Vinten Vision 3 - should I be able to turn off drag? at DVinfo.net

Alex Wren · January 23rd, 2008, 11:23 AM

I have just taken delivery of a brand new Vinten Vision 3 system (AP2).

I have just stuck my JVC GJHD111 on top and was surprised to find that I cannot seem to turn the drag off completely, especially for the pan control. Does anybody know if this is right? I assumed it would have a zero setting to enable whip pans etc.

The Tilt seems ok when set to zero, the pan seems to have drag. Out of interest the pan drag control can only go up to about 6 before it becomes almost too stiff to move.

Alex

Mike Holland · January 24th, 2008, 04:13 AM

Why not call Vinten service department on 01284 752121 or 01284 757918 and ask for advice? They are usually very helpful.

I have come across different samples of Vision 3 heads varying in performance, but this was several years ago.

Best of luck.

Alex Wren · January 24th, 2008, 11:42 AM

Thanks Mike,

I did just that and they said that the drag on both pan and tilt should be similar. I will test this later (somehow) and see.

They were quite helpful and said that there will never be zero drag, however it should be minimal enough to do whip pans etc.

Alex

Chris Soucy · January 24th, 2008, 02:02 PM

Actually, you can do a "whip pan" even with the drag set @ max, if you so wish.

It's simply a matter of how much grunt you want to apply to the pan bar.

I would seriously suggest you take the time to play a lot more with the head.

I've had mine for about 5 months now and still find new things out about it.

A word about having any of the controls set to minimum tho' - if you do so, the pan bar becomes so sensitive to contact that taking your hand off it and then putting it back on will usually give rise to a distinct and noticeabe "bump" in the image from the camera (not readily seen in SD but magnified many times in HD).

With either of the drags set to "max", it only takes about 2 lbs pressure to initiate movement in the head, a slow pan requiring about 2 kilo (4.4 lbs). With no drag set at all the "initiate" figure is down to ounces.

With a 20X zoom on the camera (if you have one) you'll find anything much less than "max" will make the head way too sensitive for smooth control at maximum zoom in.

CS

Alex Wren · January 24th, 2008, 02:12 PM

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your comments. Interesting to note your thoughts about using max. I do SD mostly but now I have a new laptop might venture into HDV work.

Out of interest do you hang any weights from the hook below or do you have a heavy camera? I think that my camera (JVC HD111) is not heavy enough and even with the speader set at max there is still the danger of lifting one of the legs if you pan too fast (that's on minimum setting).

Do you think this is normal or do I just need to tape a concrete block on top my camera...

Cheer again,

Alex

Chris Soucy · January 24th, 2008, 02:38 PM

As I shoot HDV 50I exclusively, thus making fast pans a complete waste of time, I never do it (the picture just turns to mush).

I do attach weights to the FiberTechs hook as the camera/ tripod/ head weight isn't all that high for the total sail area of same. Not necessary in dead calm conditions but where I mostly shoot, dead calm usually isn't an option.

If you can lift a leg doing a pan with the drag set to minimum, you either have the Pan lock on or there is sommat amiss with the head. The pan lock is a bit of a misnomer 'cause even with mine on as hard as I can get it the head can still be moved.

As I said, even @ max (on my V3) both pan and tilt measure 2 kilos for a slow pan/ tilt (they're almost identical readings).

If you have a set of kitchen scales you can measure this yourself, just remember to zero them for the attitude they're in (lying horizontally for the pan measurement throws the zeroing way out).

CS

Alex Wren · January 25th, 2008, 04:08 AM

Hi again,

I measured the force needed for pans and tilts (set on zero) and got the following results.

Tilt - 400g
Pan - 200g (turned tripod on side so scales remained upright)

How does this compare to yours?

Alex

Chris Soucy · January 25th, 2008, 03:28 PM

I get 200 grams tilt and about 250 pan.

I suspect that your tilt figure was without a camera mounted and properly balanced, thus you were fighting the counterbalance spring.

If that is not the case it does seem a trifle high, tho' as I have no idea what it "should" be I can't say it's unusual.

Whatever, I don't think that in real life, camera up and running, you would find these drag figures a problem.

As I mentioned earlier, these figures aren't high and would allow even a decent breeze to interfere with the camera/ head.

Once you get that zoom going, those settings would be totally unusable.

I was out shooting some surfers (luckily it was a curved beach, so I was practically side on to them without having to get my feet wet) the other day, following their progress to shore @ Z99 (max zoom in) and found I had to wind the drag to the upper stop to keep the head under control.

It's a really strange feeling going from something like a Manfrotto 503 to the Vision 3. With the 503, every little move has to be choreographed down to the last millimetre due to it's inconsistancies.

With the V3, you don't have to do that. Just watch the screen and think "follow the action" and away it goes, wherever you want the lens to point, somehow it's just there. Weird. And wonderfull.

Give the V 3 some time, you'll get the hang.

CS

Peter Ralph · January 25th, 2008, 03:51 PM

surely the amount of pressure required to move the cam is partially dependent on the weight of the camera - both pan and tilt.

Using the vision3 with an XLH1 I rarely go below 3.

I agree with Chris - "away it goes"

Chris Soucy · January 25th, 2008, 05:53 PM

I just measured the tilt pressure against the counterbalance spring with the camera dismounted, so just the bare head and pan bar - 1.2 kilo's (max) against a No. 2 spring (measured at the centre of the foam pan bar covering/ handgrip).

I think that once the mass of the camera has actually been got moving (you can see it requires more pressure to start the movement than continue it) the remaining resistance is just about completely head drag.

Ergo, doing wild acrobatics with the head whilst following the action does take more muscle power due to the changeing direction of the entire mass of head and camera - this is where the "learning" comes in, your brain pretty quickly learns how much pressure to apply, when, to slow a moving head and reverse it's direction in a smooth cadence.

CS

Jaron Berman · January 28th, 2008, 05:08 PM

FYI - the amount of force necessary to whip a modern fluid head like the Vinten is non-linear. It should not "load up" like older designs. When I owned a Vision 3, I found it to whip easily at any drag setting. There is a fluid bypass inside the head that senses high instantaneous loads (whips) and allows you to make the move quickly then settle back to the initial drag when you land. That is why a lot of people (myself included) LOVE the Visions for small camera work - very smooth and precise with progressive fluid loading.

Will it lift a leg? Perhaps. I always step on the legs and when possible try to hold a hand on the casting when using light cameras. You certainly won't hurt anything by sand bagging the legs or hanging some extra weight from the casting though.

January 23rd, 2008, 11:23 AM	#1
Alex Wren Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 161	Vinten Vision 3 - should I be able to turn off drag? I have just taken delivery of a brand new Vinten Vision 3 system (AP2). I have just stuck my JVC GJHD111 on top and was surprised to find that I cannot seem to turn the drag off completely, especially for the pan control. Does anybody know if this is right? I assumed it would have a zero setting to enable whip pans etc. The Tilt seems ok when set to zero, the pan seems to have drag. Out of interest the pan drag control can only go up to about 6 before it becomes almost too stiff to move. Alex

January 24th, 2008, 04:13 AM	#2
Mike Holland Tourist Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 4	Vision 3 Why not call Vinten service department on 01284 752121 or 01284 757918 and ask for advice? They are usually very helpful. I have come across different samples of Vision 3 heads varying in performance, but this was several years ago. Best of luck.

January 24th, 2008, 02:02 PM	#4
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,689 Images: 18	Hi Alex................. Actually, you can do a "whip pan" even with the drag set @ max, if you so wish. It's simply a matter of how much grunt you want to apply to the pan bar. I would seriously suggest you take the time to play a lot more with the head. I've had mine for about 5 months now and still find new things out about it. A word about having any of the controls set to minimum tho' - if you do so, the pan bar becomes so sensitive to contact that taking your hand off it and then putting it back on will usually give rise to a distinct and noticeabe "bump" in the image from the camera (not readily seen in SD but magnified many times in HD). With either of the drags set to "max", it only takes about 2 lbs pressure to initiate movement in the head, a slow pan requiring about 2 kilo (4.4 lbs). With no drag set at all the "initiate" figure is down to ounces. With a 20X zoom on the camera (if you have one) you'll find anything much less than "max" will make the head way too sensitive for smooth control at maximum zoom in. CS

January 24th, 2008, 02:38 PM	#6
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,689 Images: 18	Hi......... As I shoot HDV 50I exclusively, thus making fast pans a complete waste of time, I never do it (the picture just turns to mush). I do attach weights to the FiberTechs hook as the camera/ tripod/ head weight isn't all that high for the total sail area of same. Not necessary in dead calm conditions but where I mostly shoot, dead calm usually isn't an option. If you can lift a leg doing a pan with the drag set to minimum, you either have the Pan lock on or there is sommat amiss with the head. The pan lock is a bit of a misnomer 'cause even with mine on as hard as I can get it the head can still be moved. As I said, even @ max (on my V3) both pan and tilt measure 2 kilos for a slow pan/ tilt (they're almost identical readings). If you have a set of kitchen scales you can measure this yourself, just remember to zero them for the attitude they're in (lying horizontally for the pan measurement throws the zeroing way out). CS

January 25th, 2008, 03:28 PM	#8
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,689 Images: 18	Hi Alex.............. I get 200 grams tilt and about 250 pan. I suspect that your tilt figure was without a camera mounted and properly balanced, thus you were fighting the counterbalance spring. If that is not the case it does seem a trifle high, tho' as I have no idea what it "should" be I can't say it's unusual. Whatever, I don't think that in real life, camera up and running, you would find these drag figures a problem. As I mentioned earlier, these figures aren't high and would allow even a decent breeze to interfere with the camera/ head. Once you get that zoom going, those settings would be totally unusable. I was out shooting some surfers (luckily it was a curved beach, so I was practically side on to them without having to get my feet wet) the other day, following their progress to shore @ Z99 (max zoom in) and found I had to wind the drag to the upper stop to keep the head under control. It's a really strange feeling going from something like a Manfrotto 503 to the Vision 3. With the 503, every little move has to be choreographed down to the last millimetre due to it's inconsistancies. With the V3, you don't have to do that. Just watch the screen and think "follow the action" and away it goes, wherever you want the lens to point, somehow it's just there. Weird. And wonderfull. Give the V 3 some time, you'll get the hang. CS

January 24th, 2008, 11:42 AM	#3
Alex Wren Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 161	Thanks Mike, I did just that and they said that the drag on both pan and tilt should be similar. I will test this later (somehow) and see. They were quite helpful and said that there will never be zero drag, however it should be minimal enough to do whip pans etc. Alex

January 24th, 2008, 02:12 PM	#5
Alex Wren Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 161	Hi Chris, Thanks for your comments. Interesting to note your thoughts about using max. I do SD mostly but now I have a new laptop might venture into HDV work. Out of interest do you hang any weights from the hook below or do you have a heavy camera? I think that my camera (JVC HD111) is not heavy enough and even with the speader set at max there is still the danger of lifting one of the legs if you pan too fast (that's on minimum setting). Do you think this is normal or do I just need to tape a concrete block on top my camera... Cheer again, Alex

January 25th, 2008, 04:08 AM	#7
Alex Wren Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: UK Posts: 161	Hi again, I measured the force needed for pans and tilts (set on zero) and got the following results. Tilt - 400g Pan - 200g (turned tripod on side so scales remained upright) How does this compare to yours? Alex

January 25th, 2008, 03:51 PM	#9
Peter Ralph Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Denver/Vail Colorado Posts: 254	surely the amount of pressure required to move the cam is partially dependent on the weight of the camera - both pan and tilt. Using the vision3 with an XLH1 I rarely go below 3. I agree with Chris - "away it goes"

January 25th, 2008, 05:53 PM	#10
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,689 Images: 18	Hi Peter........... I just measured the tilt pressure against the counterbalance spring with the camera dismounted, so just the bare head and pan bar - 1.2 kilo's (max) against a No. 2 spring (measured at the centre of the foam pan bar covering/ handgrip). I think that once the mass of the camera has actually been got moving (you can see it requires more pressure to start the movement than continue it) the remaining resistance is just about completely head drag. Ergo, doing wild acrobatics with the head whilst following the action does take more muscle power due to the changeing direction of the entire mass of head and camera - this is where the "learning" comes in, your brain pretty quickly learns how much pressure to apply, when, to slow a moving head and reverse it's direction in a smooth cadence. CS

January 28th, 2008, 05:08 PM	#11
Jaron Berman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 439	FYI - the amount of force necessary to whip a modern fluid head like the Vinten is non-linear. It should not "load up" like older designs. When I owned a Vision 3, I found it to whip easily at any drag setting. There is a fluid bypass inside the head that senses high instantaneous loads (whips) and allows you to make the move quickly then settle back to the initial drag when you land. That is why a lot of people (myself included) LOVE the Visions for small camera work - very smooth and precise with progressive fluid loading. Will it lift a leg? Perhaps. I always step on the legs and when possible try to hold a hand on the casting when using light cameras. You certainly won't hurt anything by sand bagging the legs or hanging some extra weight from the casting though.