EX1 Tripod selection

[Dan Brockett]

One factor not mentioned often when people are contemplating tripods is to think about what types of movement you will need to perform most often. I currently own two different tripod systems:

1. Bogen 501 head with Bogen mDve legs

2. Sachtler DV-6SB head with Miller Solo DV carbon legs

Basically, cheap tripods are great for interviews, which is what I mostly shoot. Think about it, you rarely move the camera much during sit-down interviews, therefore a cheap POS like my Bogen is great if you are shooting sit-down interviews.

However, cheap tripods are incapable of smooth starts and stops and are incapable of performing a smooth simultaneous pan and tilt. If you need to shoot movement smoothly and precisely, its simple, you need a real tripod. If you shoot with long lenses, you need a real tripod

Dan

[Chris Soucy]

The primary difference between 75 mm and 100 mm units is sheer mass in the receiver build.

The beefier 100 mm units significantly strengthen the receiver assembly thus improving the resistance to warping and flexing.

It also moves the leg pivot points out relative to the sticks/ head centre vertical axis, thus giving yet more stability.

You should experience a measureable difference in rigidity between two units of identical build characteristcs but different bowl widths.


CS

[Paul Chiu]

hi piotr,

i just made 2 calls, one to my sachtler/vinten tech rep, his name is rick low at 818-847-1193 and he's out until jan 5, 2009
then i call the east coast USA rep at 888-484-6836 x155 and they are doing half days before the holidays.
so, i'll call them next week.
in the meantime, does the bottom of your bogen plate have several holes, one for the main screw and another for the anti-twisting function.

if so, i don't see why they would not work, even with the recessed design of the sachtler platform.

i have used stuff you're using, just not that make. they have all been rock solid on either my sachtler smaller 0650 system with the DV6 SB as well as the larger 100mm DV8/100.

heck, i can stand on the DV8 with no problems.

and what dan brockett and chris soucy said are dead on, the 100mm gives me perfect counterbalance in moments where i am 6 rows back in a concert and following a dancer across the large stage.

you cannot do this smoothly with a smaller ball or legs.
the 100mm DV8 gives me the security to ensure the dancer moves horizontally, with perfect framing, without stress, work, or hassle.

paul

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Paul Chiu wrote:

"if this does not help, let me know and i'll call my sachtler contact."

Paul, if you please checked this for me, I'd be grateful. The reason of my doubts is that the Sachtler's "Touch and Go" QR plates look sort of recessed in relation to the upper head surface; I'm not sure whether - if I attach my Manfrotto 357PLV adapter- they will attach and detach without problems.

And BTW, I'm thinking of Sachtler (and not Vinten, which is the second on my wish-list), because of DV 8 claims of perfectly supporting/counterbalancing anything in the 1-12 kg range. This is my case, as the bare camera is just 2.5kg while to fully-blown rig - just above 10kg... On the other hand, Vinten Vision 8 specs are 5.5 - 14 kg. Will there be a real-life difference between the two with just the naked camera?

Speaking of Sachtler DV 8, there are two version s- with the 75mm and 100mm half-bowls; what is the difference in practical terms (I mean, the DV 8/100 is more expensive, and uses more expensive 100mm tripods; how are they better than the 75mm versions)?

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Many thanks, Chris and Paul, for all your precious advice.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Thanks guys for answers.

I'm decided to go with the Sachtler DV 8/100; which legs do you recommend:

- aluminium (the model 0860), or
-carbon fibre (the model 0862)?

I mean, the CF is lighter, but is this specific model also noticeably stiffer than alu?

[Paul Chiu]

piotr,

the dv8/100 (sachtler# 0806) is a great choice. i have used it now for 7 months and loving everything about it except for the weight, so you guessed it, i recommend the carbon fiber legs.
the system kit (sachtler# 0862) is a fabulous deal, offering the 100mm dv8 head and the eng2 carbon legs with spreaders and case at a price for the head and legs alone.

sachtler: Stativsysteme

if you're in the usa

sachtler 0862 | B&H Photo Video


for us, the carbon legs feels same as the aluminum, just lighter and on paper, the carbon supports 88lbs vs. the aluminum's 77lbs.
i'm about 155lbs and the (sachtler #5386) carbon legs support me with no sense of flexing.

ok, so you may remember that in my photo, the legs did not look sachtler.
yes, those are gitzo gt3530ls carbon legs

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...8-img_0372.jpg

specs here:

Gitzo | GT3530LS Long Systematic 6X Carbon Fiber | GT3530LS

those gitzo legs with a gitzo 100mm bowl assembly as in the picture provides a great tool on the road.
for one, it's half the weight of the sachtler carbon legs and supports to 40lbs on paper.
so for the terrains where i may not have lights and other stuff on it, it is more than enough.

the negative is not having a spreader, so that may be an issue for you.
for me, i don't need spreaders on hills anyway plus the minimum height with the gitzo carbon legs and my pmw-ex1 gear is under 6". with the 5386 sachtler legs, it's over 18", so i can do plants and horizon shots easier with the gitzo than the sachtler. the lighter system weight helps my neck and back as a bonus.


just an alternative for you if it works for your jobs.

paul

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Thanks guys for answers.

I'm decided to go with the Sachtler DV 8/100; which legs do you recommend:

- aluminium (the model 0860), or
-carbon fibre (the model 0862)?

I mean, the CF is lighter, but is this specific model also noticeably stiffer than alu?

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Paul and Chris (or anyone else who could express your opinion :);

Buying a Sachtler DV 8 system, I'm really making an enormous financial effort, considering how much I spent recently on my EX1 peripherals; therefore I'd ne very grateful for a most impartial and objective opinion on what Chris has already commented (in his non-compromise fashion):

- do I really need to go for 100mm bowl, or would the 75mm be just enough?

For cameras like EX1, Z1 and alike, 75mm is appropriate, with 100mm being required by the full-sized cameras. On the other hand, if I attach all the goodies to my EX1 (see the pic), which category does it belong?

And the price difference is quite substantial, with the DV 8/100 system at some GBP 2,100 and the DV8 (on the same legs) at GBP 1,600 (prices without VAT).

[Piotr Wozniacki]

BTW, looking at my own setup above, I somehow have some doubts whether something as long and heavy can be fixed to the Sachtler DV 8 (or DV 8/100, for that matter) using this proprietary QR plate rather than a full-sized, slide-through one:

sachtler: Fluid heads

[Chris Soucy]

Yep, "no compromise" it is.

Funny thing is, a serious scrute of that photo tells me you don't take any prisoners either.

You're gonna have video wannabees drooling all over their keyboards right across the planet.

Which does kinda beg the inevitable: "Why are you asking the 75 mm vs. 100 mm" question.

The sheer length of that setup screams 100 mm.

Then take into account the sheer mass of that system and 100 mm is a forgone conclusion.

You don't appear to have compromised on one single thing with that rig, don't spoil it for the wrong support choice.

I do need to ask a fairly serious question at this point tho' -

"How, exactly, do you get that rig from point A to point B, set it up, do your shoot etc etc without a small truck and a team of helpers?"

The reason I ask is quite valid to your support choice.

I have two 100 mm tripods.

One is my beloved FiberTec's, CF, supports nearly 100 pounds, yada, yada. Maybe 14 pounds weight including head. Say, US$5k.

The other is a set of Manfrotto 528XB's. Steel and alloy, rated to 50 kg (110 pounds) officially but capable of heaps more. 21 pounds + including Vision 3 head. Say, US$800.

Both as close to shooting with the camera bolted to concrete as it's possible to get.

FiberTecs for run and gun? Yep, no problem.

528XB's for run and gun? Get real.

Not only do they weigh a ton, they don't go low, and you need to be an Olympic weight lifter to get 'em to go high.

BUT!

If you don't "do" run 'n gun, which that photo sort of implies, then they are pretty well as rock steady as the FiberTec's and one heck of a lot cheaper.

Similar systems are done by a number of manufacturers and are quite reasonably priced.

Soooo, if finances are tight, you could go Sachtler head etc but go 528XB sticks as an interim solution.

Pretty they ain't, but solid they are.

Whatever you decide however, it's gotta be 100 mm.

There's my 2 cents worth.


CS


PS: Gee that's a nice system.


Drool.

[Chris Soucy]

on my setup, and the reasons for it.

I had a set of Manfrotto 520's (precurser to the 525's) and a 503 head.

The combination was hopeless for HD (IMPO), so decided to upgrade the head to the Vinten Vision 3.

At the same time, and in the same shipment from B&H, I bought the set of 528XB's to park under my somewhat humungous jib system (a job they do exceedingly well).

It did give me the opportunity to compare the 520's against the 528's (not in the same country, let alone ball park) AND the 503 to the V3 (ditto).

Now, if my new head had been almost anything but a Vinten, I would quite possibly have been content to use the 528's for my run n' gun work as they were, with one or two quibbles, stellar.

It was that V 3 head that put a spanner in the works.

I very quickly discovered that Vinten V x series heads are pretty well incompatible with anything non Vinten.

They can be made to mount (but only just) and they do have some angle ajustment (but not a lot).

Overall, less than wonderfull.

A great deal of agonising later (sort of similar to what you're doing), I raided the piggy bank for the FiberTec's.

Glad I did, but is was, indeed, an "ouch" moment in the wallet department.

So, now you know how I know what I know.


CS

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Thanks Chris.

I always believed expressing your thoughts and considerations, so that one can hear (or read it later) himself, and -most importantly - others can read and express their opinion, is the best way to reach the right conclusions, and hence - the optimum decision.

So now that you've seen my rig, you're absolutely right - I'm not even trying to be mobile with it. Some 90% of its use is shooting live music performances. So of course my tripod must be as solid as a rock, but with this weight and size of the whole rig, whether the tripod will add one 1kg more or less is not important at all.

This is why I still am considering the Manfrotto 526, which is 1/2 price of the Sachtler DV 8/100. And of course, it's also 100 mm ball. The only remaining issue is the legs; do you find the 528 really that much better that the more mobile 350, or 515?

Your opinion is very important to me Chris, because you're right: I'm never compromising if there is even the slightest chance to avoid compromising. Let me go back to where we started, and express my dilemma again:

- for the rig as in the picture above, and shooting music (usually multi-camera shots, with my own being the "main" camera, i.e. always on, lots of close-ups, only some panning or tilting,) - should I make every effort possible and buy the Sachtler DV 8/100 on CF sticks, or the Manfrotto 526 (on which legs?), and for the difference in price invest into a really good microphone, for instance?

PS. I fogott about the third possibility that you've mentioned - the DV 8/100 on the 528 sticks...

[Chris Soucy]

That's a hard one or three, but I'll take a stab.

The 515, 350, 528 Big Q.

Without having handled the first two, I can only go on their support ratings.

At 15 kg, 20 kg and 50 kg respectively, the 528's cream 'em quite frankly.

Reinforced by their build weights of 3.5 kg, 4.9 kg and 7.4 kg, giving respective build weight/ support weight ratios of 4.28, 4.08 and 6.75 kilos per kilo.

I think that last figure is due to Manfrotto using steel for a good part of the 528 leg build and not aluminium.

All round, the 528's take the prize (including hernia potential).

At least you don't have to buy a seperate spreader.

With list prices (a la B&H) of $445, $460 & $624, the 528's are a lot of bang for your buck.

I'd say, for your type of shooting, the 528's would be the way to go.

[Oh, BTW, if you get the 114 dolly and park it under the 528's, you get one serious mother of a studio setup].

Now, can I seriously argue you out of the 526?

Nope, and I ain't even going to try.

I honestly believe this combination:

Bogen / Manfrotto | 528XB Tripod w/526 Head | 526,528XBK | B&H

has gotta be one of the best bang per buck setups for your appliction, going.

I think you'd have to spend three times it's asking price to get a better system, and I don't really know how much better it would be.

I say - Go For It!


CS


PS: Ever since posting this, something had been nagging away. Came back this evening and checked, yep, sure enough, the price of the "system" at $2040.95 was significantly more than the individual units total ($624.95 + $1250.00 = $1874.95).

Of course, depends on whether you'd be getting it from B&H, if so, something to point out.

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Chris Soucy

Yep, "no compromise" it is.

Funny thing is, a serious scrute of that photo tells me you don't take any prisoners either.

You're gonna have video wannabees drooling all over their keyboards right across the planet.

====

CS


PS: Gee that's a nice system.

Drool.

I'm NOT a "wannabee" and I'm drooling over that system. Yep, I'd recommend 100mm as well. And a Sherpa guide to help carry everything.

[Paul Chiu]

i looked at your picture and i actually have 3 more items on my DV8/100 than you.
in the front, i have a Zylight90 (led light) with chimera box and fasteners (to the rails) pulling a pair of tekkeon batteries.
a schoeps mike on a telescopic mount.
so the front of my system is rather loaded and the sachtler dv8/100 counterbalances this with room to spare.

this setup as you know is for stage work and not my run and gun. for that, i bring along either a pair of sober hands or a bogen manfrotto 561b monopod with that fantastic ground rotating mechanism

Bogen / Manfrotto | 561B Fluid Video Monopod | 561B | B&H Photo

the above is great for terrains, sports, and kids where it's just the camera (ex1 sized) and a self powered led light or mike.

so piotr, others have confirmed what i will also tell you.
with what you do, 100mm is the minimum and there is reason to go even higher than that, as you have a lot of stuff! 150mm is not out of the question here.

since you are considering legs in the price range of the gitzo gt3530ls, which i sometimes use with my sachtler dv8/100 with the gitzo 100mm ball mount, you have a setup with a lot of height and movement flexibility if you ever needed it and up to 40lbs.

hope you make the best choice for yourself!

paul

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

BTW, looking at my own setup above, I somehow have some doubts whether something as long and heavy can be fixed to the Sachtler DV 8 (or DV 8/100, for that matter) using this proprietary QR plate rather than a full-sized, slide-through one:

sachtler: Fluid heads

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Yes Paul, 100 mm it will be for sure...

Actually, my full setup is also even heavier than the one depicted above; the light in the cold shoe and a (shotgun plus radio receiver) on J-rod (front), plus the PAG 100 Wh battery at the very back end, on the free portion of rails sticking there :)

Today, I had a chance to put the camera alone on the Manfrotto 526; the head feels solid, but it was mounted on the lightweight 515 stick - even with the minimal drag applied, all panning and tilting move the whole tripod! So definitely, if I go for the 526, I need heavier stick (maybe even the heavy-duty 528, as Chris suggests).

But if I go with the Sachtler DV 8/100 on the CF legs, won't the same happen? I mean, with my full rig's over 10 kgs it should be loaded enough to not move the whole tripod when panning/tilting; but when I put the naked camera on it, won't the CF stick be too lightweight?

I AM using the very handy Manfrotto pouch, hanging in the middle of the legs, with some heavy stuff in it - it does stabilize the legs, but still... It looks like with heavy-duty system I need a heavy-duty head, which in turn requires a very heavy tripod...

PS. Incidentally, I'm also using the 561B monopod for those casual shots.