Twist at tripod head

[Paul R Johnson]

I've started to mount a small Panasonic with wide angle lens onto the top of my usual camera, and it's amazing how many times the pictures from this get used. Obviously you'd have to make up a frame of some kind to get yours on top of each other, but it should be possible, and with the wide angle on the top and the main camera at the bottom, stability should be ok.

[James Kuhn]

Richard...I'm getting into this conversation late, but has anyone suggested looking at the 'Astronomy' community? They do a lot of 'dual' instrument viewing, and I've seen some rigs with 'huge' payloads on them. A Co. that comes to mind is 'Losmandy'. Scott Losmandy is a Machinist 'extraordinaire', if you needed something 'unusual' I'm sure he could help.

JMHO, YMMV.

J.

[Chris Soucy]

Well, hello Mike, bit late to the party, what you been up to and what do you think of it so far?


CS

[Chris Soucy]

Richard..............

A question or three for you.

The original photo you linked to showed that Manfrotto bar mounted on what appears to be a standard stills tripod, is that correct?

Irrespective of the answer to the previous question, what mechanism was/ is in place to prevent the bar from simply unwinding off the mounting stud if subjected to the right force in the right direction?

Is that mechanism, if it exists, going to translate to the use of a Manfrotto 520/ 500 ball, each with their 3 head lock screws?

If you don't know already, both the 500 & 520 have three screws embedded in the flat bed of the top, which are designed to impinge on the underside of a flat bottomed head to prevent it being unwound from the 3/8" mounting bolt once tightened.

Is it possible to post some pics of the underside of the bar mount block and provide dimensions, so I can attempt to work out if the screws on either adapter, will, if fact, lock that bar or not?

If I can establish that, I'll feel a lot happier about it's use, or at least be able to start thinking about a workround.

If anyone actually knows the answer to the question just posed, please pipe up and save everyone a lot of buggering about.

Richard, it's not necessary to link to outside sites for pics - simply scroll down below your "Reply to Thread" box and click on "Manage Attachments" (do make the resultant box full screen, as relevant controls aren't visible otherwise) and simply point to the relevant files you wish to upload, hit the "er, what's it called?" button on the far right to "DO" the upload and it's done.

I do hope this has made some semblance of sense.


CS

[Richard Davidson]

Actually I came up with what I feel will be a much better mount using the VB system. I hope I can describe it so it will make sense.

A single plate going under the head and extending to both sides of the head. It will be milled so the head will fit down into the plate slightly and have L shaped brackets on either side that will secure the bracket to the shoulders of the VB head. The bracket will have a hole in the center that the VB ball will fit through so it will still be mounted to the tripod in its normal way. The wide shot camera will sit to the left of the head and if I need to counter balance it I will be able to do that on the right side. I can mount a lightweight head so I can tilt the wide shot camera to frame the field. Don't ask me to draw it but I can see it in my mind so I am pretty sure I can make it.

Since I have not been able to find a shot of the underside of the VB head I am not sure of the clearance I will need so the head will still be able to pan. This mount would have several advantages but mainly being much lighter as I can mill it out of aluminum and it would still be stiff enough to hold the wide shot camera without flexing. The second camera would have a slightly larger arc than the one mounted on the VB head but that should not be much of an impact on the shot.

One thing that I will need to do is add weight to the VB head. I saw where you have a great little CB box and you said you were going to do a write up on it but I cannot find any details about it. So if you could please provide us with your little electronics box CB. See I do use the search feature!


And to answer your question my tripod has 4 screws that I used to anchor the Manfrotto quick release. That plate was what the Manfrotto arm was attached to and I had to use a very large set of slip joint pliers to tighten the knob that attached to the plate. The two heads for the cameras were tightened in the same manor since there is no way to get it done by hand, just a really bad design. Plain bolt heads would have been much better than the knobs since you could get a wrench on that. I will post pictures tomorrow.

And I do know that if this works it is very close to what you wanted me to do in the first place, a single plate that holds both cameras. I am still trying to accomplish what I want which is to have the wide shot camera only pan.

BTW, I have no "manage attachments" anywhere. I thought that was strange since I have that on other forums. Maybe my permissions aren't correct since I had some issues getting my account approved so I could post in the first place. Time to contact the admins.

I looked at the Losmandy site and they do some very fine work. Maybe if my idea works someone else will get it made.

[Mike Beckett]

Originally Posted by Chris Soucy

Well, hello Mike, bit late to the party, what you been up to and what do you think of it so far?

Chris - I don't think I have the required level of invention to provide constructive feedback!

I was going to suggest something like Paul's camera-on-a-camera solution as something that would just work easily, but I can see that Richard is a lot less afraid of going into the workshop and making things than I am!

[Richard Davidson]

If my new idea for the mount works then there will be no mechanical side to it anymore which would be sooo much better. The current mount that I came up with was due to the type of tripod I had and what ideas I could come up for that. A lot of weight and a lot of mass to work with that will be gone. Trust me I searched here and looked at everything thing I could find on dual camera mounts trying to find something that would do what I wanted. The new idea does away with all of that and it will just take a little patience to get it fitted and working I hope.

Since I can now post attachments:

[Chris Soucy]

...........I have not been able to find a shot of the underside of the VB head

Well, you have now..........

I think I've got a handle on your plan, though you may want to factor in a couple of holes in the plate surrounding the ball/ under the head so that the plate is actually bolted to the head base.

Those bolts holding the head base to the head are 3 mm Allen Key headed, what I don't know is how much meat is on them or whether you'd need to find longer replacements.

Remember too (though you're probably waaaay ahead of me) that you don't have a lot of wriggle room between the head base and tripod reciever, if you take into account the need to level the head on possible non level terrain, which means the plate between the two must be kept as thin as possible, with a possible 90 degree bend beyond the head/ receiver outer perimeter to give it the necessary rigidity.

Taking that one step further, it may be wise to have a 90 degree bend in both the left/ right axis and another perpendicular to the first in the rear/ forward axis, then Argon Tig/ Mig welding the two together at the join.

Another thing to note is that distinct beump where the pan lock shaft enters the body, which will require a cutout.

In case anyone is wondering where the fourth bolt dissapeared to, there isn't one.

The $64,000 questions are these:

1. Is Peter Harman going to have a fit of the vapours if you (partially) dismantle the loaner head?

2. If you do perform 1, that the base of the head isn't going to explode, showering everything within a 10 metre radius with springs, cogs, rachets and cams?

3. That performing 1. on the "real" VB (if it happens) isn't going to kybosh your warranty.

Whoa! Belay most of the above aka spot the deliberate mistake!

If you use the bolts holding the head together to attach the plate, instead of the top of the bolt heads being level with the base surface, the BOTTOM of the bolt head will be sitting ON the plate, which is REALLY going to limit head leveling.

Back on yer heads and keep thinking.


CS

PS: Subsequent thoughts:

1. Replace Allen head bolts with flat head machine screws, maybe get you a mil or two.

2. Line the top inside rim of the half BOWL with a flexble plastic strip, say 3 - 5 mm wide, that runs around the entire inside circumference, similar type of plastic as used for washing detergent squeezy bottles, maybe.

This will lift the half BALL up out of the BOWL by 4 - 6 mm depending on thickness of strip, but should still give you plenty of meat on the clamp knob and bolt.

The two together should pretty well solve the leveling adjustment issue.

[Richard Davidson]

Thanks for the pic as that could make things very easy.

As you said there is not much room between the head base and the tripod receiver (your measurement of 1/2 inch) so that is why I was going to mill out an area for the base of the head to fit into. That will make the portion under the head thinner but should still maintain it strength as it still has meat on the sides. The more I leave on the sides the stronger it will be overall. If it is not strong enough then I will have to add some sort of bracket that will sit on the shoulders of the head to add support. It might be a little strange looking with the bracket going all the way around the pan lock but who cares.

With the three screws in the bottom of the head I could just use those to attach my bracket to the head. I will see when the demo gets here. And Peter shouldn't worry because there is no way I am taking a demo unit apart. If I like what I see I will order one and screw up my unit. It shouldn't be rocket science to make a mount. The other thing I can do with the screws is drill and tap them so I could use a very small screw down the center to attach the plate, depends on their diameter.

I was figuring on two cutouts, one for the pan lock and the other for the pan drag dial. Remember the plate will fit around the base of the head.

And if all else fails lining the bowl as you suggested will easily give me the additional room I might end up needing. Since this dual head mount will be used mostly for football then I really shouldn't have any issues with the tripod being level, either in the stands or on the pressbox.

Man are you really giving your brain a workout over this! Where are the details on your cb box????

[Chris Soucy]

Ah, the CB box.

Well, my first idea foundered on the fact that all the boxes I could get my hands on were' exceedingly thin walled and ditto soft alluminium, leaving no meat for any screw attachment to really be secure.

Attempt two is still awaiting for the arrival here on Saturn of a Manfrotto 577 adapter:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/241139-REG/Manfrotto_577_577_Rapid_Connect_Adapter.html
The basic idea is for two components:

1. A length of 5 mm walled steel RHS, 50 mm X 50 mm and slightly longer than the adapter.

This would have the bottom face drilled and tapped to accept two 1/4" X 20 screws through either the head slide plate OR component 2.

In addition, the top face would have two holes drilled to allow two additional 1/4" X 20 screws to pass through freely to screw into either the 2 X 1/4" holes in the 577 adapter OR the base of component 2.

In line with those holes would be two additional holes in the base face to allow access for a screwdriver to do those screws up.

Yep, you guessed, the two sets of holes in the base face must be out of alignmet else it won't work.

Additionally, the 577 MAY need to be offset to the right face (looking from the rear) as a "hippy" camera on the 577 MAY prevent the adapter lock lever swinging correctly if the lever is not hangng over the side.

Additionally (this is gonna be the Rolls Royce of CB systems, I'm telling you) the inside left and right faces of the RHS will have two rails spot welded to each face, each rail being just long enough to accomodate component 2, with lifts at both ends of the rails to keep the component in place whilst testing is completed.

Once a suitable configuration has been achieved, one or both of component 2's can be fixed permanently within the rails using supplied screws through access holes in the left/ right faces into tapped holes in the side faces of component 2.

2. is a slab of steel at least 10 mm thick that will fit into the rail system in the 50 X 50 "lifter", but, it gets better.

Each one is drilled and tapped on the bottom face to accept 2 X 20's AND they are drilled and countersunk with access holes to allow 2 X 20's to pass through, either into the 577, the lifter box or the other "weight plate" as I call it.

In short, you can mix and match height and weight distribution in just about any way you like. The only fly in the ointment is you must start/ finish with a 577 adapter.

So, to demonstrate how this works, let's call the "lifter" - 1 and each weight plate (I'm expecting to supply 2 of, if it ever happens) - 2, every configuration must have the 577 on top, so I will ignore it.

Here goes, some possible configurations: Every item after the plus is "on top" of the item before, those in brackets are in the rails, L = lower rail, H = higher

0
2
2+2
1
2+1
2+2+1
2+1+2
1+2
1+2+2
1 [2L]
1 [2H]
1 [2L+2H]

There are heaps I've missed, but you get the idea.

If you can't get your camera to CB with that lot, you must be trying to get a POV to CB on an OB head!

Quite how you do all this without access to a CNG, or is that CNC?, machine (which I'm hoping to find here very shortly) is a bit of a mystery, though the lifter on it's own is pretty well doable for a reasonably tooled up engineer like yourself.

BTW, the reason for two 1/4" X 20 is that this stack is gonna get pretty high and one just ain't gonna cut it, not with an HD cam on top, anyway.

Let me know if I've missed anything.


CS

[Alastair Traill]

This works.
Tripod head is of nodal type and tilt axis is same as camera centre of gravity i.e. no springs etc required. Pan axis is under red spot. The small camera (TM900) is mounted on a ball but it could just as easily be mounted on its own fluid head. The second pic shows the EX3 replaced by a boom. Fluid damped booms are interesting.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/images/a...attach/jpg.gif

[Chris Soucy]

Geez, Alastair...........

Who in the heck engineered that bit of kit?

Doesn't look like anything "off the shelf" I've ever seen, and I shudder to think of the cost of having it made bespoke.

That first HTTP link you put in takes one into the abyss, btw.

Interesting thought, though, even if it looks like it would cost a kings ransom.


CS

[Richard Davidson]

And you thought my first bastard rig was a mess, it is nothing compared to your cb setup!

Alastair must be a master in the machine shop as his small fluid head shows.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-s...luid-head.html

[Chris Soucy]

Just in case anyone is thinking this thread has been swallowed by some sort of black hole, wrong.

We're waiting on the arrival at Richards' of the Vinten VB loaner, amongst other things, which I will leave to Richard to do the necessary about.

I am still waiting on the arrival of the Manfrotto 577 adapter so that my CB box can see the light of day, though as I am imagining it currently doing breast stroke down the Suez canal, it could still be some time.

Do not adjust your sets, normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.


CS

[Mike Beckett]

Ironic that I now have two 577s, and only need one. The world is ill-divided, Mr S!