A film question at DVinfo.net

Mitch Buss · September 14th, 2006, 06:06 PM

I have a Bell and Howell 2585 projector. This model plays sound on the film. I have some regular 16mm film that I tried to run through it and the projection is all of. I read that it only projects at sound speed, so is that different than 24fps? Is there another reason why this film is not playing. Please help me with this. Thanks.

Mitch

Don Donatello · September 15th, 2006, 10:03 AM

i don't remember models - been a long time since i had to string up a 16mm

a projector doesn't know what kind of film is loaded on it so sound or silent makes no difference to it ...
24fps is sound ... 16/18 is silent .. many times these projectors had a button on top or back to engage for 16/18fps ...

there were some projectors that if you had a section too loose ( not enough tension) the projector will stop running .. on some it was a small little lever that rode the film or they had some mechanism in gate area - so if the film broke it would not run ...

also when you lift up the feed and take up arms for the reels .. usually the rea take up arm has 2 settings the lower is for viewing the film and lifting it up higher is for rewind ... if you put it in rewind position with the film running thru the projector gate it may not run ..

Richard Alvarez · September 15th, 2006, 10:23 AM

I assume you meant to type "The projection is all OFF".

What does this mean? The film will not advance? The film comes off the sprockets? The film plays at the incorrect speed? The film 'judders and skips' in the gate? The frameline is visible in projection?

More information pleasea as to what you are referring to.

Mitch Buss · September 15th, 2006, 11:09 AM

The film does advance and it doesn't come off the sprokets, but the image flickers and nothing is clearly visible. It is not a framer issue or anything, I've tried that, It seems that something is running at the wrong speed. I know the film works because I ran it through a different projector and it was fine, I just do not know. Does that help?

Mitch Buss · September 15th, 2006, 11:13 AM

Here is a link to a page with the projector info...

http://www.film-center.com/bh2585.html

Richard Alvarez · September 15th, 2006, 12:55 PM

"but the image flickers and nothing is clearly visible."

Hmm, hard to diagnose without really seeing what it is you are describing. BUT if I had to take a wild guess... I'll break your statement down into the two seperate symptoms you describe.

"The image flickers" - Could mean that the film is not being held tightly in the gate. OR it could mean the pull down claw is not engaging properly.

"And nothing is clearly visible" - The lens isn't focused? The light is burned out? Not clear what you mean by this. It's also possible that the shutter is either BROKEN or MISSING or OUT OF SYNCH.

Understand, that each frame of the film is pulled down into the gate, and held inplace for 1/24th of a second. (Yes, twenty four frames are moving through the gate every second) DURING THAT ONE SECOND, there is a shutter, that resembles a fan blade, behind the gate and in front of the bulb, THAT IS SPINNING . This shutter has three blades on it, so that light passes through the frame THREE TIMES in that 1/24th of a second.

IF the shutter is broken, missing or mis-timed, the images will not show up OR be unclear.

In other words, it sounds like you have a broken projector.

Mitch Buss · September 15th, 2006, 06:28 PM

The image I was seeing was as if the frames were seperated and not one continous image. I know that the claw is working. The lamp works and the projector is in focus. Does that help any more?

Richard Alvarez · September 15th, 2006, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Buss

The image I was seeing was as if the frames were seperated and not one continous image. I know that the claw is working. The lamp works and the projector is in focus. Does that help any more?

Uh... no. I have no idea what you are describing. Do you mean that you see the framelines moving down the screen? Like the image is rolling on a tv set? That the image is not stable?

IF that's the case, then the pulldown claw is DEFINATELY NOT WORKING. The sprokets above and below the film gate advance the film through the entire projector. But the pulldown claw pulls the frame into place, AND THEN HOLDS IT STILL, while the image is being projected. If the images are just pouring through the gate, then the claw is not 'registering' the frame, and you just get the images running past the gate non-stop. Literally NOT STOPPING so that the shutter can rotate.

Is the pressure plate holding the film tight against the gate?

If so, then like I said, You have a broken projector.

Mitch Buss · September 16th, 2006, 10:12 AM

I apologize for mot being able to describe what it looks like, but what you said sounds accurate. Do you have any ideas on fixing. I know I'm asking a lot, but I REALLY do not want to get another projector, this one I got for free and it is really nice. Thanks again for all of your help.

Richard Alvarez · September 16th, 2006, 12:42 PM

Gosh Mitch.

Can you fix a sewing machine by milling new parts?

A projector is very much like a sewing machine in that it has very finely machined parts that move at VERY high speeds to very critical tolerances.

Sorry, but I can't possibly begin to suggest how to repair the machine, not knowing what is actually wrong with it. How much is your time worth to you? Minimum wage? Then you are better off looking for a new WORKING projector. If this one was free, then it was worth what you paid for it. They are not hard to find on ebay, your local school will probably be glad to sell you one. 16mm film projectors are like old shoes in thrift stores. Seriously, You can probably pick one up for less than fifty bucks.

As always with used equipment TRY BEFORE YOU BUY.

Mitch Buss · September 16th, 2006, 01:14 PM

I finally figured out the problem. It has the autoload function and if you try to project with it still on auto load, the claw is not engaged. It does project now, however, I have another issue. The take up reel is spinning too fast and is pulling on the film as it is coming out of the projector. Is there a way to slow this down? Thank you very much for being patient with me on this.

Richard Alvarez · September 16th, 2006, 01:43 PM

Make sure the take up real is in the proper position. That is, NOT in rewind position. It should have two positions... take up, and rewind. Rewind is generally the 'higher' position and take up is the 'lower' position.

Mitch Buss · September 17th, 2006, 04:53 PM

It is in the correct position for take-up, it is just spinning too fast. Any other solutions? Thanks again for all the time you have spent with helping me Richard. I aapreciate it.

Richard Alvarez · September 17th, 2006, 07:14 PM

Mitch. I don't know what to tell you. It's like performing surgery through email. I don't know what your problem is.

Based on your 'discovery' that you had not actually moved the switch from 'Thread' to 'run' in the first place, I can't begin to guess what you might be doing wrong now. Did you read the instructions that are normally printed inside the cover of the projector?

The take-up real is designed to tension the film. NOT to pull it through the projector. The film drive sprockets move the film in front of the gate... There must be a 'loop' on top of the gate, that allows for continuous movemt of the film in the sprocket, even as the pull down places the frame in the proper registration and holds it there, the sprokets past the gate move the film forward to the take up reel. The take up reel is on a tension spring... because the 'diameter' of the film spool will change as the film spools onto the reel, it's not engaged with a sprocket, but rather a tension spring or belt. This allows the speed of the reel to alter as the reel fills up.

You say the reel is 'pulling the film too fast'. That's not really possible, I'm sorry to say. So your description of the problem leaves me stumped. Mu guess is that you have 'lost the loops' ahead and behind the gate. In that case, the film will be 'pulled' by the sprockets, while it is being held stationary in the gate.

Make sure you have a loop ahead and behind the gate. (That means 'above' and 'below' as you look at the pressure gate.)

Barring that - I suggest you go into the nearest high school, and ask to speak to an AV geek. IF you can't find one in a high school, go ask any fifty year old friend of yours who WAS an AV geek in High School to come thread your projector.

Here's a few links that might help.

http://www.paulivester.com/films/projector/BHmanual.htm

The above is a link to Bell and Howell manuals

and this

http://www.archive.org/details/Threadin1950

Is an actual movie of threading a 16mm projector. It's an RCA unfortunately, but the principle is similar

Google is your friend... use it.

My work here is done.

Mike Teutsch · September 18th, 2006, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch Buss

It is in the correct position for take-up, it is just spinning too fast. Any other solutions? Thanks again for all the time you have spent with helping me Richard. I aapreciate it.

While I'm am not expert by any means, I do remember running projectors many many years ago, school and ran the army post theater in Germany. The take up reel is supposed to run faster then the film it is taking up, so there is never any slack. By no means should it pull the film through the projector though, as the reel is ment to slip when necessary. Remember watching movies in school and when it finished the take-up reel would speed up as the film ran out and beat the end of the strip against the projector?

The flickering image problem sounds like an issue with proper threading. Check your diagrams and charts or whatever have. Prior to passing the lens there is an area that must have a proper sized loop. This loop maintains slack in order for the claw or whatever to be able to advance the film smoothly and not meet resistance. If the loop is wrong or not there, you will get the image problem you mentioned, flickering.

Hope that this helps in some way.

From my roadtrip, right now in Nebraska------Mike

PS: What Richard said!

Mike

September 14th, 2006, 06:06 PM	#1
Mitch Buss Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 184	A film question I have a Bell and Howell 2585 projector. This model plays sound on the film. I have some regular 16mm film that I tried to run through it and the projection is all of. I read that it only projects at sound speed, so is that different than 24fps? Is there another reason why this film is not playing. Please help me with this. Thanks. Mitch

September 15th, 2006, 10:03 AM	#2
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	i don't remember models - been a long time since i had to string up a 16mm a projector doesn't know what kind of film is loaded on it so sound or silent makes no difference to it ... 24fps is sound ... 16/18 is silent .. many times these projectors had a button on top or back to engage for 16/18fps ... there were some projectors that if you had a section too loose ( not enough tension) the projector will stop running .. on some it was a small little lever that rode the film or they had some mechanism in gate area - so if the film broke it would not run ... also when you lift up the feed and take up arms for the reels .. usually the rea take up arm has 2 settings the lower is for viewing the film and lifting it up higher is for rewind ... if you put it in rewind position with the film running thru the projector gate it may not run ..

September 15th, 2006, 10:23 AM	#3
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I assume you meant to type "The projection is all OFF". What does this mean? The film will not advance? The film comes off the sprockets? The film plays at the incorrect speed? The film 'judders and skips' in the gate? The frameline is visible in projection? More information pleasea as to what you are referring to.

September 15th, 2006, 11:09 AM	#4
Mitch Buss Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 184	The film does advance and it doesn't come off the sprokets, but the image flickers and nothing is clearly visible. It is not a framer issue or anything, I've tried that, It seems that something is running at the wrong speed. I know the film works because I ran it through a different projector and it was fine, I just do not know. Does that help?

September 15th, 2006, 11:13 AM	#5
Mitch Buss Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 184	Here is a link to a page with the projector info... http://www.film-center.com/bh2585.html

September 15th, 2006, 12:55 PM	#6
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	"but the image flickers and nothing is clearly visible." Hmm, hard to diagnose without really seeing what it is you are describing. BUT if I had to take a wild guess... I'll break your statement down into the two seperate symptoms you describe. "The image flickers" - Could mean that the film is not being held tightly in the gate. OR it could mean the pull down claw is not engaging properly. "And nothing is clearly visible" - The lens isn't focused? The light is burned out? Not clear what you mean by this. It's also possible that the shutter is either BROKEN or MISSING or OUT OF SYNCH. Understand, that each frame of the film is pulled down into the gate, and held inplace for 1/24th of a second. (Yes, twenty four frames are moving through the gate every second) DURING THAT ONE SECOND, there is a shutter, that resembles a fan blade, behind the gate and in front of the bulb, THAT IS SPINNING . This shutter has three blades on it, so that light passes through the frame THREE TIMES in that 1/24th of a second. IF the shutter is broken, missing or mis-timed, the images will not show up OR be unclear. In other words, it sounds like you have a broken projector.

September 15th, 2006, 06:28 PM	#7
Mitch Buss Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 184	The image I was seeing was as if the frames were seperated and not one continous image. I know that the claw is working. The lamp works and the projector is in focus. Does that help any more?

September 16th, 2006, 10:12 AM	#9
Mitch Buss Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 184	I apologize for mot being able to describe what it looks like, but what you said sounds accurate. Do you have any ideas on fixing. I know I'm asking a lot, but I REALLY do not want to get another projector, this one I got for free and it is really nice. Thanks again for all of your help.

September 16th, 2006, 12:42 PM	#10
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Gosh Mitch. Can you fix a sewing machine by milling new parts? A projector is very much like a sewing machine in that it has very finely machined parts that move at VERY high speeds to very critical tolerances. Sorry, but I can't possibly begin to suggest how to repair the machine, not knowing what is actually wrong with it. How much is your time worth to you? Minimum wage? Then you are better off looking for a new WORKING projector. If this one was free, then it was worth what you paid for it. They are not hard to find on ebay, your local school will probably be glad to sell you one. 16mm film projectors are like old shoes in thrift stores. Seriously, You can probably pick one up for less than fifty bucks. As always with used equipment TRY BEFORE YOU BUY.

September 16th, 2006, 01:14 PM	#11
Mitch Buss Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 184	I finally figured out the problem. It has the autoload function and if you try to project with it still on auto load, the claw is not engaged. It does project now, however, I have another issue. The take up reel is spinning too fast and is pulling on the film as it is coming out of the projector. Is there a way to slow this down? Thank you very much for being patient with me on this.

September 16th, 2006, 01:43 PM	#12
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Make sure the take up real is in the proper position. That is, NOT in rewind position. It should have two positions... take up, and rewind. Rewind is generally the 'higher' position and take up is the 'lower' position.

September 17th, 2006, 04:53 PM	#13
Mitch Buss Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 184	It is in the correct position for take-up, it is just spinning too fast. Any other solutions? Thanks again for all the time you have spent with helping me Richard. I aapreciate it.

September 17th, 2006, 07:14 PM	#14
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Mitch. I don't know what to tell you. It's like performing surgery through email. I don't know what your problem is. Based on your 'discovery' that you had not actually moved the switch from 'Thread' to 'run' in the first place, I can't begin to guess what you might be doing wrong now. Did you read the instructions that are normally printed inside the cover of the projector? The take-up real is designed to tension the film. NOT to pull it through the projector. The film drive sprockets move the film in front of the gate... There must be a 'loop' on top of the gate, that allows for continuous movemt of the film in the sprocket, even as the pull down places the frame in the proper registration and holds it there, the sprokets past the gate move the film forward to the take up reel. The take up reel is on a tension spring... because the 'diameter' of the film spool will change as the film spools onto the reel, it's not engaged with a sprocket, but rather a tension spring or belt. This allows the speed of the reel to alter as the reel fills up. You say the reel is 'pulling the film too fast'. That's not really possible, I'm sorry to say. So your description of the problem leaves me stumped. Mu guess is that you have 'lost the loops' ahead and behind the gate. In that case, the film will be 'pulled' by the sprockets, while it is being held stationary in the gate. Make sure you have a loop ahead and behind the gate. (That means 'above' and 'below' as you look at the pressure gate.) Barring that - I suggest you go into the nearest high school, and ask to speak to an AV geek. IF you can't find one in a high school, go ask any fifty year old friend of yours who WAS an AV geek in High School to come thread your projector. Here's a few links that might help. http://www.paulivester.com/films/projector/BHmanual.htm The above is a link to Bell and Howell manuals and this http://www.archive.org/details/Threadin1950 Is an actual movie of threading a 16mm projector. It's an RCA unfortunately, but the principle is similar Google is your friend... use it. My work here is done.