FAKE HDTV's

[Christopher Lefchik]

Originally Posted by Duane Smith

Here's an interesting exercise:

Step 1: Go to Best Buy and count the number of HDTVs they have for sale.

Step 2: Then count the number of them that display 1:1 1080i....at any price.


Report back your findings. ;-)

Our HDTV, a 36" Sony CRT, displays 1080i. Am I missing something? Are we getting 1080i mixed up with 1080p by chance? Now I could understand skepticism over the existence of 1080p displays. My understanding is that they have just started to arrive, so they should be rare at this point. That, and expensive. ;-)

[John C. Chu]

In my opinion, Best Buy is one of the worst places to buy an HDTV if you haven't done your research first. It's loud, noisy and obnoxious.

None of the sets are set up correctly, they are usually in "full torch mode", blooming bright and overly saturated to draw customer's attention,[people should not look red should they?] and the sales people are not very knowledgeable.

In their defense though, how the heck does one learn each and every aspect of each product?

I can see why people don't see the difference between so called "HDTV" and regular old NTSC. They all look terrible at Best Buy.

The prices of HDTV monitors[no tuner built in] and HDTV sets have really gone down, and I'm not surprised to see them in Walmart or Target, but the chances of them having it set up correctly is slim.

One can always visit a high-end electronics boutique, that sells the good stuff, but you will pay a bit more.

But at least one can see what a good HD picture looks like and use that as a reference.

[Mike Teutsch]

I think perhaps what is causing the problem here, is misunderstanding of terms. When you speak of HDTV you are talking about the delivery method, (NTSC, 1080i, 720p, etc.), so to speak and not the resolution of the display.

Most of the HDTVs being sold do not have the lines of vertical resolution to display even 720p in full. Before I bought my Sony Wega, I researched probably a hundred different units. Most had less than 720 lines of resolution, and the few that were 720 of over were considerably more expensive. And yes, almost none had 1080 lines of vertical resolution.

My minimum standard, as recommended by a distinguished member of this forum, was to have at least 720 lines of vertical, so most sets were disqualified. I also wanted a built-in HD tuner. My Sony has 1380 X 768, or something close to that, don't recall off of the top of my head. It has 1,042,168 pixels or about 3.28 million dots.

I found only a couple of sets that had 1080 lines of vertical resolution and they were extremely expensive, and large.

The new sets are coming out faster and faster and they are getting more lines of resolution all the time. It's getting cheaper to make them with more resolution.

So it's not that some sets are fake, they just don't have as many lines of resolution, hence the lower price.

Maybe this will help, maybe it won't.

Mike

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Most of the HDTVs being sold do not have the lines of vertical resolution to display even 720p in full.

I checked the Best Buy web site and it lists 52 flat-panel HDTV displays, of which a spot check indicates all have at least 720 lines of resolution. Projection and tube displays are harder to assess, but it's definitely not the cast that "most" HDTVs are sub-720p.

[Mike Teutsch]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

I checked the Best Buy web site and it lists 52 flat-panel HDTV displays, of which a spot check indicates all have at least 720 lines of resolution. Projection and tube displays are harder to assess, but it's definitely not the cast that "most" HDTVs are sub-720p.

You are right, the vast majority are now, but some lack full horizontal res! But, I bought mine about a year ago. Told ya, they are getting better all of the time! The prices will come down too, but I paid just under $2,000 for my 50" Sony.

Now, go back and find the set that has 1080 lines of vertical, to display 1080i in full resolution. That is what most are concerned with, as they want to shoot 1080i now, and 1080p in the future! I found no sets even close to 1080.

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all HDTVs, I was trying to address the difference between display type and resolution.

Thanks---Mike

[Konrad Haskins]

Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik

Okay, gotcha. But if you will not accept the manufacturers' claimed resolution, then how would you determine which HDTVs would you accept as being true 1080i?

I trust the folks who when they have a tech spec page don't baffle me with BS but dazzle me with enough facts to leave a neo Ludites head spinning.

Here is what I want if they want my money.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/P...=&refurbished=

If that does not work it's the DELL UltraSharp 2405FPW.

[Mike Teutsch]

Originally Posted by Konrad Haskins

I trust the folks who when they have a tech spec page don't baffle me with BS but dazzle me with enough facts to leave a neo Ludites head spinning.

Here is what I want if they want my money.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/P...=&refurbished=

If that does not work it's the DELL UltraSharp 2405FPW.

OK, I'm confused now! I thought we were talking about HDTVs, computer monitors are another animal entirely!

Oh well!

Mike

[Christopher Lefchik]

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

OK, I'm confused now! I thought we were talking about HDTVs, computer monitors are another animal entirely!

My sentiments exactly. Besides that fact, listing the max resolution of computer displays has been standard practice for a long time, as there are so many different display resolutions in the computer world. In the television world that wasn't a concern because there was only SD for a very long time.

Now that we have HD there are several different resolutions available for televisions. You can usually find out which resolutions an HD set is capable of displaying from that TV's manual. If 480p is listed that would equal 720x480, 720p would equal 1280x720, and 1080i/p would equal 1920x1080. Maybe I'm naive, but if a set is listed as being able to display a certain resolution I take that as being accurate. (Konrad seems to take computer display manufacturers as being truthful when they list a resolution. I'm still not sure why he doesn't similarly trust television manufacturers.) And if it is true some HD televisions don't display full resolution (how could they even be called HD in that case?), I have no idea how one would find out which televisions those were.

[Konrad Haskins]

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

OK, I'm confused now! I thought we were talking about HDTVs, computer monitors are another animal entirely!

Oh well!

Mike

Mike this will plug into a "modern" digital cable box no problem. I don't want to pay for a tuner or inferior speakers, I don't need or want. This is the TV in a self confessed techno geeks house.

But if you want a "Real" TV with a tuner and speakers here is a Sony (even though I hate them for BMG virus), there is zero doubt what the native resolution of this TV is
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...me=specs&var2=

Philips and Toshiba failed to list a clear native resolution in the examples in my previous post. Which was the whole point of the thread in the first place. Just because a unit can handle HDTV signal without a native resolution you don't know what you're buying.

[Christopher Lefchik]

Konrad, that 24" Dell monitor and 23" Sony monitor might be okay for a bedroom or something like that, but they aren't as big as the HD display most people would get for an average home theater setup today.

BTW, I see that we posted our last two posts above at the same time. You might be interested in my previous post if you missed it.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Now, go back and find the set that has 1080 lines of vertical, to display 1080i in full resolution. That is what most are concerned with, as they want to shoot 1080i now, and 1080p in the future! I found no sets even close to 1080.

1080 lines of resolution is a different matter, but that doesn't mean the HDTV displays being sold are "fake." Plus if you accept the argument that 720p has almost the same perceived resolution as 1080i, then 1080i downsampled to 720p should look fine on all those 720p displays. Yeah, we'd all love to have full 1080p resolution, but that's not going to happen for most videographers or consumers any time soon. So in effect it's basically a 720p world for the foreseeable future, with an occasional exception for end users with expensive 1080p displays.

[Mike Teutsch]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

1080 lines of resolution is a different matter, but that doesn't mean the HDTV displays being sold are "fake." Plus if you accept the argument that 720p has almost the same perceived resolution as 1080i, then 1080i downsampled to 720p should look fine on all those 720p displays. Yeah, we'd all love to have full 1080p resolution, but that's not going to happen for most videographers or consumers any time soon. So in effect it's basically a 720p world for the foreseeable future, with an occasional exception for end users with expensive 1080p displays.

Correct, that is what I was saying. The sets aren't fake they just adjust the picture to appear on their screen size. They are HD, but the signals are resolved to watch on the TVs.

If you buy an HDTV with 1080i capability, it will show the image on whatever screen size it has, but willl not be 1080 lines of vertical resolution, because it is not capable of doing it. Even if you watch a 720p show, you do not see the black edges around the image, because the TV resolves the image to appear on the screen you have. For example my Sony 1360 X 760 or whatever, but the image I see does not have black or something around the normal 1280 x 720.

The picture still looks fine! It's all resolved and these are not fake HD sets.

Mike

[Duane Smith]

Originally Posted by Christopher Lefchik

Our HDTV, a 36" Sony CRT, displays 1080i. Am I missing something? Are we getting 1080i mixed up with 1080p by chance? Now I could understand skepticism over the existence of 1080p displays. My understanding is that they have just started to arrive, so they should be rare at this point. That, and expensive. ;-)

No, you're not missing anything....and No, I'm not getting 1080i and 1080p mixed up. I'm well aware that there are plenty of 1080 (i or p) capable sets out there; like you, I also have a 1080i-capable CRT.

I was just attempting to point out that Konrad's statement of "I would be amazed if these were doing 1:1 of 1080i for that price." has no actual bearing on whether the cheap sets he saw at Target were 'fake' HDTV units.....because the ability to display "1:1 1080i" isn't what defines 'real' HDTV. As he is well aware, the ultra-common 1280x720 resolution LCD TVs that Best Buy is chocked-full of are only capable of a 1:1 720 display, yet they are still 'real' HDTVs.

:-)

[Christopher Lefchik]

Originally Posted by Duane Smith

No, you're not missing anything....and No, I'm not getting 1080i and 1080p mixed up. I'm well aware that there are plenty of 1080 (i or p) capable sets out there; like you, I also have a 1080i-capable CRT.

I was just attempting to point out that Konrad's statement of "I would be amazed if these were doing 1:1 of 1080i for that price." has no actual bearing on whether the cheap sets he saw at Target were 'fake' HDTV units.....because the ability to display "1:1 1080i" isn't what defines 'real' HDTV. As he is well aware, the ultra-common 1280x720 resolution LCD TVs that Best Buy is chocked-full of are only capable of a 1:1 720 display, yet they are still 'real' HDTVs.

:-)

Ah, I see. Me understands now. ;-)

[J. Stephen McDonald]

Dealers have been pushing widescreen TV sets for the last dozen years, that
were implied as being HDTVs. But many of them were in fact, only glorified standard-definition sets. At some point, they started saying that they could receive HDTV signals. This may have been true, but they actually displayed only down-converted standard-definition pictures. Now that true HD is available OTA and from cable and satellite providers, there's many genuine HDTV sets on sale. But, you still have to beware, as there are a number of psuedo-HDTVs still being sold.

Regarding what is a true HDTV, the line has been stretched pretty low. All the consumer CRT sets available, have had limits on the number of horizontal scanning lines they can resolve. Due to the large dot-pitch of the screen phosphors (.64mm to .84mm, typically), they range from only about 570 to 670 scanning lines. The LCD, Plasma and other thin screen types can resolve 720 to 768 scanning lines. This will undoubtedly improve, as smaller screen dots will be used in the future. The dot-pitch on computer screens is usually about .22mm to .28mm. My new Phillips 10-inch portable widescreen DVD player has a dot-pitch of only .19mm and it is sharp. It has turned out to be very useful as a monitor for my playback VCR in editing.

The amount of horizontal resolution will also improve, as the dot-pitches of screens get smaller. On my 30-inch JVC CRT HDTV, the dot-pitch is .64mm.
It can resolve only 670 scanning lines (670 lines of vertical resolution), but its picture looked better than any other CRT I considered. It seems logical that it could also display only 670 lines of horizontal resolution. The dot-pitch size should place an equal limit on the number of resolvable dots(pixels) along each scanning line, as well. However, its picture looks sharper than that to me and I'd make a rough estimate that it could display about 800 lines of horizontal resolution, if I didn't know its specs. In any case, I'm very pleased with it and it will do nicely for me until it wears out. My 35-inch Mitsubishi CRT that I had before, lasted for 16 1/2 years. You have to draw a limit on how often you upgrade such things, unless you're filthy rich.