good set of legs at DVinfo.net

Spencer Dickson · January 18th, 2008, 11:06 PM

Hi. I just ordered an EX1 and I don't have enough money to buy a $2000 fluid head, but I may buy a good set of legs and a cheap head for the time being, a and then get a Satchler. What would be a good set of legs for the EX1 that I could put, say, a Satchler head on? I know there are many to choose from, so this may be a very open-ended question.

Michael Richard · January 19th, 2008, 08:21 AM

Miller Solo DV, I think these are a great choice, just ordered some.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=*&bhs=t

Ronny Hofsoy · January 19th, 2008, 08:30 AM

This product has been in my wish list for som time, many good reports in regards to price/value.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...od_System.html

Chris Soucy · January 19th, 2008, 01:45 PM

Spencer,

If you want a set of sticks for a full HD camera that won't, in pretty short order, have you pulling your hair out, you'd be better off looking at something like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Fibertec.html

Michael, Ronny,

The sticks posted are, no doubt, good value for money and probably quite capable for a consumer level SD cam. For HD however, IMHO, they are about as usefull as an ash tray on a bicyce.

The Millers, in particular, due to their single tube, spreaderless design, are inclined to "wind up" with even the slightest amount of drag on the head. Just about "get away - able" wth SD but lethal on a big HD screen.

The EX1 is a full blown HD camera, not a consumer toy. The Libec's proclaim "consumer" all over the sales blurb (loudly). They are not, again IMHO, suitable for HD system work.

Don't get me wrong, you can use them, and everything will probably look fine on your computer monitor. Then, gradually, as you see more and more of your hard got footage on a big (46" +) screen you'll heave a huge sigh and wonder why, oh why, did I buy those sticks?

There's just no getting away from this:

If your support system isn't about the same cost as the camera it's supporting, then it probably isn't going to cut the mustard up there on the big screen.

The cost of HD cameras may well have dropped to the point where they are "top end consumer". The cost of the necessary support systems hasn't and probably won't any time soon.

CS

Ronny Hofsoy · January 19th, 2008, 04:04 PM

Totally agree Chris.

Rereading the initial post I suddenly observed that I had overseen a small detail, where Spencer said he would by GOOD sticks - and a CHEAP head.. LOL... I beleived both to be 'cheap' as in temporary until funding for a Sachtler was in place...

Sorry for the 'fumbling' from my part...

Chris Soucy · January 19th, 2008, 04:44 PM

That's cool.

CS

Spencer Dickson · January 19th, 2008, 08:35 PM

I want to get a pro tripod head, but alas, don't have the funds. My idea was to get a quality set of legs and put a cheap head on and use that until I can replace it with a good FH. It would not work for pans, but at least I would have a stable, safe tripod holding my camera. I don't do a lot of panning anyway, so a fluid head is not that important yet. I just didn't want my camera sitting on a crappy 80 dollar tripod that can tip over with a gust of wind. So, if I spend around $2000 I can get a good set of sticks. How much will I have to spend for a good head?

Chris Soucy · January 19th, 2008, 10:20 PM

Reckon for an EX1, you'd get away with a Vinten Vision 3 ($1000 - ish), but there are some very tasty looking Satchlers and Millers out there as well.

Somebody posted about a Satchler not long ago here and I checked it out, gave me the "I wants" in no uncertain fashion, tho' I think it would run to closer to $2000 (it did have continuously variable counterbalance tho' which would be a godsend after the V3 that I have).

Don't get me wrong, if you don't change your camera config much and can get that counterbalance "sweet spot" working in one of the V 3's spring ranges, you're good to go. And it's a damn good head for the money.

I actually think you're doing a very sensible thing, Spencer.

The sticks are the foundation of any support system. If they're crap then everything else is useless.

If you can afford to pony up for a set of FiberTec's, you have a set of sticks that will perform for absolutely any camera you can throw at them, for the rest of your natural, and then some.

Heck, you could even just stick a second hand Manfrotto 503 on 'em (this is not a recomendation, just an observation) and ameliorate some of the 503's worst habits simply because the sticks will not wind up, wobble, or anything else, no matter what the head tries to do.

To take some of the pain out of parting with such a large amount of cash, you could (temporarily) forsake the SpreadLoc mid level spreader and go for a cheap set of Manfrotto floor spreaders, tho' they will wear thin (in a patience sense) in pretty short order, as all floor spreaders do.

Let us know how you go.

CS

Michael Richard · January 20th, 2008, 09:55 AM

somehow fibertec legs (rated for 99lbs) on my Canon XHA1 seem like overkill.

They (Miller's) sure seem to work for this guy.

http://www.millertripods.com/inthefi...ec=5011&ID=111

Chris Soucy · January 20th, 2008, 03:12 PM

Yes, I'm aware of this article, I went through the entire Miller site (and many others) with a fine tooth comb whilst researching for my new sticks.

I did seriously give thought to these (and the VJ's) untill I read the reports from people who had them under either HD cameras or long lens systems.

The concensus that I took from those reports was that those single tube legs, with no spreader, whilst being a delight to carry and set up, had more wind up than a cheap rubber band, with commensurate amounts of backlash to kick your butt afterwards.

As I was (and am) already the less than proud owner of a set of sticks to which the above applies (and had got fed up to the back teeth with) I decided that adding yet another set to my collection, afflicted with the same curse, would not be "a good thing".

However, as you've just bought/ ordered a set of the Millers, it seems churlish to belabour the point. They wouldn't have worked for me, they may work for you.

Having looked (on line) at just about every set of sticks from all the top names over a period of many months, read the reviews (what there were), crunched the numbers, not had any opportunity to "try before I buy" and realising this purchase was going to be a "once off, no action replay allowed" and that I had thus better get it 100% right first time around - I plumped for the only set of sticks that guaranteed to do what I wanted, no questions asked, no matter what I threw at them, where and when etc etc - the FiberTec's.

I am very pleased to say that they have not only met but exceeded my expectations by a large margin. They are utterly imoveable. They have no/ none/ zero wind up. They have ditto backlash. You can put a hand on the receiver and lean on them and they will not flex sideways. Grab the pan bar and yank to stop yourself being blown flat by a gust of wind - they do not move a mm. In short - bomb proof.

Could I have got that with a lesser set of sticks? Perhaps, but it could also have been the biggest dissapointment of my life, and a very expensive mistake to boot. Not a gamble I was prepared to take.

Are the FiberTec's expensive? Oooooh yeah!

Will they last for the term of my natural? Yep.

Take any head/ camera/ lens system I (or anybody else) could possibly conjure up in our wildest dreams? Yep.

Leap tall buildings in a single bound? Er, hang on, I'll ask.

Enjoy your Millers.

CS

PS. Sorry if this is raining on your parade, Michael, but it's comments like this that tell the Miller story..........

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=110414

Too late to change that order?

Spencer Dickson · January 20th, 2008, 10:59 PM

After spending months researching which camera to buy, I am tired of comparing gear. I'll just get the best sticks I can buy and go from there. Which set of FiberTecs do you recommend Chris?

Chris Soucy · January 21st, 2008, 03:45 AM

You mean you don't know?

I'm mortified.

Shocked!

Staggered!

Ok, ok, enough of the thrupenny tabloid bullshit.

There is ONLY one FiberTec. It is THE FiberTec. There is no other.

It's not that I'm playing games here - there is only one set of FiberTec's on the market. As far as I'm aware, there has never been another variety, model or anything else.

This is they:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Fibertec.html

I know from the depths of my soul what "techno burnout" is like when you're trying to get gear together.

I spent nearly 3 (yes, that's three) years putting my current system together, and there were times when I wondered whether a trip to the shrink may have been in order, owing to definately losing the plot (I hadn't, it was just that others couldn't see what I was trying to achieve).

But hey, I got there.

Funny thing is, those "others" are now looking at my setup with distinctly covetous eyes, and I can see the envy there. Tough!

It's mine, all mine! (maniacle cackle stifled, in the interests of the children present!)

Anyway,

Good luck.

Keep us posted as to how you go, whatever it is you decide.

We'll be really interested in how this pans out.

Regards,

CS

Michael Wisniewski · January 21st, 2008, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Richard

somehow fibertec legs (rated for 99lbs) on my Canon XHA1 seem like overkill.

The Miller Solos work great with the XH A1 - especially with a Vinten Vision 3. I think Chris is talking about a full HD camera which is causing the "wind up" problem. But after using my setup for several months now, I can say it's a rock solid platform for the XH A1 even with whip pans - assuming standard safety pre-cautions.

Thanks to Jaron Berman, I have two of these setups: Miller Solo DV Aluminum, Vinten Vision 3, XH A1

Michael Wisniewski · January 21st, 2008, 09:11 PM

One caveat though, I don't do a lot of pans at full telephoto, so there may be a different story there. Nonetheless it's a great system for the XH A1 under everyday working conditions.

Chris Soucy · January 22nd, 2008, 01:48 AM

I agree with everything you wrote.

There is no doubt about it, the Millers are a great (looking) set of sticks and a wonderfull innovation (shame we don't see more).

My comments regarding them do indeed relate to full HD or long lens (ergo, big zoom factors) work and I do not think can be disputed (unless the posters of those negative comments I have read decide to recant their opinions).

In my case, the fact that there was this issue was not acceptable and the reason they were dropped from my list of possibles.

My greater point was this - in the next year, or two or three, whomever buys a set of those sticks now (this is aimed at amateurs BTW, not someone earning a living from them) may well find that the next generation cameras have 25 X zooms or bigger, in which case you can forget it. They simply will not perform.

If you don't use long lenses or HD or both, no problem.

Your reference to "whip pan" makes me thing you're shooting SD, would that be correct?

If so, you would be hard pressed to see the artifacts that I see in HD with support movement. If you are indeed shooting HD (but downrezzing to SD) it may not be visible in that either.

I shoot HD for HD - nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Thanks for your input Michael.

CS

January 18th, 2008, 11:06 PM	#1
Spencer Dickson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 141	good set of legs Hi. I just ordered an EX1 and I don't have enough money to buy a $2000 fluid head, but I may buy a good set of legs and a cheap head for the time being, a and then get a Satchler. What would be a good set of legs for the EX1 that I could put, say, a Satchler head on? I know there are many to choose from, so this may be a very open-ended question.

January 19th, 2008, 01:45 PM	#4
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi guys............. Spencer, If you want a set of sticks for a full HD camera that won't, in pretty short order, have you pulling your hair out, you'd be better off looking at something like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Fibertec.html Michael, Ronny, The sticks posted are, no doubt, good value for money and probably quite capable for a consumer level SD cam. For HD however, IMHO, they are about as usefull as an ash tray on a bicyce. The Millers, in particular, due to their single tube, spreaderless design, are inclined to "wind up" with even the slightest amount of drag on the head. Just about "get away - able" wth SD but lethal on a big HD screen. The EX1 is a full blown HD camera, not a consumer toy. The Libec's proclaim "consumer" all over the sales blurb (loudly). They are not, again IMHO, suitable for HD system work. Don't get me wrong, you can use them, and everything will probably look fine on your computer monitor. Then, gradually, as you see more and more of your hard got footage on a big (46" +) screen you'll heave a huge sigh and wonder why, oh why, did I buy those sticks? There's just no getting away from this: If your support system isn't about the same cost as the camera it's supporting, then it probably isn't going to cut the mustard up there on the big screen. The cost of HD cameras may well have dropped to the point where they are "top end consumer". The cost of the necessary support systems hasn't and probably won't any time soon. CS

January 19th, 2008, 04:44 PM	#6
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi Ronny....... That's cool. CS

January 19th, 2008, 10:20 PM	#8
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi Spencer............ Reckon for an EX1, you'd get away with a Vinten Vision 3 ($1000 - ish), but there are some very tasty looking Satchlers and Millers out there as well. Somebody posted about a Satchler not long ago here and I checked it out, gave me the "I wants" in no uncertain fashion, tho' I think it would run to closer to $2000 (it did have continuously variable counterbalance tho' which would be a godsend after the V3 that I have). Don't get me wrong, if you don't change your camera config much and can get that counterbalance "sweet spot" working in one of the V 3's spring ranges, you're good to go. And it's a damn good head for the money. I actually think you're doing a very sensible thing, Spencer. The sticks are the foundation of any support system. If they're crap then everything else is useless. If you can afford to pony up for a set of FiberTec's, you have a set of sticks that will perform for absolutely any camera you can throw at them, for the rest of your natural, and then some. Heck, you could even just stick a second hand Manfrotto 503 on 'em (this is not a recomendation, just an observation) and ameliorate some of the 503's worst habits simply because the sticks will not wind up, wobble, or anything else, no matter what the head tries to do. To take some of the pain out of parting with such a large amount of cash, you could (temporarily) forsake the SpreadLoc mid level spreader and go for a cheap set of Manfrotto floor spreaders, tho' they will wear thin (in a patience sense) in pretty short order, as all floor spreaders do. Let us know how you go. CS

January 20th, 2008, 03:12 PM	#10
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi Michael............. Yes, I'm aware of this article, I went through the entire Miller site (and many others) with a fine tooth comb whilst researching for my new sticks. I did seriously give thought to these (and the VJ's) untill I read the reports from people who had them under either HD cameras or long lens systems. The concensus that I took from those reports was that those single tube legs, with no spreader, whilst being a delight to carry and set up, had more wind up than a cheap rubber band, with commensurate amounts of backlash to kick your butt afterwards. As I was (and am) already the less than proud owner of a set of sticks to which the above applies (and had got fed up to the back teeth with) I decided that adding yet another set to my collection, afflicted with the same curse, would not be "a good thing". However, as you've just bought/ ordered a set of the Millers, it seems churlish to belabour the point. They wouldn't have worked for me, they may work for you. Having looked (on line) at just about every set of sticks from all the top names over a period of many months, read the reviews (what there were), crunched the numbers, not had any opportunity to "try before I buy" and realising this purchase was going to be a "once off, no action replay allowed" and that I had thus better get it 100% right first time around - I plumped for the only set of sticks that guaranteed to do what I wanted, no questions asked, no matter what I threw at them, where and when etc etc - the FiberTec's. I am very pleased to say that they have not only met but exceeded my expectations by a large margin. They are utterly imoveable. They have no/ none/ zero wind up. They have ditto backlash. You can put a hand on the receiver and lean on them and they will not flex sideways. Grab the pan bar and yank to stop yourself being blown flat by a gust of wind - they do not move a mm. In short - bomb proof. Could I have got that with a lesser set of sticks? Perhaps, but it could also have been the biggest dissapointment of my life, and a very expensive mistake to boot. Not a gamble I was prepared to take. Are the FiberTec's expensive? Oooooh yeah! Will they last for the term of my natural? Yep. Take any head/ camera/ lens system I (or anybody else) could possibly conjure up in our wildest dreams? Yep. Leap tall buildings in a single bound? Er, hang on, I'll ask. Enjoy your Millers. CS PS. Sorry if this is raining on your parade, Michael, but it's comments like this that tell the Miller story.......... http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=110414 Too late to change that order? Last edited by Chris Soucy; January 20th, 2008 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Addition

January 19th, 2008, 08:21 AM	#2
Michael Richard Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Midcoast, Maine Posts: 89	Miller Solo DV, I think these are a great choice, just ordered some. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=*&bhs=t

January 19th, 2008, 08:30 AM	#3
Ronny Hofsoy Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tromsoe Norway Posts: 28	This product has been in my wish list for som time, many good reports in regards to price/value. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...od_System.html

January 19th, 2008, 04:04 PM	#5
Ronny Hofsoy Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tromsoe Norway Posts: 28	Totally agree Chris. Rereading the initial post I suddenly observed that I had overseen a small detail, where Spencer said he would by GOOD sticks - and a CHEAP head.. LOL... I beleived both to be 'cheap' as in temporary until funding for a Sachtler was in place... Sorry for the 'fumbling' from my part...

January 19th, 2008, 08:35 PM	#7
Spencer Dickson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 141	I want to get a pro tripod head, but alas, don't have the funds. My idea was to get a quality set of legs and put a cheap head on and use that until I can replace it with a good FH. It would not work for pans, but at least I would have a stable, safe tripod holding my camera. I don't do a lot of panning anyway, so a fluid head is not that important yet. I just didn't want my camera sitting on a crappy 80 dollar tripod that can tip over with a gust of wind. So, if I spend around $2000 I can get a good set of sticks. How much will I have to spend for a good head?

January 20th, 2008, 09:55 AM	#9
Michael Richard Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Midcoast, Maine Posts: 89	somehow fibertec legs (rated for 99lbs) on my Canon XHA1 seem like overkill. They (Miller's) sure seem to work for this guy. http://www.millertripods.com/inthefi...ec=5011&ID=111

January 20th, 2008, 10:59 PM	#11
Spencer Dickson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 141	After spending months researching which camera to buy, I am tired of comparing gear. I'll just get the best sticks I can buy and go from there. Which set of FiberTecs do you recommend Chris?

January 21st, 2008, 03:45 AM	#12
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Which? You mean you don't know? I'm mortified. Shocked! Staggered! Ok, ok, enough of the thrupenny tabloid bullshit. There is ONLY one FiberTec. It is THE FiberTec. There is no other. It's not that I'm playing games here - there is only one set of FiberTec's on the market. As far as I'm aware, there has never been another variety, model or anything else. This is they: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Fibertec.html I know from the depths of my soul what "techno burnout" is like when you're trying to get gear together. I spent nearly 3 (yes, that's three) years putting my current system together, and there were times when I wondered whether a trip to the shrink may have been in order, owing to definately losing the plot (I hadn't, it was just that others couldn't see what I was trying to achieve). But hey, I got there. Funny thing is, those "others" are now looking at my setup with distinctly covetous eyes, and I can see the envy there. Tough! It's mine, all mine! (maniacle cackle stifled, in the interests of the children present!) Anyway, Good luck. Keep us posted as to how you go, whatever it is you decide. We'll be really interested in how this pans out. Regards, CS

January 21st, 2008, 09:11 PM	#14
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	One caveat though, I don't do a lot of pans at full telephoto, so there may be a different story there. Nonetheless it's a great system for the XH A1 under everyday working conditions. __________________ "Ultimately, the most extraordinary thing, in a frame, is a human being." - Martin Scorsese

January 22nd, 2008, 01:48 AM	#15
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi Michael............... I agree with everything you wrote. There is no doubt about it, the Millers are a great (looking) set of sticks and a wonderfull innovation (shame we don't see more). My comments regarding them do indeed relate to full HD or long lens (ergo, big zoom factors) work and I do not think can be disputed (unless the posters of those negative comments I have read decide to recant their opinions). In my case, the fact that there was this issue was not acceptable and the reason they were dropped from my list of possibles. My greater point was this - in the next year, or two or three, whomever buys a set of those sticks now (this is aimed at amateurs BTW, not someone earning a living from them) may well find that the next generation cameras have 25 X zooms or bigger, in which case you can forget it. They simply will not perform. If you don't use long lenses or HD or both, no problem. Your reference to "whip pan" makes me thing you're shooting SD, would that be correct? If so, you would be hard pressed to see the artifacts that I see in HD with support movement. If you are indeed shooting HD (but downrezzing to SD) it may not be visible in that either. I shoot HD for HD - nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Thanks for your input Michael. CS