Anybody see the newest (cheap) Manfrotto head?

Carlos E. Martinez · December 17th, 2004, 04:48 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Marc Schotland :
Both the 701RC2 and the 503 are true fluid heads.
-->>>

Thanks, Mark. That's all I wanted to know.

Carlos

Doug Fearman · December 31st, 2004, 04:44 PM

I've been using the 700RC2 head for nearly a year and a half and am very pleased with the smooth pans and tilts it allows. I use it with 3021 sticks. I liked it so much I purchased 2 more heads for the school I teach at.

Brendan Marnell · January 1st, 2005, 02:51 PM

Very useful discussion for a prospective XL2 or XL1s buyer.

May i butt in with a few questions, please?

Have any of you used a tripod with either of these and which one would you recommend for outdoors wildlife videography at fixed well-lit locations? The lightest one perhaps?

Brendan

Matt Gettemeier · January 1st, 2005, 04:18 PM

Thanks for replying Marc! This is the kind of input which makes DVinfo valueable... but please elaborate a little bit. It was my understanding that Manfrotto is recently able to offer TRUE FLUID heads, as opposed to previous LUBRICATED FRICTION heads... which were always marketed as fluid heads... even though they weren't in fact, TRUE fluid heads...?

Okay so in the last year Manfrotto (or with outsourced technology) found a way to incorporate a small fluid cartridge... so that it is now fluid cartridge technology that is allowing Manfrotto to make TRUE fluid heads? Is this the case or can you please further explain?

Previously I understood it to be that Manfrotto only made ONE true fluid head and that within the last year there are just a few additional models added that will be true fluid heads... and I didn't think the 503 was one of them... unless it's been recently updated.

If you want to sell a thousand Manfrotto heads for your company then feel free to explain the differences to us and which heads are the TRUE fluid heads... please?

Allen Mitts · January 1st, 2005, 09:30 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Doug Fearman : I've been using the 700RC2 head for nearly a year and a half and am very pleased with the smooth pans and tilts it allows. I use it with 3021 sticks. I liked it so much I purchased 2 more heads for the school I teach at. -->>>

Doug, I've had a 700RC2 for a while and recently upgraded to a 701RC2. I've found the 701 to be better (smoother) in both pans and tilts making the upgarde worth it for me (at present I am using a light weight Sony TRV38). You might want to check one out.

Regards, Allen

Doug Fearman · January 2nd, 2005, 06:13 AM

Thanks for the information Allen. I'll have to check that out.
Doug

Matt Gettemeier · January 3rd, 2005, 06:22 AM

I'm gonna' be patient here, but I hope we get some more input on the true fluid head vs. lubricated friction head... I swear 99% of the people on this board don't know the difference and they're all too happy to keep it that way!

I've got a g1380 and it's a $900 head... it's also a lubricated friction head made by Manfrotto... I knew that when I bought it... but I didn't mind because I liked how the head felt and operated, but on this board we have a lot of guys who see "true fluid operation" as a status symbol and so they perpetuate ignorance 'cause they don't want to admit that on a basic level their head is inferior to an O'Conner or some other super-high-end brand.

Please give us the details Marc! Otherwise you're going to have a bunch of guys going against the truth that I've struggled to get out...

Again, it was my understanding that only VERY recently that Manfrotto found a way to offer TRUE fluid heads in the recent upgrades to previous models... or is it that Manfrotto found a way to further smooth out the operation of their lubricated friction heads?

This isn't a "my head is better then your head" discussion... (It doesn't matter that I bought an expensive head.) I started this thread to brag up how much I liked the newest cheap Manfrotto head. But from what I understand I'm on the same scale as the rest of these guys... meaning that the main difference in most heads under $1K is in the manufacturing and design quality of the same design... a lubricated friction head. I'm excited to think that Manfrotto is finally able to offer TRUE fluid heads in this price range... if in fact that's the case!

Marc Schotland · January 3rd, 2005, 11:35 AM

The real question is what makes a fluid head truly fluid. Manfrotto has been able to offer true fluid technology for many years and is not a recent development to our head family. The key to the various heads (and what sets them apart) is control. Technically speaking ALL Manfrotto pro video heads are fluid – the heads all contain fluid cartridges as the mechanism to tilt and pan. It’s how one applies drag to the fluid cartridges that set the heads apart from each other. For example, the 700RC2 and 701RC2 are true fluid heads in that all movement is riding on bed of fluid (within the cartridge). But there is limited control of drag for the tilt/pan which can only be achieved by using the pan/tilt lock lever.

The 501 is similar but offers more control over your tilt/pan drag in that a separate dial has been added which applies a Teflon plate onto the tilt mechanism to apply a drag. That is, the 501 is still moving within a fluid cartridge system, but one applies a friction resistance to achieve drag. Hence, it is much better than the 700RC2 and 701RC2 in controlling tilt / pan motion, but one can still feel a slight hiccup when starting/stopping a camera movement when the friction drag is applied (but nowhere near as noticeable if using the pan/tilt lock lever to control drag as with the above 700Rc2 and 701RC2)

The 503, 516 and the new 519 are very similar to the 501 as far as fluid cartridges is concerned, but instead of applying a friction method to control drag, one reduces or increases the amount of fluid in the cartridge to create drag. This system is by far the smoothest as there is never any hard friction applied to create a drag – only a fluid method. This system produces an overall smoother camera move as the fluid is being used to control movement. Many people refer to this group of heads as ‘true’ fluid because the method of drag is contained in the fluid and when comparing the 503 to the 501, the 503 is much smoother when the drag is applied.

The 510 head (since discontinued) is one of our heads that utilize 3 separate fluid cartridges to create drag. That is, one can choose between three different modes of drag (light, medium and heavy – numbered 1, 2 and 3) plus a zero fluid (numbered ‘0’ which bypasses all cartridges and the head is literally free-floating --great for whip pans / tilts).

We used to have, but also since discontinued, the 505 head (VERY similar to the Gitzo G1380),which used a different type of drag control. It can best be described as a ‘pressure control’ system (or Lubricated Friction as Matt noted) of fluid drag on the cartridges, whereas the above 503, 516 and 519 can best be described as ‘volume control’ as the amount of fluid in the cartridges is adjusted to increase/decrease the drag.

So, hopefully I was able to explain this without making the issue more confusing. The 701RC2 is a tremendous fluid head that provides beautiful results without a significant investment. You won’t have all the control capabilities that our high-end heads contain, but that’s why Manfrotto offers a full range for most any application from 22lbs (10kg) down to your smallest DV camera. And in the case of the 519 head, you can use this same head to support your lightweight DV camera all the way up to your 22 lbs load!

Marc Schotland
Manfrotto

Michael Gibbons · January 3rd, 2005, 12:21 PM

I was looking to get a pro head. I stumbled across this thread, became intrigued. Went to B&H (online) and grew more intrigued. So I bought the head. I have had it for a week. My PDX10 resides atop it and a pair of cheap bogan legs I rescued from the storage locker at work.
This is my first "pro" tripod set up. I could not be more pleased. My previous tripod cost $35.00 and only saw use with my little panna DV53 (a great first cam, btw). I never even contemplated putting my pdx on such a contraption, so it is good to have a viable and working support- at a price I could afford.

I would vote that this was, hands down, the best sub $100.00 video purchase I have ever made.

I can't speak for the people with decades of experiance, but I can speak to those who have are starting to upgrade from one chip to three chip cams, and who may have not made a corresponding upgrade in their support hardware.

Buy this head.

Matt Gettemeier · January 3rd, 2005, 05:09 PM

Thanks for replying Marc! I really appreciate responses of this caliber... For me the addiction to the forums is in feeling that I can help others and also find help when I need it. I rarely come to the forums to "push" a product, unless I feel it's REALLY worthy for some reason.

I just happened to feel that this head is a real bargain for the minimal investment. As stated I've already got a really pricey head and I just wanted another set of "ready" sticks for the times that I don't want to drag a BIG pod out! As stated earlier, for anybody that wants to supplement a larger pod... or for anybody just making the move to more professional gear, I think you could do a lot worse then this head... and for the price, you can't do better.

For anybody else following Marc's comments I want to add my own OPINION and say that if you can get a head that provides drag control through VOLUME rather then pressure/friction... I'd go with the VOLUME heads! I have a friction head and I actually like it a ton... but I think you're more likely to get repeatable pans, tilts, and smoother starts and stops via volume control rather then friction control... Ever hear of "stiction"? Stiction is a factor of friction... meaning the breaking point of motion start or the catching point of motion stop... A volume-based head should be immune to stiction/friction. At least in theory...

Troy Lamont · January 4th, 2005, 11:10 AM

I found this thread by happenstance when looking for a new tripod/head combo.

I bought the 701RC2 based on this thread alone. I'm glad I did!

Especially after reading the very informative technical article by Marc.

Marc,

I applaud you and your company for going the extra step in providing information and getting in touch with the end users.

I upgraded from a store bought Ambico that had seen better days. For me the improvement is dramatic and I love the feel of the RC2 head.

Although I'm not aspiring to any pro levels, when I'm taping my daughter it makes me look more the part! ;-)

Troy
Happy 701RC2/3001 Pro owner

Michael Gibbons · January 4th, 2005, 11:20 AM

Troy
Happy 701RC2/3001 Pro owner -->>>

Hey! That's my set up! And I agree, it rocks. What size cam are you using?

Troy Lamont · January 4th, 2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

What size cam are you using?

JVC GR-HD1 (bout 3 lbs), I've also got a Sony TRV20 DV cam but I haven't gotten around to using it with the new setup.

You're right it's a nice setup!

Troy

Allen Mitts · January 4th, 2005, 07:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Troy Lamont :
Marc,

I applaud you and your company for going the extra step in providing information and getting in touch with the end users. -->>>

DITTO! Thanks Marc, your informative presence is much appreciated!
And I am really enjoying my 756B/701RC2 combo.

Allen

Brendan Marnell · January 5th, 2005, 05:34 AM

Thank you Marc for your advice in reply to my email.
Great help for the small guy is much appreciated.

brendan

December 31st, 2004, 04:44 PM	#17
Doug Fearman Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: upstate new york Posts: 97	I've been using the 700RC2 head for nearly a year and a half and am very pleased with the smooth pans and tilts it allows. I use it with 3021 sticks. I liked it so much I purchased 2 more heads for the school I teach at. __________________ Would someone turn on the lights!?

January 2nd, 2005, 06:13 AM	#21
Doug Fearman Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: upstate new york Posts: 97	Thanks for the information Allen. I'll have to check that out. Doug __________________ Would someone turn on the lights!?

January 3rd, 2005, 12:21 PM	#24
Michael Gibbons Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Loveland, Colorado, USA Posts: 292	701RC2 I was looking to get a pro head. I stumbled across this thread, became intrigued. Went to B&H (online) and grew more intrigued. So I bought the head. I have had it for a week. My PDX10 resides atop it and a pair of cheap bogan legs I rescued from the storage locker at work. This is my first "pro" tripod set up. I could not be more pleased. My previous tripod cost $35.00 and only saw use with my little panna DV53 (a great first cam, btw). I never even contemplated putting my pdx on such a contraption, so it is good to have a viable and working support- at a price I could afford. I would vote that this was, hands down, the best sub $100.00 video purchase I have ever made. I can't speak for the people with decades of experiance, but I can speak to those who have are starting to upgrade from one chip to three chip cams, and who may have not made a corresponding upgrade in their support hardware. Buy this head. __________________ " When some wild-eyed, eight foot tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head against a bar room wall, and looks you crooked in the eye, and he asks you if you've payed your dues, well, you just stare that big suker right back in the eye, and you remember what old Jack Burton always says at a time like that, 'Have you paid your dues, Jack? Yes sir, the check is in the mail."

January 4th, 2005, 11:10 AM	#26
Troy Lamont Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Studio City, CA Posts: 236	Interesting turnout I found this thread by happenstance when looking for a new tripod/head combo. I bought the 701RC2 based on this thread alone. I'm glad I did! Especially after reading the very informative technical article by Marc. Marc, I applaud you and your company for going the extra step in providing information and getting in touch with the end users. I upgraded from a store bought Ambico that had seen better days. For me the improvement is dramatic and I love the feel of the RC2 head. Although I'm not aspiring to any pro levels, when I'm taping my daughter it makes me look more the part! ;-) Troy Happy 701RC2/3001 Pro owner

January 4th, 2005, 11:20 AM	#27
Michael Gibbons Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Loveland, Colorado, USA Posts: 292	Re: Interesting turnout Troy Happy 701RC2/3001 Pro owner -->>> Hey! That's my set up! And I agree, it rocks. What size cam are you using? __________________ " When some wild-eyed, eight foot tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head against a bar room wall, and looks you crooked in the eye, and he asks you if you've payed your dues, well, you just stare that big suker right back in the eye, and you remember what old Jack Burton always says at a time like that, 'Have you paid your dues, Jack? Yes sir, the check is in the mail."

December 17th, 2004, 04:48 AM	#16
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	<<<-- Originally posted by Marc Schotland : Both the 701RC2 and the 503 are true fluid heads. -->>> Thanks, Mark. That's all I wanted to know. Carlos

January 1st, 2005, 02:51 PM	#18
Brendan Marnell Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 938	Very useful discussion for a prospective XL2 or XL1s buyer. May i butt in with a few questions, please? Have any of you used a tripod with either of these and which one would you recommend for outdoors wildlife videography at fixed well-lit locations? The lightest one perhaps? Brendan

January 1st, 2005, 04:18 PM	#19
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	Thanks for replying Marc! This is the kind of input which makes DVinfo valueable... but please elaborate a little bit. It was my understanding that Manfrotto is recently able to offer TRUE FLUID heads, as opposed to previous LUBRICATED FRICTION heads... which were always marketed as fluid heads... even though they weren't in fact, TRUE fluid heads...? Okay so in the last year Manfrotto (or with outsourced technology) found a way to incorporate a small fluid cartridge... so that it is now fluid cartridge technology that is allowing Manfrotto to make TRUE fluid heads? Is this the case or can you please further explain? Previously I understood it to be that Manfrotto only made ONE true fluid head and that within the last year there are just a few additional models added that will be true fluid heads... and I didn't think the 503 was one of them... unless it's been recently updated. If you want to sell a thousand Manfrotto heads for your company then feel free to explain the differences to us and which heads are the TRUE fluid heads... please?

January 1st, 2005, 09:30 PM	#20
Allen Mitts New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orange County, CA. Posts: 24	<<<-- Originally posted by Doug Fearman : I've been using the 700RC2 head for nearly a year and a half and am very pleased with the smooth pans and tilts it allows. I use it with 3021 sticks. I liked it so much I purchased 2 more heads for the school I teach at. -->>> Doug, I've had a 700RC2 for a while and recently upgraded to a 701RC2. I've found the 701 to be better (smoother) in both pans and tilts making the upgarde worth it for me (at present I am using a light weight Sony TRV38). You might want to check one out. Regards, Allen

January 3rd, 2005, 06:22 AM	#22
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	I'm gonna' be patient here, but I hope we get some more input on the true fluid head vs. lubricated friction head... I swear 99% of the people on this board don't know the difference and they're all too happy to keep it that way! I've got a g1380 and it's a $900 head... it's also a lubricated friction head made by Manfrotto... I knew that when I bought it... but I didn't mind because I liked how the head felt and operated, but on this board we have a lot of guys who see "true fluid operation" as a status symbol and so they perpetuate ignorance 'cause they don't want to admit that on a basic level their head is inferior to an O'Conner or some other super-high-end brand. Please give us the details Marc! Otherwise you're going to have a bunch of guys going against the truth that I've struggled to get out... Again, it was my understanding that only VERY recently that Manfrotto found a way to offer TRUE fluid heads in the recent upgrades to previous models... or is it that Manfrotto found a way to further smooth out the operation of their lubricated friction heads? This isn't a "my head is better then your head" discussion... (It doesn't matter that I bought an expensive head.) I started this thread to brag up how much I liked the newest cheap Manfrotto head. But from what I understand I'm on the same scale as the rest of these guys... meaning that the main difference in most heads under $1K is in the manufacturing and design quality of the same design... a lubricated friction head. I'm excited to think that Manfrotto is finally able to offer TRUE fluid heads in this price range... if in fact that's the case!

January 3rd, 2005, 11:35 AM	#23
Marc Schotland Manfrotto Product Manager Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italy Posts: 33	The real question is what makes a fluid head truly fluid. Manfrotto has been able to offer true fluid technology for many years and is not a recent development to our head family. The key to the various heads (and what sets them apart) is control. Technically speaking ALL Manfrotto pro video heads are fluid – the heads all contain fluid cartridges as the mechanism to tilt and pan. It’s how one applies drag to the fluid cartridges that set the heads apart from each other. For example, the 700RC2 and 701RC2 are true fluid heads in that all movement is riding on bed of fluid (within the cartridge). But there is limited control of drag for the tilt/pan which can only be achieved by using the pan/tilt lock lever. The 501 is similar but offers more control over your tilt/pan drag in that a separate dial has been added which applies a Teflon plate onto the tilt mechanism to apply a drag. That is, the 501 is still moving within a fluid cartridge system, but one applies a friction resistance to achieve drag. Hence, it is much better than the 700RC2 and 701RC2 in controlling tilt / pan motion, but one can still feel a slight hiccup when starting/stopping a camera movement when the friction drag is applied (but nowhere near as noticeable if using the pan/tilt lock lever to control drag as with the above 700Rc2 and 701RC2) The 503, 516 and the new 519 are very similar to the 501 as far as fluid cartridges is concerned, but instead of applying a friction method to control drag, one reduces or increases the amount of fluid in the cartridge to create drag. This system is by far the smoothest as there is never any hard friction applied to create a drag – only a fluid method. This system produces an overall smoother camera move as the fluid is being used to control movement. Many people refer to this group of heads as ‘true’ fluid because the method of drag is contained in the fluid and when comparing the 503 to the 501, the 503 is much smoother when the drag is applied. The 510 head (since discontinued) is one of our heads that utilize 3 separate fluid cartridges to create drag. That is, one can choose between three different modes of drag (light, medium and heavy – numbered 1, 2 and 3) plus a zero fluid (numbered ‘0’ which bypasses all cartridges and the head is literally free-floating --great for whip pans / tilts). We used to have, but also since discontinued, the 505 head (VERY similar to the Gitzo G1380),which used a different type of drag control. It can best be described as a ‘pressure control’ system (or Lubricated Friction as Matt noted) of fluid drag on the cartridges, whereas the above 503, 516 and 519 can best be described as ‘volume control’ as the amount of fluid in the cartridges is adjusted to increase/decrease the drag. So, hopefully I was able to explain this without making the issue more confusing. The 701RC2 is a tremendous fluid head that provides beautiful results without a significant investment. You won’t have all the control capabilities that our high-end heads contain, but that’s why Manfrotto offers a full range for most any application from 22lbs (10kg) down to your smallest DV camera. And in the case of the 519 head, you can use this same head to support your lightweight DV camera all the way up to your 22 lbs load! Marc Schotland Manfrotto

January 3rd, 2005, 05:09 PM	#25
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	Thanks for replying Marc! I really appreciate responses of this caliber... For me the addiction to the forums is in feeling that I can help others and also find help when I need it. I rarely come to the forums to "push" a product, unless I feel it's REALLY worthy for some reason. I just happened to feel that this head is a real bargain for the minimal investment. As stated I've already got a really pricey head and I just wanted another set of "ready" sticks for the times that I don't want to drag a BIG pod out! As stated earlier, for anybody that wants to supplement a larger pod... or for anybody just making the move to more professional gear, I think you could do a lot worse then this head... and for the price, you can't do better. For anybody else following Marc's comments I want to add my own OPINION and say that if you can get a head that provides drag control through VOLUME rather then pressure/friction... I'd go with the VOLUME heads! I have a friction head and I actually like it a ton... but I think you're more likely to get repeatable pans, tilts, and smoother starts and stops via volume control rather then friction control... Ever hear of "stiction"? Stiction is a factor of friction... meaning the breaking point of motion start or the catching point of motion stop... A volume-based head should be immune to stiction/friction. At least in theory...

January 4th, 2005, 07:22 PM	#29
Allen Mitts New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Orange County, CA. Posts: 24	Re: Interesting turnout <<<-- Originally posted by Troy Lamont : Marc, I applaud you and your company for going the extra step in providing information and getting in touch with the end users. -->>> DITTO! Thanks Marc, your informative presence is much appreciated! And I am really enjoying my 756B/701RC2 combo. Allen

January 5th, 2005, 05:34 AM	#30
Brendan Marnell Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 938	Thank you Marc for your advice in reply to my email. Great help for the small guy is much appreciated. brendan