your way.

Back to business:

I see your dilemma. My suggestion is very heavy, not at all practical for portability and if you're changeing camera weights, no good whatsoever. Hmm, bit of a bugger really.

I've got to admit (and this takes some doing, believe me!) I am temporarily stumped. To give you the versatilty of balance afforded by the 519 but with a 100 mm base/ tripod without it getting so heavy you can't even lift it, let alone move it, is , to put it mildly, a big ask.

I can remenmber seeing one of your much earlier posts when you were talking about these huge lenses on your camera and thinking "What in h**l are you going to put that on and keep it still?". Gave it a great deal of thought and came up with "Concrete block buried in the ground" (I jest not).

A story:

Not long after I bought my XL1s in London, I rang Canon UK and got to speak with one of their more knowledgeable support guys. The question was "Could I put one of these super still zooms on here - like a 100 - 300, say?"

His response was very informative.

Seems the London Metropolitan Police had asked that very same question for their XL1s surveilance cameras. They subsequently spent a kings ransom on long, still camera zooms and adapters to fit the XL1s mounts. Within months the lot was back on the second hand market for sale.

Seems that despite all the warnings from Canon, they had failed to take into account that even under perfect conditions, getting useable video with such a system required the camera to be, practically, bolted to a block of concrete. Under the conditions they were using them (over an arm, out of a car window etc) there was no chance in he*l that anything was going to be useable.

I suppose where that leaves US is back where we started. (I'm really starting to get twitchy now - I HATE IT when I can't solve a problem!).

Hey Ashok, why don't we start from scratch - you list everything you have/ want to mount on the head/ tripod (and I mean everything), give us all a budget (hey, for $5 million US I can get my friend in NASA to tool you up with anything you want!), and see if we can take a run at this another way.

If you want to discuss anything "India" related give me a hoy on my e -mail, it's in the header. I'd like to talk to a current resident as I'm working on my next trip back.

Cheers,


Chris

[Ashok Mansur]

top of the world. You are absolutely correct about my country. We have Beaches,Evergreen forest, Deccan plateau, Desert, Great Himalayas and not the last but least Chirapunji Highest raining place in the world.
I have XL2 kit, 70~200mm f2.8 IS, shortly getting either 500/600mm f4 & lens+cam support(identical to Ronsrail). Budget Rs 60K ($1400)

( My wish list Canon 200~400 f4 like Nikon)
Ashok

[Chris Soucy]

Well, I've been through the Manfrotto catalogue with a fine toothed comb and think it's going to have to be the 519 (assuming we need to stick with Manfrotto for practical purchasing purposes).

It is indeed the only one with the counterbalance range you require, tho' be aware that to cover it's full range requires changeing between the two supplied springs - not something you'd want to lose one of.

The 75mm ball isn't necessarily a deal breaker as it's easy enough to use a 100 mm to 75 mm step down plate (available from Manfrotto, but mine doesn't seem to fit very well in the 528XB, luckily I had another from B. Hague in the UK which works just fine).

That just leaves us with the tripod. A thorough scrute of all the possibilities produced a short list of just 2 - the forementioned 528XB (rated to 50 Kg but weighs in @ 7.4 Kg) or the 350MVB (rated to 20 Kg and a more manageable 4.9 Kg - tho' that is without the 350SPBR spreader which it really needs for stability).

**Before anyone decides to leap on me from a great height about that 50Kg rating - it's only rated to 30 Kg in the States [I know] but everywhere else on the planet it's 50Kg. I can guess, but won't tell, why that would be**

As I said the other day, I really do think your set up would benefit from the 100 mm system, so, I suppose if either combination can be got inside your budget, that's what I'd go for.

I don't remember seeing what tripod/ head system you're using currently, did I miss it somewhere?

Cheers,


Chris

[Ashok Mansur]

Well right now I have 701RC2 055CB 229 & 475 all are Manfrotto. can you just tell me how the 75mm & 100mm head bowl different in performance. One more thing can you just elaborate more on 516 in comparision with 519.
Ashok

[Chris Soucy]

I can now see why you're having trouble keeping things still - not the most rigid of set ups.

The major difference between the 75 mm and 100mm bowls (this needs to be kept in context, it's possible to make a bad 100 mm and a good 75, it all depends on the materials used, design and construction -- but lets assume same materials, design etc etc) is sheer mass. The 100 mm has about 30% more material in it, that extra 25mm across gives immensly greater strength to resist flexing, and that really solid 100 mm ball locked into the bowl makes the entire assembly that much more rigid.

Additionally, as any lateral force is working on a much greater cross sectional area, it is more resistant to flexing from that cause.

Of course, if the leg to bowl fixings are not up to the job, that extra rigidity in the bowl is somewhat nullified, but again, a 100 mm design will be more rigid than an eqivalent 75 mm. In addition, just to complicate things, the rigidity of the legs needs to be taken into consideration, the thinner - less rigid, longer - less rigid etc etc. In short, bigger is better, but longer isn't. Unfortunately, it's also heavier.

Ok, on to the 516 versus 519.

The 516 is the older design by far - I seem to remember it was about when I bought my 503 and that was waaaay back. It will fit on a 100 mm half ball (good) but is only countersprung for 7.5 Kg @125 mm COG (bad). This means that, unless you make other arrangements somehow, your XL2 with the short lens is going to want to keep returning to horizontal as soon as you let go the pan handle. The only way I can think to fix this is to get a "weight plate" made from steel that sits between the camera and the tripod release plate. Problem with that is you're carrying around even more useless weight if you're using the long lens/ rail system as well. But it could be done.

The 519 seems to be the pattern, in many respects, for the new 501/ 503 HDV series. It is heavier than the 516 (by .9 KG) but I suspect a good portion of that is the 75 mm half ball stuck to the bottom. That 75 mm ball is also a downside (see above) but hey, you can't have everything. Where it romps home is that continuously variable counter balance set up.

What I don't know, and can't tell, is just how either of them handle in practice. As I've only ever used the 503 (no, it [503] definately won't do what you want) I've nothing to go by. I can say my new Vinten Vision 3 makes the 503 look like a toy - but that is comparing apples with walnuts and not terribly usefull.

As I said yesterday, if Manfrotto it has to be due to the availability, then (all things being equal) the 519 is the way to go, with either of the 'pods I mentioned. If another make comes into the frame then you could think again, tho' that continuously variable counterbalance from 1.5 - 9Kg of the 519 is going to be a hard act to beat, at any price.


Cheers,


Chris

[Chris Soucy]

have just this afternoon had a chance to test out the new Vinten Vision 3 head on the new Manfrotto 528XB tripod - man oh man, what a combination!

But first, back to my original setup:

Manfrotto 520 tripod (the forerunner of the current 525 legs), 75mm half ball with Manfrotto 503 head. Parked on top of that - my XH - A1 with ME67 shotgun in a Rycote CCA mic holder plus a Sennheiser G2 wireless pack on the hot shoe.

Mount up camera, zoom it out to 20X and focus on something about 60 metres away. Press on any part of the head, pan handle or leg sides and hey presto, picture is all over the place like a dogs dinner.

OK, so same sticks, new Vinten head and the same camera. Same test. Same results.

This time, Manfrotto 528XB legs, 100 mm - 75 mm reducer, Vinten head, same camera. Same test - nothing! Lean against tripod - nothing! Put both hands on top of camera and push down - nothing! Lock both pan and tilt on the head, push down on pan handle - nothing. Push handle both left and right - minute movement.

Switch the head for the 503 and guess what? Yep, we're back to the dogs dinner again.

This tripod is awesome! It is also a mobile hernia inducer. Matched to the Vinten head it is absolutely stunning. If you can figure out a way to transport it, I can without hesitation recommend this tripod for your application.

On the subject of transport, have you given any thought to using something like a two wheeled golf trolley type arrangement, no use whatsoever if your O/B shoots involve actual climbing but should be ok for reasonably flatish terrain. Just a thought.

Cheers,


Chris

[Ashok Mansur]

You are really genius, now you put me in the whirlpool. If Vinten is really good I'll check their web site & ask them. Whether they have distributor in my country.
I'm a farmer by proffession; photo is my hobby say serious one. Whatever I invest is for one time, no more recurring expenses. once brought finished, I should go for other accessories, Not to the same part of different brand. So prefer to research for better one with available resource. As you said if Vinten is ok I will look into that.
How about 515 with 519 with reducing adapter, Sachtler Sachtler 0431 - System DV 4 II / 2 Tripod & Vinten V3-AP2 VISION 3 System.
Most of the time in the jungle I have to move on the foot.
Ashok

[Chris Soucy]

OK, well, er, I'm a bit stunned, but let's take this one step at a time....


1. There is no doubt that the Vinten Vision 3 is a great head. Is it better than the far more easily proccured (in India) Manfrotto 519?

Can't say.

2. Would I suggest you ramp up to a totally Vinten solution to your problem?

Nope, can't, won't.

3. Should you buy ex - India and import anything?

Whoa, that's going into "the Twilight Zone" with what I know about India. Maybe, maybe not, but recommendations from me on the subject you will not get.

Ashok, I have stuck with one scenario for just about anything I have ever bought: - Buy the best you can afford, even better if possible, and it will serve you well untill you decide it doesn't (technological advances notwithstanding). Rubbish is rubbish when you buy it and stays rubbish till it goes on the tip, and it's still rubbish!

However-

What I was NOT trying to do with my comments re - Vinten was bootstrap you (or anyone else) into an ever escalating "arms race" up the technology food chain to the clear exclusion of common sense.

I am fully aware that the investment you are planning is HUGE, and you want to get it right. My concern is that you will, by "leap - frogging" into a totally Vinten solution, on my say so on the V3, go past that "whoa" point in the investment stakes.

If you say that's NOT the case, fine, we'll go through it, one step at a time. If, on reflection, you think that my comments may have swayed you past that "whoa" point, cool, lets go back to what's easily available at home without the risks inherant in importing stuff yourself.

Give it some thought and get back to me.


Cheers,


Chris


PS. That V3 head is wicked though! Aren't I terrible?

[Ashok Mansur]

Well Chris, considering your point I would like to draw your attention on 519. Both 519 & vision 3 have inter changeable counter balance springs, 519 has two, Where as vision3 has ten. Is that one of the reason vision is better. if there are more can you elaborate on them, It will be a good info for pupil like me.
Ashok

[Chris Soucy]

But first, if there's ANYONE out there with a Manfrotto 519, feel free to stand up to the plate - we need some serious help here.

Going back over this thread, with the exception of some usefull I/P from Greg, we seem to be having our own private session!

Ok, the M519 - Vs - V3 debate continues.

I'm going to change tack. I believe we are still waiting on info regarding what I/P duties/ taxes are payable if you import stuff yourself, without which we can't really compare like for like on the price front, the Manfrotto being available retail taxes and duty paid already.

I bring this up as we need to go back to your budget. As I see it, the more you spend on the head, the less you can spend on the sticks. There's no point tilting the balance too far, as the improvements in the head will end up being negated by deficiancies below.

Now, as I understand it, the 519 is considerably cheaper than the V3 even before tax/ duty/ shipping. So lets go back to the 519 for a moment.

We can't do a comparison directly against the V3 as we have no direct 519 evidence to go on. There is a heap of implied evidence however in so far as it is pretty generally accepted (by me at least) that in the 501/ 503 bracket the Manfrotto stuff punches way above it's price point. The Big "Q" is, does that hold, way up there for the 519? I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt and say, the likelyhood is on balance, in the 519's favour.

In which case you're getting more head for your money, when compared to the V3. Is it good enough to do the job? Well, it's a 75mm bowl, it's a modern design, it's slightly heavier than the V3 - and it has what could be the killer punch, that "continuously variable counterbalance".

On to the point you raised Ashock. Yep, the 519 uses 2 springs, the V3 uses 10. Let's assume that you will only be using two camera configurations, light and heavy. With each head you end up changeing - 2 springs. The 519 MAY be more versatile as you can "fine tune" the balance anywhere within the spring rating, the V3 is fixed and may be at one extreme of the chosen spring. Is this an issue? Don't know - but I'm wary of your camera/ rail/ huge lens set up - I don't know how, in practice, it's going to affect getting the balance right.

I'm going to make a leap of faith here and say, in the absence of any hard evidence about the handling characteristics of the 519, that there is no way Manfrotto would make a complete dog at this price point and therefore it will do the job being asked of it and do it cheaper than the V3, and maybe, be easier to balance.

(Do I believe it's the better head? It matters not, I'd like a top of the range, $7,000 head on a $7,000 set of sticks - but it ain't gonna happen, and what I have does the job)

If anyone wishes to disagree, chime in - PLEASE!

OK, so assume we have agreed on the 519. How much is left in the kitty? Remember, we now have 9 kilos of camera, rails and lens sitting on nearly 3 kilos of head. That's getting up there for a lot of the lower end units (the 525's etc). I reckon you need something rated for at least 20 kilos (44 pounds), all other things being equal. The only units that are in the ball park (in the Manfrotto stand, that is) that would appear to be affordable are the 350 & 351 (I've discounted the 528 as utterly impracticle).

Interestingly, both are rated to 20 kilos BUT remember what I said (much) ealier about the relative merits of 75 mm & 100 mm builds - the 75 mm 351 weighs in @ 3.6 kilos, the 100 mm 350 @ 4.9 kilos - same height, construction and all. My only reservation is actually getting your hands on one, my flyer elsewhere on DVinfo has not returned ONE hit for a 350, B&H don't stock it, nor, it seems, does anyone else in the States. Whether it is available in India perhaps you should enquire.

Got more money to spend? The alternatives are endless.

I think that's probably quite enough for one post.

Let me know what you think.


Cheers,


Chris

[Chris Soucy]

Found this just down the page from this thread. If ever there was a tripod almost purpose built with your application in mind Ashock, I think this could be it. If this thing isn't as rigid as required I'm tempted to say "I'll eat my shorts" (but won't).

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=95474

The B&H reference is the second in the post, give it a scrute.

Cheers,


Chris

[Ashok Mansur]

Cartoni's are really heavy weighter, I just went through their site, Amazing T621 with self-wt of 2.1kg can sustain load of 40kg. Where as Manfrotto's 351 self-wt 3.6kg can take load of 20kg. Even Flagship of Manfrotto ART doesn't match them. Yet they are quite reasonable in B&H, Will check dealer in India.
Chris This is really tapping a Hornet nest.
Ashok

[Chris Soucy]

Was wondering how your investigations were progressing? Do keep me posted.

CS

[Ashok Mansur]

I written to Cartoni & Indian dealer, but the Indian mail was bounced back as my message couln't be delivered. I am yet to receive response from Cartoni's.
Ashok