Vinten, Sachtler, Libec, Miller, Manfrotto Shootout

[Chris Soucy]

Panavision NZ, dealers for both Manfrotto and Sachtller, are trying to source a Manfrotto 504HD, 546BK system.

Sachtler Germany (Barbara Joumann) are talking to Sachtler Singapore, who will be talking to Panavision NZ about sourcing a Sachtler FSB6 with both a FSB slide plate AND a Cine DSLR slide plate, thus getting two systems in one.

Still no word from Miller on their weapon of choice, but in due course...............

Libec are being strangely silent, so far.

Keep those fingers crossed, we're nearly there.


CS

PS: Talk about being busier than a one armed paper hanger when this lot turns up!!

[Chris Soucy]

Just heard from the MD of Australasias Libec distributor, got half his staff off sick so doing his own "one armed paper hanger" routine.

He's getting back to me on Monday.

I think we're going to do it!


CS

[Richard D. George]

There is more to the Cine DSLR than just the QR plate. I will receive one of the new QR plates tomorrow (from FilmTools) to use with a FSB 6, but the Cine DSLR fluid head has additional properties.

[Richard D. George]

There is more to the Cine DSLR than just the QR plate. I will receive one of the new QR plates tomorrow (from FilmTools) to use with a FSB 6, but the Cine DSLR fluid head has additional properties.

[Chris Soucy]

Sachtler can't get their hands on a full Cine DSLR (for review purposes) to save their lives; all units are currently pre sold, including their next shipment.

However, according to Barbara, the counterbalance stepping is almost identical, even tho' the spring rates are different, so, no, this won't be a "full Monty" on the Cine DSLR, but it's going to be a nice taster.

I'll get one down the track when they can actually get their hands on one.

Richard, cut me a bit of slack on this.

I've managed to get Vinten, Sachtler, Miller, Manfrotto and hopefully Libec to the table for (probably) one of the most sought after shootouts in camera support history (much to my utter amazement and something of a minor miracle in itself), the impossible takes just a little longer.

Which begs a question:

Leaving the Cine DSLR out for the moment, is there a consensus as to what other category of support DVinfoers would like to see?

Higher rated?

Lower rated?

You guys & gals tell me what you want, I'll ask the manufacturers/ dealers for it and do the necessary

Can't say fairer than that.


CS

[Richard D. George]

I was not trying to be difficult - just trying to point out that the head is stated to be different as to settings. My apologies. I should get the new QR plate today, and will let you know what I think of it. I really appreciate what you are doing. I am curious to see if you find the 504 substantially different than all the previous manfrotto heads.

[Robin Burrows]

I have just started to review my website and redesign it. I have reviewed the new Miller Compass 20 and 25 carbon fibre tripods on there and was very very impressed.

The 25 is my prefered choice and I bought one on the spot.
i have nothing to do with Miller and have not used one before but know a lot of broadcast studios using them and reccomending them.
After problems with other manufacters I bought it the day the rep showed me.

In terms of support, communication and friendly service the UK rep is second to none.

Many other manufacteres have now moved sales and manufacture abroad and Im not as impressed but will keep trying them all out.
Im trying it out with a PMw 350 shortly.

As an ex defence engineer I like to know why I am buying things and using a laser pointer, stick on graduated scales and newton meters I could compare the drag pan tilt etc with others.
I also liked testing the legs for chater in high winds. Im now thinking of getting a compass 20 and a 150mm bowl variant.
Kit | Submersible Productions


Happy filming.
Robin

[Chris Soucy]

I'm impressed.

You've upgraded my meagre knowledge of Miller immensly.

I'm even more keen to see what Miller are going to put up for the shootout than ever.

A tad abrupt on occasions but still emminently readable.

I learn something from every review I read, and did so from yours.

Keep up the good work.

Nice site, btw.


CS

[Roger Shealy]

Chris,

This review is getting out of control! : )

In your original post you asked for criteria to include in your test. In addition to general handling of a typcial 4-10 pound traditional camcorder. I'd like insight into the tripod's ability to balance and perform with the extreme front-CG caused by DSLR's with long lenses. Can we get true pro performance for under $1,500?

This picture demonstrates the new challenge of DSLR's on tripods (all-metal SMC Takumar 85-210mm):

[Chris Soucy]

Originally Posted by Roger Shealy

DSLR's with long lenses. Can we get true pro performance for under $1,500?

Short answer - maybe.

Long answer - Going to be a struggle with that particular lens, but maybe just do-able.

As you can see from that lens' construction, there if no practical way to get an attachment point anywhere near the vertical COG of the entire setup.

Thus you're left with mounting the camera waaay back, almost certainly beyond any adjustment you can get with the slide plate, no matter how much fiddling, tho' I wouldn't bet my life on it.

So, you're talking of some sort of rail system, and the clock starts ticking on the support budget.

This leaves you with another BIIIG problem.

The entire weight of that lens is being applied (unless someone has come up with a better camera attachment system I don't know about) to one poxy 1/4" screw insert in the camera base.

That insert can't be more than 3/4", say, from the lower front edge of the camera base.

In effect, that huge lens lever is trying to:

a. Pull the 1/4" insert clean out of the camera base.

b. Warp the lower front edge of the camera base plate.

c. Pull the entire base plate off the camera.

Whatever is taking the worst of the strain is going to allow that lens/ body setup to do a startling imitation of a nodding donkey.

The only way around that, looking at the lens construction, is some sort of intermediate adapter between the lens hood and the lens bayonet mount, that allows a support rod attachment down to the rail system.

Job done - if such an adapter exists or can be manufactured. Support budget clock just keeps ticking.

Then you run up against what might be the giant killer.

Standard video heads use a pear shaped cam to apply ever increasing amounts of force to a spring system of some sort.

The profile of that cam dictates just how much force is applied at what tilt.

I won't go into the details, but "yer average" head is designed for a camera COG of either 100 mm or 125 mm above the head plate. Some of the newer ones are quoting COG well below this and undoubtedly have different profiled cams to standard systems.

HOWEVER, whether anyone has profiled a cam that can work with the extremely low COG as presented by that monster, I can't say, taking into account you now also have a rail system "up top" as well.

So, what to do?

Give standard spring and cam heads the flick and go to something like the Varizoom COG head instead.

VariZoom ZeroGravity (Zero Gravity) Tripod Head, Tripods, Lens Controls, Camera Stabilizers & Supports, Batteries, Monitor Kits - Phone: 512-219-7722

Because the camera/ rail system is mounted at exactly the systems horizontal and vertical centre of gravity with respect to the pivot point, the only thing required is some tilt drag to stop the entire setup turning into a propeller in a breeze.

Of course, getting it set to that pivot point is a PITA and if you're making constant changes to the rig config, it will drive you completely demented.

Personally, I'd go for one in a flash if the setup, adjustment ease and bearing quality were perfect (oh, and I was using anything like that monster rig in the piccie).

At this point in time I don't believe they've cracked those problems, and I've only got a little old Canon XH A1 to play with anyway.

BUT, it might just be the answer to those long lens prayers for you'se guys.

It's cheap too, so you might just squeak in under that $1500 even with rails and front of lens adapter.

Nothing to lose by checking it out.

I think my short answer may have sufficed.


CS

[Chris Soucy]

with the Sachtler, scheduled to ship ex Munich week beginning 15 Nov.

............my, you lot have impure thoughts!


CS

[Peter Harman]

I dont know for certain, but i suspect you could use the Vinten extended camera slide plate with the 1/4" screw and get somewhere near. The camera body could be attached one end of the plate and itll allow you to slide the body way back. It'll only fit the Vinten heads though.

Vinten | Extended Camera Slide Plate with 2x 3/8 " Screws | www.vinten.com

[Roger Shealy]

Peter,

Thanks. I'll try to determine the CG and see how that matches up with the extended plate. If I were to buy today, I'd probably go with the Vision Blue if I knew it would work with these type DSLR set-ups.


Chris,

Thanks for the mention of the Zero Gravity unit. I saw it when it came out and I was shooting with an A1, but hadn't really thought about it for using with a DSLR, which makes sense. There doesn't seem to be a lot of thoughtful reviews or even informal feedback on that particular unit. Has it been favorably accepted by the pros?

[Chris Soucy]

You sure that's the correct plate, Peter?

On B&H the 3330 - 33 is listed as for the HD - 250.

They also have the 3364 - 900SP listed for the Vision 8, 11, 100 & 250 and the 3449 - 900SP listed for the Vision 3 & 6.

Can't see any difference from the piccies, but that doesn't mean much. Not exactly cheap, either.

Even if the plate wasn't long enough to do the job, it may be usefull if you do have to go for a rail system to suport the front of the lens.

Roger:

I wouldn't like to say definatively one way or the other about acceptance by pro's, but it's low profie is, I believe, due to them not addressing those issues I mentioned in my previous post, and they are pretty substantial issues.

If they want to send me one, I can give 'em (and DVinfo) chapter and verse.


CS

[Chris Soucy]

In an effort to make this shootout as painless as possible (huh!), I'm attempting to design a standard form to display as much of the relevant information for each system as possible.

This will allow me to simply print parameters down the LHS and enter the relevant information for each system, side by side, enabling you to simply run your eyes along the row to see which unit does what and how.

It will also reduce the amount of info I need to include in the text which, with this many systems, will make it's retrieval an absolute nightmare.

So, for anyone familiar with Consumer magazine (they must have one in the States, surely?) you get a mountain of info in a handleable form allowing you to compare everything with everything else.

I will possibly enter the same data for my control system (does anyone need to ask?) for comparison purposes.

So, I'm going to attach the rough draft I've knocked up so far and see if anyone can come up with anything they think needs adding, deleting or amending.

Don't worry about either the layout or wording, this is a REAL rough draft.

I'd especially welcome any input from the manufacturers / suppliers involved here.

So folks, on your marks, get set, go..................


CS