Who on DVinfo has the coolest website?

Michael Wisniewski · July 12th, 2004, 09:44 PM

Nice site Corey, but the pop ups are a bad idea. My pop-up blocker pretty much makes you're site un-viewable. With the blocker off, it just becomes a big mess of browser windows.

Nice site though, I like the graphic design.

John Locke · July 12th, 2004, 11:19 PM

Really nice site, Corey...design and content-wise.

Michael...I have to respectfully disagree with you. I'm all for blocking automated popups, but a popup window that's part of the site, holds content instead of ads, and is triggered only by a clicked link simply adds another dimension to the site. That's part of design, right? Operating outside the box?

Michael Wisniewski · July 13th, 2004, 12:16 AM

Yeah, you're right, I'll give it a chance, it could just be my pre-conceived notions at work :-)

John Garcia · July 13th, 2004, 01:28 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by John Locke : Really nice site, Corey...design and content-wise.

Michael...I have to respectfully disagree with you. I'm all for blocking automated popups, but a popup window that's part of the site, holds content instead of ads, and is triggered only by a clicked link simply adds another dimension to the site. That's part of design, right? Operating outside the box? -->>>

yes, thinking "out of the box", litterally, but if he wants to capture viewers utilizing pop-up blockers, it's really not a good idea to have your content pop-up in a new window.

it's all about best practices and accessibility. if youre willing to lose a few viewers due to inaccessibility, then so be it. id at least offer an alternative solution.

nonetheless, nice job.

John Locke · July 13th, 2004, 07:56 AM

It's just a matter of taste, John. Blocking all popups to me is like blocking all traffic on a street because some people speed. I'm looking forward to the next generation of the Net where we start developing not only in 2D, but in 3D (true 3D) and windows can be round, Apple-shaped, or whatever you want, show depth-of-field and perspective distortion, etc.

This current flat, catalogue-type Net will hopefully soon be a thing of the past.

Corey...opening a new "making of" thread about one or more of your favorite videos you've made would be an interesting read.

John Garcia · July 13th, 2004, 11:38 AM

Agreed, John. I absolutely hate conforming to best practice rules and catering to restrictions to ensure the widest accessibility possible.

There will always be new innovations that make these obstacles much easier to defy. I am looking forward to seeing net technology advance in the near future as well.

Robert Martens · July 15th, 2004, 12:02 PM

After viewing Mr. MacGregor's site, I have to side with John (Garcia), and Michael on this one. Having two pages, one that's your website and one that gets you IN to the website, is like having two doors on the front of your house (no, I'm not counting storm doors here; they do something); it adds one more completely unnecessary step to a process that needs only one.

As much as I despise these "floating turd-dropper" websites ("floating" 'cause of the popup, and "turd-dropper" 'cause of the useless window it leaves behind, stinking up the background...not that I'd want that background window to be closed, mind you, I just rather it not happen in the first place), I hate it even more when someone else resizes my windows for me. They are MY browser windows, and I have them the way I want them for a reason. Matter of fact, I browse with everything maximized, so Corey's site made the window smaller.

"Blocking all popups to me is like blocking all traffic on a street because some people speed."

I disagree. I find that blocking all popups is like blocking all traffic on a street (that goes through a school zone) because the vast majority of people speed, and travel that particular street for no good reason, considering there's another, much better way to get where they want to go. Anything you want to say with a popup can be said much more effectively, much more quickly, and much less annoyingly with a standard layout.

A moot point, really, since every popup blocker I'm familiar with lets you override the blocking for certain websites. And I didn't even have to do that here; Firefox was able to see the popup wasn't a bad one, and let it through.

"It's just a matter of taste."

True, to a point. I had blue text on a black background on my site for the longest time, simply because it fit the color scheme. "My motif must remain consistent", I said. Eventually, however, common sense made me realize what a ridiculous idea it was to begin with, since my visitor couldn't read anything.

In the case of sites like Corey's, the design is hardly so intrusive. But it's still mostly hated (nothing personal, of course). It doesn't matter how many individuals find the Ford Gremlin, Pontiac Aztec, or GMC H2 to be stylish vehicles, they are still hideously ugly, and most people don't like them. Many found Daikatana an enjoyable computer game, but it still--pardon my French--sucked to high heaven, and most of us saw this. The list goes on and on.

Likewise, I don't care if you fancy yourself an artiste, if you expect people to visit your website, you must either stick to traditional means of construction, or implement your innovation in a way that isn't detrimental to viewers. The site is the MEANS to an end, not the end itself. It only exists to convey information to the viewers, and if you let the site become the focus, creating a visually stunning but boundlessly awkward layout with the excuse of "I like it", you're being a dink, frustrating those who try to find things on your site. Feel free to "change the rules" if you truly think it necessary, but don't complain when we stay away in droves.

Focus on the content, dammit! "Form follows function." Most of the best stories of all time have stuck to the standard three-act structure. Perhaps not intentionally (I've always seen it as something that arises naturally from the story's needs, rather than something that you must strive for), but the fact remains that tried and true methods can yield impressive results. I know many here, myself included, hate it when self-styled "auteur" filmmakers do things differently; changing the status quo simply because they can, and making so-called "experimental" films, later whining about how "you just don't get it" when the finished product is horrible. The same holds true for websites.

Before getting you TOO furious, Corey, I would like to point out that of all my comments, I took issue only with your use of a popup, and some window-resizing script. The actual design of the site, and the content thereof, was quite nice. The rest of my complaints are of a much more general nature, and not directed at any one particular site I've seen displayed here.

John Locke · July 15th, 2004, 02:01 PM

<<In the case of sites like Corey's, the design is hardly so intrusive. But it's still mostly hated>>

Corey... keep in mind that the opinions you'll hear most are the negative ones. There's always a silent group out there that like what you're doing but don't speak up.

Robert, if I'm making a site to sell something like home appliances, I'll make it in a no frills, functional, easily-recognizable, easy-to-navigate format. But Corey's is a creative site and is designed in the spirit of creative expression and freedom from rules. That's the same philosophy behind why the Guggenheim museum doesn't look like a Wal-Mart.

John Garcia · July 15th, 2004, 02:01 PM

Good points, Robert. I too agree that accessibility and "form follows function" should be a priority when designing and developing Internet driven information vehicles.

It's all about using creativity and innovation to build something that not only meets the standards, but is truly unique.

All in all, to each their own. Keep up the great work.

Robert Martens · July 16th, 2004, 08:09 AM

"Most are negative ones."

Well, yeah. I find negative criticism helps me more than positive. As much as I may appreciate being praised, it's only when people complain that I have a chance to improve things. Of course, it's up to Corey to decide whether I'm right or wrong--if you feel people's critiques are off base, well, forget about 'em.

And when I said the design of his site was "mostly hated", I was incorrect, in a sense. The design is pretty cool, once you get in, it's just the WAY you get in that bugs a lot of visitors. That popup window style of website irks me, though I honestly can't tell you exactly why.

"Robert, if I'm making a site to sell something like home appliances, I'll make it in a no frills, functional, easily-recognizable, easy-to-navigate format."

You know, your site meets the mark for what I consider a no frills, functional, easily-recognizable, easy-to-naviagte format. While it is quite aesthetically appealing, I also find I have no trouble finding the things I need, and the different sections of the site load briskly (contrary to some Flash sites I've encountered).

In the end, my points boil down to this: unless you're creating a website AS a piece of art, I feel you should be making a concerted effort to encourage navigation friendly design. You are, after all, trying to show something to your fans. Whether it's home appliances that you need to move, or independent films you want to make famous, you're still trying to "sell" something, in various definitions of the word, to your audience.

Can't a site be artistically satisfying AND "transparent" (i.e. doesn't get in the way) at the same time?

I don't want to drag my comments out any longer than necessary, and get us too far off topic, so here's my site, the model of no frills, functional, easy-to-navigate, bland, boring, uninspired, contentless design, for those interested parties.

Jonathan Lennard · September 28th, 2004, 07:51 AM

I think cool may be different to other people, so I would hate to say that I have the coolest website around, but I probably do have the coolest website around here... not to sound like a dickhead, I must give credit to the guys that designed it with me.

my website http://www.jonathanlennard.com

the designers, and their other cool sites www.xxs.fr (they are French)

Michael Wisniewski · September 28th, 2004, 04:16 PM

Jonathan, love it, that is a cool site! freakin' French :-p The trailer was very funny and I like the rest of your work.

Alfred Okocha · September 28th, 2004, 05:25 PM

Browsing for info is mostly very tireing and boring. I'd really like, as boring as it may seem.., a standarized format how a webpage should look like, where to find things et.c.

I'll give you an example for you to see what I mean. You want to fly from A to B and as cheap as possible. So, you start your search on the www to see where you can get the cheapest deal. The problem is that for every airline you enter you'll have to waste a considerable amount of time just to get used to their system and where they have put the info..
Makes me want to pick up the phone and ask the simple question for a quick answer.. Of course you can' do that anymore.. (Browsing the computer voices by phone is even more tireing..)

Enough rant.. (I get truly upset when I think about hours wasted in pursue of things..)

July 12th, 2004, 11:19 PM	#77
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	Really nice site, Corey...design and content-wise. Michael...I have to respectfully disagree with you. I'm all for blocking automated popups, but a popup window that's part of the site, holds content instead of ads, and is triggered only by a clicked link simply adds another dimension to the site. That's part of design, right? Operating outside the box? __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

July 13th, 2004, 01:28 AM	#79
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	<<<-- Originally posted by John Locke : Really nice site, Corey...design and content-wise. Michael...I have to respectfully disagree with you. I'm all for blocking automated popups, but a popup window that's part of the site, holds content instead of ads, and is triggered only by a clicked link simply adds another dimension to the site. That's part of design, right? Operating outside the box? -->>> yes, thinking "out of the box", litterally, but if he wants to capture viewers utilizing pop-up blockers, it's really not a good idea to have your content pop-up in a new window. it's all about best practices and accessibility. if youre willing to lose a few viewers due to inaccessibility, then so be it. id at least offer an alternative solution. nonetheless, nice job. __________________ John Garcia

July 13th, 2004, 07:56 AM	#80
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	It's just a matter of taste, John. Blocking all popups to me is like blocking all traffic on a street because some people speed. I'm looking forward to the next generation of the Net where we start developing not only in 2D, but in 3D (true 3D) and windows can be round, Apple-shaped, or whatever you want, show depth-of-field and perspective distortion, etc. This current flat, catalogue-type Net will hopefully soon be a thing of the past. Corey...opening a new "making of" thread about one or more of your favorite videos you've made would be an interesting read. __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

July 13th, 2004, 11:38 AM	#81
John Garcia Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 199	Agreed, John. I absolutely hate conforming to best practice rules and catering to restrictions to ensure the widest accessibility possible. There will always be new innovations that make these obstacles much easier to defy. I am looking forward to seeing net technology advance in the near future as well. __________________ John Garcia

July 15th, 2004, 02:01 PM	#83
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	<<In the case of sites like Corey's, the design is hardly so intrusive. But it's still mostly hated>> Corey... keep in mind that the opinions you'll hear most are the negative ones. There's always a silent group out there that like what you're doing but don't speak up. Robert, if I'm making a site to sell something like home appliances, I'll make it in a no frills, functional, easily-recognizable, easy-to-navigate format. But Corey's is a creative site and is designed in the spirit of creative expression and freedom from rules. That's the same philosophy behind why the Guggenheim museum doesn't look like a Wal-Mart. __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

July 12th, 2004, 09:44 PM	#76
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Nice site Corey, but the pop ups are a bad idea. My pop-up blocker pretty much makes you're site un-viewable. With the blocker off, it just becomes a big mess of browser windows. Nice site though, I like the graphic design.

July 13th, 2004, 12:16 AM	#78
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Yeah, you're right, I'll give it a chance, it could just be my pre-conceived notions at work :-)

July 15th, 2004, 12:02 PM	#82
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	After viewing Mr. MacGregor's site, I have to side with John (Garcia), and Michael on this one. Having two pages, one that's your website and one that gets you IN to the website, is like having two doors on the front of your house (no, I'm not counting storm doors here; they do something); it adds one more completely unnecessary step to a process that needs only one. As much as I despise these "floating turd-dropper" websites ("floating" 'cause of the popup, and "turd-dropper" 'cause of the useless window it leaves behind, stinking up the background...not that I'd want that background window to be closed, mind you, I just rather it not happen in the first place), I hate it even more when someone else resizes my windows for me. They are MY browser windows, and I have them the way I want them for a reason. Matter of fact, I browse with everything maximized, so Corey's site made the window smaller. "Blocking all popups to me is like blocking all traffic on a street because some people speed." I disagree. I find that blocking all popups is like blocking all traffic on a street (that goes through a school zone) because the vast majority of people speed, and travel that particular street for no good reason, considering there's another, much better way to get where they want to go. Anything you want to say with a popup can be said much more effectively, much more quickly, and much less annoyingly with a standard layout. A moot point, really, since every popup blocker I'm familiar with lets you override the blocking for certain websites. And I didn't even have to do that here; Firefox was able to see the popup wasn't a bad one, and let it through. "It's just a matter of taste." True, to a point. I had blue text on a black background on my site for the longest time, simply because it fit the color scheme. "My motif must remain consistent", I said. Eventually, however, common sense made me realize what a ridiculous idea it was to begin with, since my visitor couldn't read anything. In the case of sites like Corey's, the design is hardly so intrusive. But it's still mostly hated (nothing personal, of course). It doesn't matter how many individuals find the Ford Gremlin, Pontiac Aztec, or GMC H2 to be stylish vehicles, they are still hideously ugly, and most people don't like them. Many found Daikatana an enjoyable computer game, but it still--pardon my French--sucked to high heaven, and most of us saw this. The list goes on and on. Likewise, I don't care if you fancy yourself an artiste, if you expect people to visit your website, you must either stick to traditional means of construction, or implement your innovation in a way that isn't detrimental to viewers. The site is the MEANS to an end, not the end itself. It only exists to convey information to the viewers, and if you let the site become the focus, creating a visually stunning but boundlessly awkward layout with the excuse of "I like it", you're being a dink, frustrating those who try to find things on your site. Feel free to "change the rules" if you truly think it necessary, but don't complain when we stay away in droves. Focus on the content, dammit! "Form follows function." Most of the best stories of all time have stuck to the standard three-act structure. Perhaps not intentionally (I've always seen it as something that arises naturally from the story's needs, rather than something that you must strive for), but the fact remains that tried and true methods can yield impressive results. I know many here, myself included, hate it when self-styled "auteur" filmmakers do things differently; changing the status quo simply because they can, and making so-called "experimental" films, later whining about how "you just don't get it" when the finished product is horrible. The same holds true for websites. Before getting you TOO furious, Corey, I would like to point out that of all my comments, I took issue only with your use of a popup, and some window-resizing script. The actual design of the site, and the content thereof, was quite nice. The rest of my complaints are of a much more general nature, and not directed at any one particular site I've seen displayed here.

July 16th, 2004, 08:09 AM	#85
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	"Most are negative ones." Well, yeah. I find negative criticism helps me more than positive. As much as I may appreciate being praised, it's only when people complain that I have a chance to improve things. Of course, it's up to Corey to decide whether I'm right or wrong--if you feel people's critiques are off base, well, forget about 'em. And when I said the design of his site was "mostly hated", I was incorrect, in a sense. The design is pretty cool, once you get in, it's just the WAY you get in that bugs a lot of visitors. That popup window style of website irks me, though I honestly can't tell you exactly why. "Robert, if I'm making a site to sell something like home appliances, I'll make it in a no frills, functional, easily-recognizable, easy-to-navigate format." You know, your site meets the mark for what I consider a no frills, functional, easily-recognizable, easy-to-naviagte format. While it is quite aesthetically appealing, I also find I have no trouble finding the things I need, and the different sections of the site load briskly (contrary to some Flash sites I've encountered). In the end, my points boil down to this: unless you're creating a website AS a piece of art, I feel you should be making a concerted effort to encourage navigation friendly design. You are, after all, trying to show something to your fans. Whether it's home appliances that you need to move, or independent films you want to make famous, you're still trying to "sell" something, in various definitions of the word, to your audience. Can't a site be artistically satisfying AND "transparent" (i.e. doesn't get in the way) at the same time? I don't want to drag my comments out any longer than necessary, and get us too far off topic, so here's my site, the model of no frills, functional, easy-to-navigate, bland, boring, uninspired, contentless design, for those interested parties.

September 28th, 2004, 07:51 AM	#86
Jonathan Lennard New Boot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: new York usa Posts: 22	"cool" is in the eye of the beholder I think cool may be different to other people, so I would hate to say that I have the coolest website around, but I probably do have the coolest website around here... not to sound like a dickhead, I must give credit to the guys that designed it with me. my website http://www.jonathanlennard.com the designers, and their other cool sites www.xxs.fr (they are French)

September 28th, 2004, 04:16 PM	#87
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Jonathan, love it, that is a cool site! freakin' French :-p The trailer was very funny and I like the rest of your work.

September 28th, 2004, 05:25 PM	#88
Alfred Okocha Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: London Posts: 427	Browsing for info is mostly very tireing and boring. I'd really like, as boring as it may seem.., a standarized format how a webpage should look like, where to find things et.c. I'll give you an example for you to see what I mean. You want to fly from A to B and as cheap as possible. So, you start your search on the www to see where you can get the cheapest deal. The problem is that for every airline you enter you'll have to waste a considerable amount of time just to get used to their system and where they have put the info.. Makes me want to pick up the phone and ask the simple question for a quick answer.. Of course you can' do that anymore.. (Browsing the computer voices by phone is even more tireing..) Enough rant.. (I get truly upset when I think about hours wasted in pursue of things..)